Am I the only one tired of instagibbing scat maxes

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by SpeedFreakPS0NE, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. Demigan

    1: A quick look already shows that Gorgons have less damage, less ROF, less magazine size, longer reload and a better accuracy while crouching but oh look worse when walking. So Gorgons dont have "similar TTK's". And you are again ignoring the fact that NC CQC is far closer than that of the TR&VS.
    So once again, bias at work. "Gorgons have similar DPS", you might as well say that pistols rival Carbines. Hell, pistols ARE closer to Carbines than Gorgons are to MAX AI weapons.

    2. TR&VS have range because they CAN EFFECTIVELY KILL a target within that range. And as has been mentioned many many times already, that range is at least twice that of the NC weapons.

    3. You think that having to reload after 2 seconds is a good thing? Or that the shield doesnt have an equip time where it isnt active yet and if you add the unequip time you are vulnerable half the time you are reloading anyway besides thr damage that bleeds through and the fact that it only protects the front?

    Also the TR/VS chances are wonderful as long as they stay out of 8m distance and just steadily keep unloading...

    4. I think that you should walk around those bases with Rangefinder. Just the stairs of the bananabuilding for example are about 15m. Literally every building fight revolves around the outside first and moving from building to building. And even fighting in a 30+m building gives you more "close" range the NC MAX cant fight in than that he is viable in.
    Also, AMP stations? Techplants? These bases are PERFECT Mid to long range combat bases, with CQC being barely possible anywhere.
    • Up x 3
  2. Demigan

    You can use this one: http://iridar.net/planetside2/weapons/shotguns/

    Or this one:http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/Slug_Ammunition
    I think the wiki is currently the most up to date compared to Iridars so I used those numbers.

    And if slugs really did all the damage without spread, they would be massively OP.
    • Up x 1
  3. frozen north

  4. adamts01

    Fractures are Vortexes aren't bad. No worse than Ravens anyway.
  5. adamts01

    One important thing that I didn't see covered in Demigan's links was exactly ow much damage a slug deals. On the weapon info screen in game you'll see something like "pellet count 6/2.5". If weapon damage is 100 per pellet, typical shells would deal 600 in total, while each slug would deal 250. As far as exactly how much range is gained, I don't know, but I've never found slugs to ever be a good option so I never bothered to find out. You have a crappy headshot multiplier even with slugs and tearing through a HA shield + Nanoweave will get you killed every time. They're sadly a terrible option.
  6. Who Garou

    You can't fire a weapon while you are using the Aegis Shield, so you can't insta-kill anything while it is active.

    I don't know. I've seen plenty of at least TR maxes being a pain at long distance to vehicles.

    Maxes don't behave the same in the same way that Main Battle Tanks and EFS don't behave the same from faction to faction.

    I would agree that for point defense, the Aegis is very useful, but that doesn't stop grenades being thrown over them or c-4 from being chucked in to the room.

  7. Nobalification

    We are talking about AI but whatever. When you started it. TR MAXes are usefull only against Air because of lockdown. Fractures are dealing low dmg and they aren´t precise as Ravens or Vortexes, but Vortex dmg is funny. Ravens on the other hand, are following your cursor. So theres more % chance that you hit your target. Yesterday 3 guys throwed c4 under the max, he raised his shield we click the button and he didnt died, his shield was still up. It was matter of 3 seconds. He saw us we are throwing c4s, then he raised shield and we clicked that button. You can´t shoot from Aegis, but you can survive nearly anything and even you can reload both guns behind it.
  8. frozen north

    As others have already mentioned, this more discusses AI then AV, but yes, TR MAX lockdown is good for AV.

    That being said, aegis shield is still a crazy powerful tool, since its a confirmed direct counter to at least 3 of the 4 biggest threats to a MAX suit.

    The four threats are rockets, sticky/AV grenades ( the roll and delay of the frag makes them a much weaker choice), long range infantry weapons fire, and C4.

    This shield completely negates the impact damage of a rocket ( decimators normally are able to 2 shot MAX suits with direct impacts). It is immune to being stuck by sticky or AV grenades, rendering both significantly less effective. It also eats long range infantry weapons fire, preserving your health very effectivly.

    Now, this is no longer really confirmed, but at least for a time, the shield would stop C4 damage if it faced towards the blasts origin point. Again, it is no longer clear if this is the case however, hence it being unconfirmed.

    You get that, and you can still reload while the shield is up ( last I checked). This means you can have a huge durability increase to help you through your weapon down time.

    Now, while ZOE and lockdown do give damage buffs, they also increase your vulnerability to all of these threats, be it directly or indirectly. In fact, there is a fairly strong argument to be made that ZOE and lockdown actually reduce your chances of surviving any combat situation where infantry is present, rather then increase it, which aegis shield does.

    To be clear, I am fine with the NC keeping their shield and shotguns the way they are, but I want to see the VS and TR not pay as heavy a price as they do to use their abilities. I want to see the VS and TR MAX suits be able to feel like equal to the NC MAX, rather then weaker.
  9. JibbaJabba

    The Aegis shield:
    Stops direct damage from rockets, not blast damage (see video earlier of aegis max dying to rocket) -Confirmed.
    Does NOT stop C4 regardless of facing. - Confirmed.
    Does NOT stop grenade damage regardless of facing. - Confirmed.
    It also does not stop bullets from back/sides, or those aimed carefully from the front such as the feet. -Confirmed.
  10. Liewec123

    it mostly stops ALL front damage, but it is quite unreliable sometimes.
    i've pulled it out before and been gunned down by small arms directly infront of me.
    plus if a c4 is slightly to the side then the damage won't be blocked, but it does indeed block c4 damage if you look at the c4 ;)
  11. JibbaJabba

    I have never seen the Aegis shield block C4. Doesn't stop me from uselessly trying every time.
    • Up x 1
  12. Who Garou

    Other people brought up the AV in the thread, I didn't start it.

    Maxs of the different factions have different uses - as I said.

    Because NC Maxes may be the best a point holding, does not mean that they the best for point capture or other uses.
    Generally, the factions are each built do do something well and point-holding does make sense in regards some of the other NC "powers".

  13. frozen north

    Here's the thing though. I take issue with the idea of different MAX's having different primary uses. To me at least, that feels like saying that each heavy assault is completely different, with one meant to be a raw HP tank, another an anti vehicle god, and another an infantry slaughtering power house ( as examples). And while yes, every unit has different tactics, units of the same type (MBT, MAX, infantry classes, etc) should be able to accomplish the same goals, even if its through different methods.

    And just a quick thing, yes, I realize the faction launchers are a thing, but keep in mind, they all focus on AV power, with the type of vehicle they work best against ( air or ground), being the only difference. Its a minor difference in specialization, not complete purpose.

    This is why I take issue with the way the MAX suits are currently balanced. Despite the NC MAX saving a lower potential AV damage, its also got the most reliable AV damage output to make up for it ( laser guided rockets). Plus, it has a shield that can absorb tank shells, bolstering its longevity against tanks.

    But with AI, the MAX suits are not in a rough state of equilibrium right now. Capping a point ( clearing out defenders, and getting to it), is better achieved by the NC then either the TR or VS right now, since they have a faction ability that is great for this, and their weaponry is very well suited to the close quarters of an objective point.

    Defending objectives presents a similar case of NC strength, since the shield deals with the barrage of munitions very reliably.

    True, the VS ZOE should be good for capping in theory, but since the damage you gain from having it active is less then the resistance loss you take ( 10% damage boost versus 20% resistance drop), the net result is still a loss. Lockdown can't move, so all its good for is suppressing a doorway during a point cap.

    And as a general rule of thumb, if the goal is to have each specialize in something different, then having one specific to AI and two for AV ( which to me sounds like what your saying), is not a great thing. People make the infantry side joke for a reason after all.
  14. JibbaJabba

    I think this may be the crux of the disagreement here.

    It just doesn't pan out this way in practice. Allow me to illustrate with an imagined example. The biolab (NC max dominates here or so everyone says). Let's say you are a MAX and you spawn in the spawn room, have to cross the dome and let's say cover the big stairs in the gen room. Everyone knows this drill, we've all done it a hundred times.

    Now picture the path you have to walk/fight to make this happen. There are about 3-4 spots along that path where you'll be turning a corner or otherwise have some edge that you can play peekaboo with. Example: coming in doorway at bottom of small stairs.

    In those spots the NC Max will dominate. The range is <5meters. Doubleshots from any gun combo will kill an infantry. Any maxes engaged 1:1 at that range should be a victory for the NC.

    Still with me?

    Everywhere *else* along that path the NC Max is at a disadvantage. Everywhere. If a TR MAX is standing just inside the door to the small stair you'll get him. If the TR MAX is standing at the top of the small stair he'll massacre the NC max. The shotguns just don't have the range.

    Crossing the biolab? TR/VS have better weapons.

    Inside the C point building (if that path is taken)? TR/VS weapons are about on par.

    The jungle area outside the spawn? TR/VS have better weapons.

    The corner between A point double-stack and the teleporter room? NC Max has an advantage.

    When he arrives at his desitnation top of big stairs, someone coming from the point room would come through that doorway in the 5m range and the NC Max would kill it. If enemies are coming from *any* other direction.... top of small stairs, ground floor, up the big stairs.... then the TR/VS Max would have an advantage.

    The theory is: That's indoors! That's a biolab! The NC Max dominates indoors short range.
    The reality: Indoors is STILL LONG RANGE for an NC Max.
    More reality: If you can get to a "killbox" room in some base your NC Max will do well .... but you have to actually get there... and the whole time you are trying you are at a huge disadvantage that other Maxes are not at.

    Pick a base, any base and it pans out the same way.

    Want a hilarious one? Try Ti Alloys.

    C'mon now. Point hold...dominate with your NC max, right? Go try and find out.....


    As I've said lots: I highly encourage you to play the thing you are asking to nerf. I've swallowed my own pride on a few losing arguments myself in the past and tried this. In every case, I changed my mind and ceded my position.
    • Up x 3
  15. frozen north

    I do see what you mean, but I also maintain that aegis shield can render much of those threats a mute point, or at least significantly reduce them. Like I said earlier on, aegis shield is amazing, since it reduces the effects of the biggest threats to a MAX, where as lockdown and ZOE increase them, in exchange for the hope of more damage.

    I also never said I wanted the NC MAX to be nerfed ( which I realize my words can easily be interpreted as). What I want, is for the VS and TR MAX to feel like proper competitors with the NC MAX at anti infantry, which can be achieved largely through their faction abilities. Like I mentioned before, what I want is some explosive damage resist to be given to the TR MAX while its locked down ( or just C4 resist even), and for ZOE to give equal damage buff and resistance nerf, instead of its current unequal state.

    Given that MAX suits are not in ideal circumstances as is, the last thing I want is to have any of them being nerfed. All I want is for them to feel properly competitive against each other, and against opponents when each is able to employ their preferred tactics effectively.
  16. JibbaJabba



    First, apologies if I've put words from others responses into your mouth. It happens in long threads like this.

    The Aegis shield is super helpful, yes. Most of what it does though is mitigate the other major disadvantage that I didn't really touch on: Sustained fire. The NC Max has small clips and long reloads. It's an eternity when faced with another max. The ability to "pause" a fight while you reload is the only thing that lets an NC Max hold it's own in 10m fights with other maxes.

    To clarify: Under 5m, NC max is gonna win. At about 5m the damage on an Hack/Scat max is about on par with say dual Mutilators in damage output. At about 10m, the other maxes will pull ahead in damage output and the range now means it's going to take multiple clips. The Aegis can be used to equalize the reloads on these 10m fights.

    The TR and VS max are just fine at close range. NC gets that spectacular "instagib" at ~5m but that's all it is: Spectacle. The TR/VS target is still just as dead.

    So all that is about the guns basically.

    Special abilities are a whole 'nuther discussion.
    Aegis is fine I think. If it could *directionally* block explosives like c4 it would be nice.
    Lockdown needs some tweaks (maybe extend the lock/unlock duration to something painful but grant heavy rocket/c4 near-
    immunity.)
    Zoe needs a complete overhaul. It just plain sucks. You VS guys have 100% support from TR/NC in this. It's ********.
  17. VhynSeven

    About that range thing on MAXes, I tried all 3 long range accurate weapons (Mattock, Mercy, Blueshift) in VR room, and tried to shoot at a target at ~30 meters (I used Sweeper implant for setting the range).

    Results :
    As expected, TR and VS MAXes mowed down the target in no time, barely 1 second at worst.
    NC MAX was more erratic. To be honest, it surprised me a bit, 2 shots from both arms can kill the target. But the next try required almost all shots from both weapons.

    NC MAX isn't as bad at range as I expected, but RNG can mess up things rather hard. And you have to consider that I was shooting at a stationary target in the open. So, to wrap things up :
    Being able to hit at range =/= being efficient at range.
    • Up x 1
  18. frozen north

    Agreed. Damage wise, TR and VS are where they should be ( trading raw CQC output for range and sustained fire), but abilities are a different story, since Aegis is currently the only properly useful one, especially against infantry.

    Fun fact: Aegis did used to be guaranteed C4 proof. I actually once saw an NC MAX stand in a door way, and tank 2 C4 and at least one rocket without dying ( something that not even top level ordinance Armour alone could allow you to do back then, even with the shield stopping the impact damage). Supposedly it still is, since this was never officially changed, but since C4 has changed as much as it has, its interaction with the shield is a little weird.

    Fun fact 2: ZOE has already been reworked twice since the games launch. Possibly three times actually.
  19. Pacster3

    You and your once in a blue moon situations. How often do 2 Maxes encounter each other ALONE over medium distances in a biolab? Like...never?
    Then you cross that free areas in 10 seconds with Aegis and some friends...and have CQC for the next 20 minutes. Once you are at the point you stay there....nobody can change that. It's not like you need to cross those rooms before every kill or something...
  20. Pacster3

    The question is why they left the second and third version on that long although it's been obviosuly a self-nerf in those versions(and why should anyone nerf himself while glowing like a christmas tree?). I mean that one is like the most obvious crap in game next to decoy grenade(but that's is at least not faction specific)....and the devs just leave it in that state.