Aircraftside 2

Solo aircraft get chewed for breakfast by AA

It's swarms, aka teamwork, that makes it OP.

Counter teamwork with teamwork and the counters once again work.

The problem is that when heavy air comes in, all too often there aren't enough people who pull AA.

Skyguard is understandable since you get stuck as AA... but Burster MAX can swap out for AI/AV when the air is cleared, and HA's with G2A can swap to other classes or loadouts.

You could have HALF the # of enemy players in the air (PLAYERS, not vehicles) take AA and take out several of them and chase the rest off in short order.

Usually there's only a grand total of 3-5 AA which is not going to do much to 3-5 Libs and 6 ESF's, particularly if they aren't focus firing and are just randoms firing at different targets.

Thats what the Vulcan did before they nerfed it into uselessness

I'd love a shredder on the lightings. Make it have a minimum elevation, so it can't really engage ground forces, and slap it on there.

There would be no reason to pull air then. Consider this: in a 48 plus fight, there are well over 100 people participating. What if there are 5 of such vehicles? That's typically the number of skyguards you see. Aircraft already instantly die to that. What you are talking about is longranged C4. That's silly you sound. If the lightning gets that... I want a maverick smart missile to drop on it. And after all that...
Where does that place the gal? Instant GiB too?

Edit: I'm starting to wonder why I bother responding.

Skyguard isn't completely useless against other armor. If you unload your skyguard rounds into a tank's rear you will be surprised how fast you can destroy a tank. However, I wouldn't try this strategy against an MBT unless you have backup. Skyguards will eat lightnings for breakfast focusing on their rear armor.

I still think G2A damage needs to be range based...and the G2A rocket launchers need to have lock on time adjusted by range...ie, that Lib hovering 50 meters over the Spawn Room nuking everything that sticks its nose out should take more damage if a Ground Pounder manages to live long enough to get a missile off...and at 50 meters, that lock on time should be near instantaneous...doing a equivalent amount of damage...Lib is a 3 man vehicle, therefore one missile should do 1/3 of it's health in damage at 50 meters...because that Ground Pounder is darn near certain to die getting that one shot off.

Its the same with afterburning ESF's...I was on the receiving end of a ESF yesterday that just popped his flares every time he came in to strafe...with a resulting immunity to lock on fire...even though he was 10 meters off the ground when he pulled out of his dive...then AB'd away faster then we could lock him...then he's circle around while his auto-repair fixed him up...IF we managed to hit him with small arms. We (six people in the squad) pulled a Sundy...blew it up by diving right into our AA...pulled harassers...same thing...just backtracked the tracers and blew them up...pulled two AA maxes...mine is a pretty well certed dual burster with max Flak armor...and while we were playing "Peek-a-boo" with him...a single infiltrator took all 3 points.

Make hunting Ground Pounders a risk/reward proposition to the Sky Gods...give us range-based damage and adjust lock on timers by range...if that Sky Warrior is within 50 meters, I should have a instant tone/lock on. Reduce their flare immunity time from lock ons based on range...the closer they are, the quicker their immunity wears off and they can be locked up by G2A.

The Ground Pounders need a creditable threat against the Lords of The Air...give the crops some teeth so the farmers are a bit more careful.

Well that's why I keep citing the difference between "skilled" and "reckless" pilots. Ground-based AA is a time limit on aerial presence. A skilled player will obey the time limit, while a reckless one will die to it. The fact that ground-based AA is able to reliably apply this zone-out pressure substantially reduces the ability for enemy air to do its job, so even when ground-based players feel they've failed to do much they're actually being fairly effective -- if my flak prevents that elite pilot from completely devastating my teammates, then I've been successful in my role even if it's a little less exciting than getting the kills.

As for lack of targets, yeah Bursters and Phalanxes kind of suck.

But Skyguards are mobile and accurate, and I often end up engaging infantry and sunderers with mine and if I'm near friendly armor, I'll add my DPS to theirs in eliminating enemy armor, since an isolated Skyguard against enemy armor will tend to die (though I've taken out plenty of mediocre Viper Lightnings and distracted MBTs.)

With Pure A2A ESFs, the concern of specialization is actually even less, due to being even more mobile. Personally I find current A2A ESFs to be a joke mostly because you achieve 100% air effectiveness by being ~20% as effective against ground. Whereas a typical nosegun+rocket ESF is like 95% air effectiveness with 100% ground effectiveness.

With a dual AV MBT, yeah you're committing pretty hard against ground targets. But it's a choice at that point and you know what you're getting into and there are less specialized options. And it only becomes a problem if the overall weapon balance doesn't correctly account for things (like the Pure A2A ESF problem, where specializing barely makes you better at killing air, but at a huge cost to anti-ground effectiveness.)

Also getting blown up by the thing you're hard countering because it can afford to fly at you, soak up damage and gib you.

Meh, I played early on when air-ground balance was game breaking atrocious. I know a handful of people who I tried to get to play who uninstalled in the first 30 minutes never to look back and who still mock me sticking with a game that would release in such a state.

I refuse to be farmed by air and I refuse to waste any more certs/SC on "AA" (should be "AD" air-deterrent) that is boring an ineffective (fool me once...).

So I choose to 1) stay indoors, or 2) move to another area, or 3) log off.

Plain and simple.

My hat is off to those that do AA work because I am certain that I have benefited from it but it is (certwise and statwise) an utterly thankless trash job. Here they are spending loads of certs on something very specialized that is relatively the best but, in absolute terms, garbage at performing that special role meanwhile they are trying to counter the objects at the top of the food chain that can engage and obliterate anything not indoors with relative impunity (only real fear often being "deterred", i.e. finding a farm elsewhere).

Nope, I have no patience for that whatsoever and vowed long ago that if I was going to continue playing PS2 I would refuse to play under those conditions. Not fun whatsoever.

Well certainly "ground-based Shredder" is a more exciting-sounding aesthetic than the ground AA we have now, but it seems to really overlap the existing weapon designs, which are rapid-firing bullets (Walker) or rapid-firing flak (Skyguard), and in both cases you have to lead properly to be effective.

While that doesn't rule out the ground-based Shredder design, it means there are likely at least a few other types of ground-based AA weapons that they should do first before getting to it.

As someone who frequently pulls a skyguard and has spent an absurd amount of certs into it I am very effective at taking down ESF's however unless there are other AA present a Liberator will eat me for breakfast and spit me out. If you argue the 2/3 or 3/3 is more powerful and should always win against a 1/1 vehicle then then I should by the same arugment do atleast 50% damage to the Liberator before I die assuming both vehicles start attacking each other at the same time with no rear damage. Also due to this argument a full AA sundy with a driver and 2 gunners should always win against a 2/3 or 3/3 liberator (surprise not even close). I'm not even going to get started on the fact that 2 or 3 skyguards cost several times more resources to pull.

This is not the case, many times I will go down in a single pass before i can get off a full magazine. Tank buster approach with a belly gun finisher. I have seen this happen numerous times. Now before you start posting non sense about placement and what not I spend quite some time looking for optimal places to deploy where ground cover is accessible.

I argue the liberator should not be the counter so the skyguard. The skyguard already has a major counter, the MBT. A MBT will eat a skyguard alive. I think since we argue the combined arms race that If you bring a liberator to the field, then I bring a skyguard to counter (dedicated AA), it would take either infantry or a MBT to counter my move (as is already the case). Guess what happens when i start to light up the sky? I usually end up getting hunted down by a nearby tank or become C4 bait due to focusing on the sky instead of my surroundings. Sounds an awful lot like rock paper scissors doesn't it? Except it isnt, not even close. Those in the liberators feel like they are entitled to supreme power.

It has been stated time and time again that the same loadout in the liberator can counter multiple threat sources, Infantry/Air/Ground vehicles. If you don't believe this is true take a peek at the kill counts of these dedicated liberator teams. The PS1 liberator could not drop bombs unless the plane was mostly level. If the populace is so bent on air being the counter for this damn thing then i say put the same restriction on the belly guns for the liberator. Make it so that belly gun can only shoot when the liberator is mostly level. This mechanic would require the liberator to fly with air support.

From the complaints I've seen, it appears that the following are the perceived problems.

1. libs issues
~ dalton too good all around
~ Lib too good at A2A
2. ESF issues
~ little is sacrificed for A2G options relative to their potency

both 1 & 2. specialization isn't truly necessary or that rewarding.

3. lone AA units are ineffective, though they do scale very well
~ super specialization isn't that rewarding in this case


Brainstorming possible solutions...
I am not advocating for them, just putting them up for discussion

• Reduce Dalton's effectiveness vs. infantry by either reducing splash or shrinking the splash radius. Shrinking the splash radius would also nerf high altitude bombing against vehicles except in cases where the gunner has good aim.
• Give the lib's belly gun a larger CoF. This would force the lib to be closer to reach its maximum efficiency
• Increase the rate at which a lib falls when going "belly up"

• Change rocket pods to damage infantry only (HE), leave hornets for anti armor purposes
• Give rocket pods a larger CoF to force ESFs to be closer to their targets

• Currently, flak weapons deal the same damage regardless of distance because it is explosion based. If something could be implemented so that the explosion has damage falloff, then flak could so a close range damage buff along with a long range damage nerf. If properly implemented this would allow AA units to decisively deny roughly the same area while maintaining a kill zone closer to the AA unit. This would reduce the long range coverage benefit of massed AA and would necessitate proper spacing of AA units if a large area needs to be denied.

Flak has falloff - its the massive cone of fire and travel time. That's why skill based bullet weapons could be much more effective (but aren't) because you can miss even at close range (Skill floor is lower and ceiling is higher).

It does. With that many ESF pilots using the Coyotes, A2G pilots encounter a huge problem when they meet a good A2A pilot especially with Coyotes.

If it is within 50 meters just use the Decimator. it Instagibs ESF and takes 50% of the Libs health.

If its within 50 meters, anything can own it

on PTS Skyguard owned Libs in about 2 clips, even at long ranges, pilots whined and skyguard got nerfed to the ground, then they tweaked it a little and gave damage xp so now its not completely worthless
I get many assist with my skyguard, but the only 2 reasons I use it is for damage xp and all air (except galaxy) ruins gameplay

It does, but not by enough.

And that's the core balance issue with them, that an ESF can dominate ground targets without being all that vulnerable to retaliation from enemy air.

I think you missed the part where it isn't flak. It'd be like a double walker Sunderer, which if I could control both instead of having a bunch of A.D.D. darwin award winners always manning the turrets, would completely outperform a skyguard at its intended role.
And you don't see walkers shooting down birds at super-long ranges, so you're the one being ridic.

This. Also team-work don't seem to work to well either. I played on one of my VS toons earlier today and me and another MAX both used Dual-Bursters to try to stop the Liberators in the air helping their outnumbered ground-allies cap points while the VS died trying to make it from the spawn to... anywhere.

I have extended mags on my dual bursters. I emptied my magazines into one right before he killed me and so did the other guy. That's 3 standard-cap magazines of flak into the liberator. When I died, he had half of his health left.

I fail to see the fairness in needing 5 or 6 dual-burster MAX'es to one-clip a Liberator, when that Lib can have one person flying and one more shooting the MAX'es one by one and easily get out before they get killed, only to repair and move back for more.

I notice all this talk and nobody even mentions G2A lockons anymore. Why does SOE always nerf something from being useful to being useless instead of being balanced?

I was stood today staring at maybe 3 to 4 libs farming a base not too far from where I was sat with my AP30 Grounder. All of them were out of lockon range despite being apparently pretty close. Those that flew into range occasionally flew out of range before I could lock.

I got one missile off by luck and the pilot just pitched down slightly so my rocket arced straight into the ground.

To be honest, my most effective AA as an infantry unit is using my LMG against low flying/strafing ESF's.