Aircraft vs infantry is out of hand

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Zizoubaba, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. Trigga

    But theyre not.
    Making up random balance does not support your argument.

    Your still seperating them tho demi.
    Its not a question of 'how can i use my infantry to respond'.
    The question is 'how can i respond'.
    Sorry but its not been proven anything, show me your proof, shouldnt be hard if theres no much.
    Nanites arnt territory based any more.

    Yes i would be saying that, if the devs had designed their game to be like that.
    And if i then decided the game wasnt to my liking i would simply not play, why do i keep having to say this to people?
    O and btw demi, these arnt my ideas, this is how the game plays.

    So less than 1% of teamwork and you still cant manage it.
    Besides, its what the game offers, command chat can also be used to request reinforcements.
    Miller has discord channels for commanders to join, i would presume the other server have similar, people do use teamwork.
    You example of super powered tanks is nothing to do with this.

    Yes they do.


    Now youre reaching the realm of ridiculous, theres no way you can say how 99.99% of the playerbase plays.


    Not lying, you just dont want to hear it.
    Thanks for trying to discredit me tho, i thought you were better than ad-hominen.

    I never get farmed by a vehicle, be it an MBT, a lightning, a lib, an ESF, doesnt matter.
    I never spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die, spawn die.
    If i see it on the map as i spawn, or hear it shooting, or die to it once, i know to not take that route again. 'O but you have to thats how the base is designed', you are correct it is designed like that, but you dont have to follow the arrows.
    Whats stopping you pulling your own vehicle, or asking a squad mate to fly a valk overhead of it, or getting a lib with a gunner to deal with it? Why cant you get infil and sneak to the point? Why cant you ask on command for a gal drop? Why cant you place a defensive request?
    If all you can think of is 'run down that path and die again' its on you.

    So youre good in a lightning, why exactly shouldnt you be rewarded for that?
    So you avoided c4, great good job, pretty easy if youre awake.
    What about the MBT that came looking for you? What happened then?


    Define easier please.
    As far as im aware all require WASD and a left moue button.
    Or are you really going to claim that infantry play is complicated?

    Fighting MBT vs MBT can be a real challenge, and tbh requires more thought and therefore more skill than infantry lag wizardry.

    You can play what you want, as long as its not HE spamming the spawns right?
    But you must be aware of the limitations of your chosen playstyle, class, or vehicle. You either work around those limitations, or you avoid the situations where they mean something.
    Also youre seperating them again, why should a tanker only play tanks? Why cant that tanker assist their infantry if the base design allows it?

    Sorry but thats exactly what you want, a weapon that would have on average equal vehicle kills per hour (or whatever metric you hold close) with the Titan AP, how else would they compete?
    So people keep mis-interpretting you constantly about this suggestion?
    Are you sure youve explained it well enough?

    Im confused, you want to change the balance but the status quo remains the same?
    Not sure you can eat your cake and keep it m8.
    I have not intentionally insulted you.


    So we cannot because of realism that doesnt even matter.
    Sorry :confused:.

    Thats 3 attacks of me rather than my opinion.
    Tut tut tut.
    4.

    All of this said, you failed to address my point.
    Which was, play the game as the devs have provided it.
    Dont play your own arbitrary set of rules and then complain at others for not doing so.
    If you want to moan TR have no long range carbine then fine do it, but please dont try to change to very fundametals this game is designed around, i happen to like it how it is, as do many others who play it.
    Your right to your opinion is not greater than mine, even if your ego says otherwise.
  2. Trigga

    I dont consider myself correct, im defending the game as it is now, because i enjoy it.
    If the devs decide they want to change it, whether based on feedback or not, i will acept that and either play it or i wont.
    Is it really that hard for you to understand some1 enjoys the game?
    I dont want the devs only listening to feedback from people who dont enjoy the game.

    Not enjoyed dying lol, enjoyed the challenge of removing that threat.
    I enjoy the fact that all of a sudden my safe little space is smashed, and i have to adjust to it.
    The constant change of tactics and approach is what keeps me playing.

    Of course it isnt, what is opinion is whether you enjoyed the game then, i did, you obviously didnt and still dont, yet still play it for some reason. :confused:
    And they can play however they like, but should learn their limitations (i feel this point is being repeated now)
    Subjective opinions are just that, its just as much my right to advocate against changes.
    So what is this the pre-school playground? Are you just going to throw my points back at me or are you going to make one?
    They are, take your tank platoon to Mani and try and capture it without exiting the vehicle.
    Infact try and take any base you can think of sans andvari without exiting your vehicle.
    Come back to me with what happens.
    Do you have a degree in skirting around someones points?
    Vehicles cannot take bases, they cannot, its a fact. Skewing the world doesnt make you right.
    And how many times have you spawned at a base to see 100 infantry blocking all access to the point?
    What makes that ok?
    Ive already listed bases where vehicles have a lesser impact, you exagerate the amount of bases vehicles can lock down spawns.
    Any AMP station.
    Any Bio Lab
    Arguably Eisa.
    Scarred Mesa
    Split Peak
    Auraxis firearms
    Watersons
    I could go on but im not going to think about it for any longer

    But it doesnt tho, why are you claiming this?
    Your refusing to see any angle that doesnt fit your pre-conceived notion, your ignoring what happens in-game and then denying it happens.
    Kill wh**** dont win alerts.
    And if it did solely cater to those players, the answer would be because thats what the game offers, like it or dont.
    This is why i call you conceited, your self opinion is high enough that you feel if you personaly dont enjoy something it should change to suit your will, without a slight bit of consideration for the people who do enjoy it.
  3. Trigga

    PS
    I tried to reply to you based on your post, but i wasnt 100% sure what you were replying to since you changed my quote to some random words i didnt write.
    I will not be making the same effort if you do that again, just so you know.
  4. Campagne

    That's not logical. Obviously you do consider yourself correct. You wouldn't be defending the claims if you disagreed with them.

    I enjoy the game a fair amount. One of my favourite FPSes, despite the massive flaws in every aspect. Don't play as much as I used to, but that's more the fault of other games than it is PS2's. :p

    Once again, players whom do not leave their vehicles are not trying to take the point. They don't care about objectives, they care about easy kills.

    That's rich coming from you. There is so little substance in your post I have to chop it up to maintain some semblance of logical flow.

    Additionally no, technically that's not a fact at all. No only are there "bases" with only vehicle capture points but a multitude of bases with an additional capture point. Once again, if payers cannot or will not press E when sitting right outside a point room to capture it, they are not going for the objective under any circumstance.

    Infantry spawncamping infantry is a different issue. That has nothing to do with infantry-vehicle balance, just overpop/zerg issues.

    Well no, not at all. But furthermore to call back to the original point of this thread, air can spawn camp almost any base and where they can't they easily control all open ground as defenders won't have line of sight until they are exposed.

    This is a bit ironic. You're continuously ignoring the fact that vehicles dominate infantry in all aspects where ever "physically" possible. In almost any base outside of a domed biolab vehicles are able to massively influence fights and lock down infantry without difficulty. Yet you claim this does not happen, despite the fact that any single player could log in to the game during a time with decent or greater pops and witness it firsthand.

    Secondly, the game doesn't know who it's catering to. It tries to get the MLG crowd but fails somewhat, and aside from that it's mostly random changes most players don't like. The CAI was very poorly received both on the PTS and live. The game does cater to the awful Skynights, I suppose they're considered "MLG" enough, because they get everything. Do you just sit there complacently when the government proposed a change you dislike? Do you just accept the status quo without hesitation? Challenge things you disagree with.

    Kill ****** don't win alerts but killing does.

    Once again, the irony is palpable.

    That's fine, you've already lost much of the effort originally put into the previous posts. Nothing lost. :p
  5. Trigga

    Theres a difference between wanting the game to stay as it is, and believeing i have all the answers.

    Agreed, but the point was they wont win alerts, they wont take bases, they wont make progress on the map.
    Therefore the game hasnt caterred to them solely, as its actually prevented them from completing objectives.

    There are 0 capture points that absolutely require you to be in a vehicle, you could walk all the way there as infantry and not be restricted from caping the point.
    All cap points are infantry points, since infantry can cap them.
    If they really wanted 'vehicle bases' then once youd removed all the vehicles from the point youd be able to re-take it, but you cant because the infantry have exited and can stop you by just sitting on the point, in other words you still need more infantry on the point than your opponent, vehicles or not.
    Its not the same the other way, if you remove all the enemy infantry from a infantry point, but leave 10 enemies sat on their flashes, they cannot stop you taking the point back. If they dont hop off their flash, you can take the point back 10v1, doesnt work the other way around.

    Thought youd say something like that.
    But you havent answered my question, what makes it right for infantry to do that but the devils sin for vehicles?
    Dont forget its the same players, they just decided to 'press E to enter a vehicle'.

    I guess spawn camping lockons, and spawn camping dual burster MAXs are no longer an issue then, ill remember to let my air friends know, hopefully they believe me and dont just laugh.

    No im not, im saying im fine with this, its how the game plays.
    Plus it gives me a reason to jump into a vehicle and counter their vehicles so my infantry can move up.

    Agree about MLG, i dont think this game fits that arena.
    It caters to casuals pretty much, i believe that is their thoughts on it, they want the massive crouds that more casual games like COD get, but in reality the game requires quite decent computers to run it properly, so theyll never get the casuals.
    I just play what i see infront of me, a combined arms FPS where counters exist for everything youre doing.
    This isnt 'the government' m8, its a game.
    For the quintillionth time, you dont have to play the game if you dont want to.
    I have to live under the rule of a government, i dont have a choice in this respect, so its only right for people to speak up.
    No1 is forced to buy a computer, pay for the internet, download planetside 2, or to click onto planetside 2.


    Subjective, if your empire is only killing inside 1 bio lab and is ignoring the rest of the map, you lose that alert.
    Alerts =/= killing, infact the empire that can take the most territory without getting caught up in a fight tends to win, but alerts discouraging fights is another topic entirely.

    Do you think snidey lines and little smilies win you some sort of an award?
    At least i explained why i thought you were being conceited, youve just repeated what i said like a child does.


    Also i feel i should re-iterate.
    Im not giving my opinion per-say, im telling you how the game plays.
    If i have an opinion its this; i play whats infront of me if i like it, if i dont then i dont play it.
  6. Demigan

    It's to illustrate that your argument of "just use teamwork" does not always apply, in fact it never applies without a look at the rest of the game first. And just because my exaggerated version of the status-quo is exaggerated does not mean that the current tanks might not be too powerful.


    I am not seperating, I'm just leaving out useless information. We are talking mainly about what infantry can do when faced with vehicles. Aircraft vs vehicles? No problem they can escape or engage them. Vehicles vs vehicles? No problem. Infantry vs vehicles? Massive huge fornicating problem. So I'm adressing that part, the part where you claim "it's all empire vs empire" without really thinking of what the empire consists off.

    And again the answer to the question of "how can infantry respond" is "with practically nothing". Especially not with the made-up fantasy of "ask others of your empire to fix it", which is a pathetic excuse for both teamwork and a game.

    But the game isn't designed like that and even if it was you should be protesting against it. Just because something is the way it is does not mean it should stay like that. What the hell are you even doing here on these forums if you don't want anything to change? If anything no matter how OP or UP it is gets your stamp of approval with "but the devs designed it that way so it's OK"?

    And no Trigga, that is not even remotely close to how the game plays. I don't know what you've been playing but I guess you've been having fantasies and mixing them up with the reality within the game.

    The problem isn't that it can't be managed, the problem is that the exact thing you want to achieve with it is a fantasy.

    Also if we have 1% of a phone network, do you think you can manage a call to anyone...? The fact that we have practically nothing to really do teamwork with is a problem that causese most things in the game to fail, it does not mean "oh you only have to execute 1% so it's easy". Seriously why do I even have to explain something as simple as that?

    It's no surprise that you have these fantasies and confuse them with reality when you think that command chat is any effective at all.

    Talking to eachother =/= teamwork.
    Being able to do a small amount of teamwork with the little tools and mechanics given =/= a good system for teamwork. Why do you think that the most effective method of "teamplay" is "throw as many individuals at one target till it falls"? How can you even try to defend this pathetic excuse of teamwork?

    Again, it's to illustrate a point, but small surprise even such an over-the-top example goes way waaaaaay over your head.

    A tank with a gunner does not mean they work together.

    But hey here's something: Show me some video's of that teamwork that does not consist out of a bunch of tanks all just sitting nearby eachother and at best saying "oh there's an enemy over there".

    I can tell you that 99.99% of the playerbase will strafe while gunning for example, I can also tell you that if something is nigh non-existant because all the tools are inadequate, that 99.99% of the players will not do it, even if you have the fantasy that this somehow magically happens somewhere.

    hypocrite.

    Considering that you have been lying and substituting fantasy for reality it wasn't "trying" to discredit you. Also I was gauging the chances of you lying based on past experiences, and I was right. Just look at your next piece of text, it's another lie!

    Nope, a lie.

    Your reading comprehension is slipping again. Read what the hell I wrote and try to formulate an actual reply.

    The base design that doesn't allow safe spawning, the fact that I'll have to fight an overpop of enemy vehicles if I pull from another base, the fact that trying to gather enough people for an effective counter assault takes so much time and effort that you'll have lost the base you would try to defend and will already be balls-deep in enemy tanks by the time you've got a half-decent force to try and fend them off, if you don't get hunted down by enemy tanks that look for people who try to mount a counter-offencive.

    Oh and don't forget, even before CAI when the Lightning HE was worse at anti-tank combat, I scored as good with the HE Lightning as the average player did with the AP Lightning. I'm good in tanks, I know tanks, I've played tanks with and without an outfit and friends, I know how they play and I know how your fantasy is just that, a fantasy.

    Because not everything is always constantly available and a drop on a hot plate is just a drop on a hot plate while you only have a thimble of water available. You can scream potential counters all you like, if they aren't effective enough it doesn't matter.

    Your reading comprehension again, I specifically said the opposite of "keep going down the same path again" and how being force out of the same path is the problem that helps the attackers.

    I should be rewarded for being good in a lightning, I should also be rewarded for being good as infantry. Why is that concept so hard to understand? You are trying to force infantry to immediately switch to tanks and aircraft and dropping infantry from valks or taking enemy points as infiltrator, but this is neither constantly available nor can you magically teleport everywhere to get it available.

    And before you say it, you should also be rewarded for being good as infantry when not fighting infantry.

    Are you serious? You need less situational awareness as there's less things that can hurt you, the things that can hurt you give you time to react in 95% of the cases, you are faster, more lethal, you don't suffer from COF, recoils and ADS/hipfire choices, you suffer from less shell drop than the infantry AV, you have more velocity on your weapons than infantry have on their AV weapons and have more chances to kill the infantry before they even deal enough damage to become a threat and in tank vs tank combat you still need far less situational awareness to wage war. This is why the most used tactic is "sit behind cover, pop up, fire until one is threatened, go back behind cover". Even flanking requires less situational awareness than infantry simply because there's less places to move, hide or engage from.

    That's like 11 or more ways tanks are easier already, and you somehow missed them? How can you have driven a tank and not realized how much easier tanks are than infantry?

    Oh yeah, aircraft use WASD as well! And they are completely the same as infantry and tanks! They are all the same! Yep yep!

    Seriously I'm not going to bother with the rest of this garbage.
    • Up x 1
  7. Campagne

    If you want the game to stay as it is, you would have to think that would be the best idea.

    They also do not make up the majority of players. All that is required is that a rando wanders over to the capture point. They are more than free to play as they wish without thought of anything else and not suffer lose because of it.

    I hear this argument a lot. If there were points which required a vehicle to capture, the points would have to have an indestructible universal vehicle terminal built-in to the base of the point. Because otherwise the point, the entire hex, could be empty and a player could be standing on the uncontested point and not be able to capture it solely because there was no means of doing so. I'm not confident a universal terminal would even be possible. And given some of the distances between vehicle points and vehicle terminals...

    And then there is the matter of requiring resources to capture an empty point. Vehicle-only capture points don't exist because they are an inherently flawed idea.

    Infantry don't count for more than vehicles on vehicle points.

    You'd have imagined so because it was obviously a loaded question with a single legitimate answer. If my outright condemnation of it was not clear enough for you, infantry spawncamping infantry is not acceptable either. That is not fun for either side.

    Bursters and lock-ons and such have to sit in spawnrooms because they are too ineffective to kill a single ESF before being killed themselves. If they didn't have to being in the spawn, they wouldn't be. Hence why they almost always are and do not exist where they simply cannot be.

    Government, corporation, hobby, doesn't matter. Don't just accept the status quo if it does not align to one's own interests. Life is mostly ****, don't let it be if you don't have to. :p

    I don't know if it ever occurred to you, but telling someone not to play the game doesn't make them want to play the game any less.

    Try to win an alert without your faction killing anyone. :rolleyes:

    They convey tone. If I say "Don John is a real bastard" the meaning and tone of the statement when simply read off a page are ambiguous. The quotation here is a joke, but one might not realize that otherwise.

    "The gameplay is like this" is describing the gameplay. "This is fine" or "this is not fine" in an opinion. You are directly stating an opinion.
  8. JibbaJabba

    Ok... Banshee pilots...
    Question for you guys.
    I'm on the ground, doing my biz... taking my point or farming my farm or whatever. Then you kill me. Several times. This sucks for me obviously.
    What do you recommend I do about this suckage?
    (if you're not a banshee pilot, don't answer plz..)
  9. DeadlyOmen

    From the ground's perspective, three guided missle HAs and one or two skyguards supporting a platoon-sized operation will easily give punch to anti-air fire.

    If one is alone when they get smoked, then they got what they asked for.

    In a team game, the team that doesn't operate as a team gets beat up.
    • Up x 1
  10. strikearrow

    Go pull an ESF and kill the mosie - over and over again xD. A banshee mosie is at a major disadvantage in an A2A fight against a stock nosegun ESF.
    • Up x 1
  11. Inogine

    As a guy that gets blown up on occasion by air running a harasser and a fair bit on foot. I think it''s mostly fine. It's super annoying to see them shooting out of my AAA range knowing there's nothing I can do about it, but for the most part... If I want air gone, I can get it gone. I'll at times pull a harasser with a ranger to pick at air until they vacate the area and normally they do. If I need to, I'll chase them out of the area a bit with that speed. On my sundy I have a grenade launcher and a ranger cause I want air to stay away. Generally these work out for me, but don't do as well against tanks as say... a sundy outfitted to deal with armor to a degree. (Ol' Battlebus.) And yes, I said ranger. Gotten many a kills on ignorant Gals and Libs as much as ESF.

    "I have to give up what I want to do to go take care of a problem."

    Is this not working as intended? You can't just ignore something and hope it disappears, you gotta deal with it. I'm often that guy that notices the enemy is spawning in from somewhere then takes a vehicle to go hunt the spawn where then I take appropriate measures to kill it. If that's sitting at range plinking away at it, so be it. If it's charging in close to drop explosives on it, so be it. If it's a combination of the two in rapid order to deal with that pesky shield that almost always ends in my death, SO BE IT.

    You can't just ignore something pounding away at you. If you do, you're gonna die a lot. Looks to be working as intended to me.

    Oh and if it's a swarm of air coming in that overwhelms your single AAA. Perhaps your team might do with a bit of learning proper composition.
    • Up x 1
  12. LodeTria


    Pull Burster max. When the aircraft inevitably goes away switch to AI and enjoy your new EZ farm.
    • Up x 1
  13. LordKrelas

    So, One air-unit comes up, Anyone on the ground must now be dedicated to Anti-air, to scare it away.
    It lost no nanites, it didn't lose their kill streak, and proceeds to maul another person until they drop everything to AA.

    Mean-while a tank causes a problem, and it just dies on over-committing, dies to enemy AV fire, which isn't requiring sacrifices or focus-fire from an entire group to handle a single one-man Lightning, nor even a 2-man MBT.
    An MBT can be attacked without a one-sided massacure - an ESF not so much.

    An MBT or just a lighting tank, obeys terrain, and isn't as fast as an ESF. It can minutes, to reach anywhere, AV is plentiful, as it's not sacrificing ability to kill common threats for engaging unpredictable threats.
    Which (the ESF) can travel across the entire map, to murder someone, in under a minute.

    So upon spawning, the ESF, a single lone wolf, dictates the gameplay of anyone it comes across.
    A Tank, doesn't: Even if you are going after a tank, you didn't render yourself nearly unarmored to make it run away.
    You are killing , taking away their nanites, their kill-streak, as you are likely destroying the tank than it being able to out-run AV sources.
    AV is all capable, on all platforms, infantry, to vehicles, to aircraft, of actually killing a tank or vehicle.

    A Max doesn't even dictate it either; Infantry are less effective, but they aren't having to switch their entire weapon (or pay 350 to 450 nanites) to specialize in attacking (not killing) the Max unit.
    The single thing designed for Anti-Max, is the Archer; It's also able to kill infantry relatively well, it deals damage to other vehicles, and is quite handy; It is also the weapon that kills a Max the fastest outside of vehicles.
    So, for the Archer; You trade some AI firepower for universal use, and the BEST odds of KILLING not driving away, the threat.

    An ESF, Liberator, or even a Valk, however: You are expected to pull a 450 nanite max with Dual-bursters (Which will not kill the ESF, unless it sits there still for a long *** time, or can't engage the max at all)
    Which will becomes useless, as the Aircraft can escape instantly: It can also strike & leave inside seconds.

    Or pull an 350 nanite AA Tank, which has the same issue - and isn't able to hide in buildings, so it's exposed, to every single Vehicle (Let alone vehicle AV), Infantry with AV, and the Aircraft itself, which in the ESF case, can pack both AI & AV weapon systems at the same time.
    This AA weapon, the skyguard, is basically subpar at even engaging infantry, and is useless against tanks.
    It typically is expected, to cause the Air to run entirely, which puts the entire purpose of the vehicle, the only target it is designed for, to be absent upon getting the vehicle; Leaving it exposed to every possible threat that is constant, unlike Air, during & after being used against air.
    The air didn't lose nanites, didn't lose even their kill streak.
    In groups, which puts the total nanites spent, into the 800-900 range of nanites (more than double the price of even a Liberator), to kill the lightest aircraft, the ESF.
    That's a 3 man group in 3 entire 350 nanite priced tanks (each one the same price as the ESF), to actually kill the target they are dedicated for.

    What do these share in common? (the weapons), they are flak; A horridly designed weapon system in this.
    It's designed to be near impossible to dodge, useless by itself but INSTANTLY FATAL in bulk.
    Which makes the interaction between Dedicated G2A & Any Air (As Air does not have to specialize at all), cases like:
    • Spawn AA Vehicle, vulnerable & ineffective against all other targets; Air vanishes, upon engagement start
    • Spawn AA Vehicle, Air isn't present. Be completely screwed against all other targets, that are commonplace.
    • Spawn AA vehicle, multiple Air present instead of single lone-wolf pilots. Without an entire group, this group of 5 air is unmatched.
    • Spawn AA Max; Leave spawn, Die to ESF.
    • Spawn AA Max: Ward away ESF, whom is unable to operate without constant impacts.

    And of course from the Air view;
    • Enter range of a fight; Be locked on by 19+ lock-ons, requiring the hard-counter of flares rendering them useless, or to run.
    • Enter range of a fight; Be chipped at by an invulnerable AA max in a spawnroom.
    • Enter range of a fight; Be chipped at by a Skyguard. Leave or Kill it.
    • Enter range of a fight: Multiple Skyguards. become vaporized instantly.
    • Enter range of a fight: No AA present. Massacre until AA mobilizes.

    Also a thing:
    • Enter range of a fight; Pop Flares, massacre and leave the moment AA spawns. Return after a few minutes, depleting their nanites repeatedly.

    Its either no fight, an unpleasant death, or a case of being toyed with,
    Air is either locked out of a fight, or in the middle of a massacre of ground forces.
    AA is either useless, or vaporizing.
    You can not run away from Air, while on the ground. You also are literally gimped, when equiped with AA.
    The most common threat that will actually stay & fight, and be encountered reliably isn't Air.
    Air comes in, out of no-where from half across the map, discouraged from fights with AA, and encouraged to attack places without AA.



    Proper Composition;
    Single lone Wolf in Tank; Any AV, possibly on a tank, or the Heavy-Assaults. If not, using the Rocklets & C-4 on LA's 1-3 men.
    Single Lone Wolf in Aircraft; Squad of AA, AA tanks, 450 Nanite AA Maxes, AA-Lock-Ons, or TR Strikers. 3-6 men.

    The first group is capable of also engaging infantry, and enemy armor, to some degree.
    The Second group, is barely capable of engaging infantry, is dead to armor, and will be useless if more than a Lone-wolf pilot appears.

    Unless TR, in which case, your first group, if armed with Strikers, might actually have a prayer without being dead to the more reliably encountered threats.
    As in: You will find armor, and infantry, more than Air.
    AV & AI, don't typically strip your ability to engage anything else.
    AA strips you of the ability to kill without severely out-numbering your target. (Or being a broken Harasser with an AA gun)
  14. Inogine

    The striker's wonder isn't in it being damaging, more in it being a dumbfire. It requires no lockon time so there's less time to dodge for aircraft. Less warning more time for shots out as there's less time tracking. It's also pretty much the only rocket TR gets for itself that does anything resembling okay damage. Give me that pheonix/mjolnir/enforcer/saron/aphelion any day over whatever TR got. I'll show you how they work. Hell, lemme nab that lancer and pheonix while I'm at it.

    The NS launchers are general purpose, don't do so hot nor so bad. I won't say air health is in a good spot cause they(Devs) want air to survive but don't want to put in proper countermeasures. (There are "countermeasures" in the game but they're... very limited in usage.) This game suffers from the same problem that kills ArmA3 a bit for me. The moment you introduce lockons, you limit the effectiveness of what is locked onto. You then have to introduce proper countermeasures against lockons or it gets one sided against the things being locked onto. They haven't done that.

    So then you do the other thing which is to nerf damage into the ground. You now end up in a scenario where you either choose to keep a weapon handy for the possibility of air threat and lose some combat effectiveness in other scenarios, or you ignore it. Can't do the latter cause air IS a threat. So nerf air's damage? Then why bother with air at all? You'll see an aspect removed from the game cause it has no point. Try to name other combined arms games out today. I mean the ones that have more than 4-5 vehicles driving around supporting and being supported by infantry. Now how many of those have air?

    Also, you're never completely stripped of your AI ability. I run chaingun/burster on my max to pretty good effect. I'm not super adept at getting the kill on air, but I drive them off. With enough people paying attention it's dead. Doesn't take as many as you would think. Infantry still melt to that chaingun. Sure it's not 1-2 second kills(mostly), but they get dead all the same.

    Hell, buddy snapshots the poor guys out of the air with the halberd pretty often just for funzies.

    Is air a little too immune to damage? Certainly against small arms which I feel should do more to the ESFs than they do, but not by a super long shot. Most of the rest of it I don't tend to have trouble with my ranger on my SUNDY either. Gotten many a kill with the detested Ranger. Only the really crazy pilots getting super speed going sideways have really given me trouble or else I've zoned them out of the fight entirely if they don't feel like dying or launching a coordinated assault on me, or else getting infantry/vehicles to kill me for them.

    First and last thing I'll say on the harasser's balance though in this thread. Nearly anything can kill a harasser. Don't blame me having the skill to outplay you at the feet of the harasser. That's you crossing an open area without checking or else no one watching the flank for a fast approaching vehicle. Mines/tanks/anything with a pulse can chase'em off if you have the proper equipment. Same goes for the flashes as I've never had trouble killing even the invisible ones prior to the nerfing. Pay attention it's doable. You can't autopilot and expect to beat people.
  15. PlanetBound

    Well what you said in part was
    "Maybe it works on paper, maybe it's balanced "technically".. But in reality, it doesn't work, it's not balanced.
  16. LordKrelas

    Never said damage about the striker, so yeah, it's the simplicity & capabilities of the dumbfire & proximity lock combo.

    The countermeasure to lock-ons: Is Flares.
    It completely nullifies any in-flight locks, and renders the aircraft immune to being locked on for a duration.
    This makes every lock-on weapon completely hard-countered when in use, and can be used endlessly.

    So, not only is the lock-on, very limiting on gameplay options on both sides (As it can't be too potent for obvious reasons), it also impairs the target by existing.
    Add in the need to use the things, unless packing a Max, or an entire tank (The latter needs a vehicle terminal), which cost more or equal to the lightest enemy aircraft.
    Unless you have an Harasser, with an AA gun (they're pretty cheap, with the AA gun, possibly too much considering)
    Yes, those are glass-cannon harassers; But they're damn easy to chain-pull.
    Not as bad as Flashes for it, as the harasser at least is a 2-man.

    If you run a max, with one burster, you have even less than the Dual-Burster.
    The ESF has to choose to run, and he's paying less; He could just strike you with his Pods, and that'd be it.
    The only thing in this game, where the goal of a weapon is to 'drive off' a threat, is AA.
    AV, designed to kill. Can effectively handle AI to an extent.
    AI, totally designed to kill. Quite a few options, for vehicles, have some AV uses (before CAI, AV was god)
    AA, to... drive off the threat for a time. Has no AV or AI practicality.

    As well, enough people have to out-number, and fire rounds into a lone wolf Pilot
    Put that Lone-Wolf in a tank, watch them die rather than be driven off.
    Put that Lone-Wolf as any infantry class, They'll die.
    And that's having them use the same situation as the ESF Pilot.
    Only air, can handle a 3:1 odds, with a hope to live, when the entire group is packing dedicated guns.
    Any land vehicle? Straight dead.
    Any infantry? Dead.
    Max? Dead.
    Pilot? Can easily survive.

    I brought up Harassers, not since they don't die.
    Pilots have a complaint about their price & their AA Top gun mountings.
    Harassers at least, are kill-able, before they over-reach; an ESF basically has to commit suicide to over-reach past what they can pull out of.

    ESFs are lone-wolves, that are stated to be fought with entire groups with dedicated weapons: Or fly in their special duels.
    This is a team game, unless you're a pilot; In which case, a 2v1 is in your favor, by platform.

    I hope that gets the point across a bit more.
  17. Inogine

    I'll give ya that air is quite survivable if you're willing to hit and run constantly. I've seen some skilled pilots work some magic to rack up a large number of kills. Been rather impressed by it, but you're not wrong that AAA can only drive off the threat most of the time. Honestly I'm actually okay with that. I dislike not being able to secure the kills, but often I just ignore'em overhead or maneuver into areas I know they won't wanna follow. If they're hammering too hard on a convoy and stand a chance at destroying it, I'll pull AAA to throw'em off.

    You are right though, all my mentality is just driving them away. I'm a good enough lead with the ranger to often secure some kills, but the really good pilots will fly just beyond the kill range. That said, it's rough for new folks too which is why it is the way it is. Trying to learn air in this is rough with the threats being constant in both ground and air. Why I gave up on it cause I could never learn their magic.
  18. LordKrelas

    Well Air has AI & AV, that kills their targets.
    Air has AA weaponry that also kills.
    So, that the ground can only drive away the threat onto another sap, without it even affecting the pilot is disturbing.
    If a tank engages, or over-commits, they at least lose the tank; That's a 350 to 450 nanite loss.
    If the ESF or Liberator doesn't die, their endless farm becomes a thing, and it becomes more profitable, the longer they are 'discouraged by AA', as long as they don't die, they get the longer streaks, which amplify the profit.

    Air has first strike advantage, with barely any return-fire that works; Or they're taking unavoidable chip damage.

    Mean while, if Air is engaged by say, anything but air, that is a threat or they aren't equipped to handle; Air can not be caught.
    If a land vehicle or infantry is engaged by Air, they can't run from the air, they can't hide unless infantry & a building nearby (that Air isn't also able to fire into, with all the AOE available), and if a vehicle; They're straight dead.
    Only the harasser is capable of decent speed compared to an ESF, and the buggy has to deal with terrain.
    Mean while, the ESF & Liberator has a built-in booster.
    The ESF also has a built-in radar, built-in auto-repair, so add onto speed, their ability to then use their actual slots,
    They can either pack Flares to hard-counter any lock-on, or a 50%-value instant heal for practical options.

    We're talking the fastest unit in the game, armed with two entire sets of weaponry, built-in-radar, self-repairing-over-time, capable of boosting their speed even further, and these weapons automatically reload when switched out to the other weapon, that can also heal itself to full health for all extensive purposes - that is also a one-man operated aircraft for 350 nanites.

    Vs an Single-weapon vehicle, 350 nanite tracked tank, with nothing built-in, armed with a deterrent-style weapon.
    Or a 450 slowest-speed-in-game MAX unit, armed with 1 or 2 deterrent-style weapons.

    If air spends 450 nanites, they are pulling a 3-man 3-weapon liberator, with built-in speed booster, heavy armor, the strongest belly gun options, better AA launchers on the rear, and an anti-armor rapid-fire pilot-operated chaingun that can rip apart MBTs by itself; Making a Lone Liberator pilot, without Gunners able to effectively mulch 2-man 450 nanite priced tanks, with basically the same health-pool or better, while being faster than they can dream of.

    A single operator in an MBT, has half their firepower, and is vulnerable.
    Their Top-gun is an important asset, and solo'ing the operation of a main battle tank, is a severe weakness.
    But fly an equal priced flying asset, and your weakness is negligible at best.

    We have deterrents against aircraft, that have an entire list of built-in advantages over same-priced equipment, which they easily murder: Mean while, these deterrents are encouraged to be stacked, and upon doing so, erase the ability to fly near them.
    and if you lack enough of these weapons, Not only is the pilot unaffected by the engagement, they could possibly murder more.


    If a pilot engages a vehicle, that vehicle can't run, that vehicle has no options.
    If a vehicle engages a pilot, that Pilot always has options unless AA is spammed; In which case, they die near instantly if they stay at all.


    IE, I'm not okay with G2A being a case of "Be a pilot, and A2A them" or "Spam force-multipliers & outspend the lone-wolf"
    While every other kind of engagement, the notion of "teamwork" isn't that one side must be working together to obsession, while the opponent doesn't need to even talk to his allies or have any.
    "The Air Lone-wolf, unlike land wolves, is able to survive all but an entire dedicated squad"
    Can you imagine if Air wasn't just lone ESFs, One-man Liberators, and the rare 3-man, but what land combat is like?
    You know, several vehicles, fully manned, working with infantry, or at least talking to their allies they have in the battlefield.
    As right now, not a single ESF has to speak a word to kill any target, but a single tank has to coordinate to kill another lone man just since he's in a plane.
    And infantry have to dedicate themselves to attacking lone-wolves, like the sololist is a god, as he touched an air terminal.

    Not to mention, We have Flak, which is crap for Air & land.
  19. JibbaJabba

    That tends to be what I do now. It annoys me though because I simply don't want to do that. I wanted to do the thing I was doing before but now I have to do something else.
    Stalker infiltrators are the same type of annoyance. "hey guys wanna play hide and seek?", "No!" "how about I annoy you until you do?"
    It's not like a banshee pilot is actually playing a game with the infantry players. They aren't actually playing together. One is just using the other for live targets. The live targets sacrifice their own fun gameplay for the fun of those others.
    It's a crappy setup, not ideal for everyone's enjoyment but I'm not sure how else to have a true combined arms game. I guess the problem is the G2A game is just boring as **** to play so the pilots don't have anyone to actually play with on the ground.
    • Up x 1
  20. DeadlyOmen

    It is impossible to measure balance in a game that has an infinite number of engagement possibilities.

    One is much better served by creating countermeasures instead of rationalizations.