Air is the only thing that doesn't fear its counter.

Oh wow! I have anger issues? No way. How did you know??

That's it. Either Reclaimer77 is your main or you are purposefully trolling the forums. Even if you had another main how do I know your KDP is not .001? lol. We already know you have anger problems. I can't even respond to someone who's not honest about a character name.

Your anger issues are evident in your style of posting. Really vitriolic and nasty personal attacks.

You always respond to me. So nice try. Believe me, I could only WISH you wouldn't respond to me.

Fact is, you don't have a right to know each and every persons main. At this point I wouldn't tell you my main just because I don't like you, and you wish it. If you were dying of thirst I wouldn't bother to piss in your mouth at this point.

Stop crying wolf. The only reason you want my main, is so you can make a personal attack. Yet when I do the same, you cry foul??

You are just a Scythe ****ter who doesn't want AA buffed. That's what all this is about. One guys stats aren't going to prove anything. I already used GLOBAL stats to prove you are wrong.

I'm just left with Reclaimer77 as your character.

I mean you could be a total coward. That's cool.

I'm going to walk away from this discussion.

This guy is a total coward.

He loves to hit my stats but mains a BR75 and hides behind some fictional main.

You ******* started the stat thing. Remember that night? Not only that, but you spammed them obnoxiously in 40 point bold red text. Like 10 times on a single page.

And now you want to pretend that you're the bigger man and are some kind of victim?

Coward? Yeah okay, afterburn out of this discussion just like you afterburn away from AA. You ******* chicken **** groundspamming scrub.

We've been arguing this for literal days. Read the thread.

AA is not particularly rewarding for most people, as has been stated. It doesn't give you many certs and there aren't really all that many targets. Furthermore, they usually just run away when you engage. I personally like playing AA, but I understand why most people don't.

If air is so effective and rewarding, then why wouldn't you do that?

Because it's not fun to me. I don't play this game because I think it's a vehicle simulator. I'm interested in FPSMMO action on a scale we haven't seen since Planetside 1.

Blowing up vehicles is VERY fun to me. Anyone who knows me will tell you if you put C-4 in my hands, and there is a vehicle anywhere even close to me, the first thing on my mind - the ONLY thing - is killing that vehicle.

But AA simply does NOT provide a fun and rewarding experience.

Maybe not for you. I personally like playing AA, but that's just me, I guess.

As for blowing up vehicles, AA and air works pretty damn good. If you're an infantry player, though, I can understand why you don't bother. Keep your grimy mitts out of balance discussions though, game is already stacked in infantry's favor.

And yet you and your butt buddy here have been adamant that AA is fine and everyone else needs to "l2play"....

Were you just going for irony or what?

The game will not be balanced until I can kill you nearly as easily as you can kill me. Right now it's not even close.

Even the Burster Max is an inside joke among pilots.

So no, I will not shut up. The game is "stacked" in our favor? Yeah your bias is showing there. I would love to see your list on how easy we have things.

As has been discussed, AA is fine against air. The only thing that it needs adjusted is xp gain rate and/or to be made more versatile.

You can kill me exactly as easily as I kill you. We have exactly the same weapons available. Sorry you don't want to use them.

As someone who neither flies nor plays AA, I wonder where you're getting this impression that pilots consider it a joke. Is it because we run away and then try to kill you? Is it because we sometimes win? Doesn't make something a joke, it makes it a threat. Kill the threat and you can kill things that don't threaten you as much.

Infantry is very powerful for how cheap it is to run. Vehicles, in general, have too low health against infantry weaponry. Obviously a balance between infantry and vehicles is the best strategy, but for the most part, there isn't much for most vehicles to do once the opposing team's vehicles have been destroyed. At some point, you're simply more likely to ditch it than to use it to leverage an advantage.

This discussion wasn't about 3 SG's vs 3 ESFs, why are you (once again) twisting the discussions? You literally wrote that 3 SG's would always outperform 3 ESFs for AA duties.

Ok, lets have some fun.

Right, so now the SG's possibly (and VERY likely) won't all have LoS at the same time, meaning the ESF's can easily double-team them and get them down if they want to. Or they can simply take turns tanking the fire of 1 SG, and AB away once a sufficient amount of damage have been tanked, whilst they are putting the hurt on other targets.

The ESF's would actually be able to exploit their advantage (A2A loadouts against A2G loadouts), and the A2G ESF's wouldn't be able to run like they easily could from the SG's.

Things such as canyons etc, make it nearly impossible for ground-based AA to fight back effectively for instance. None of these things are even mentioned in your generalistic statement, which I found appaling.

Right, while you are firing at the ESF and "dealing damage", the ESF is actively killing your allies. When it has had enough, it just flies up into the cover it came from.

And the situation I talked about they weren't just "sitting on top of me" and firing Daltons aimlessly. No, they were making aggressive, low-flying runs taking advantage of all the things a competent pilot (and a tanker for that matter) do. In a 96+ (on both sides fight), taking out 2/2 MBTs that weren't stationary and easily making it out alive.

I think the many Lib gunners capable of hitting ESFs beg to differ. Unless you are talking about Libs at the flight ceiling (which I'm not).

Well it varied of course, but on average, I would say ~30-40 seconds. Try being exposed to a full zerg within 100m (their approximate altitude) in a ground vehicle for 30-40 seconds without seeking cover

What? So you are telling me that, when using tanks, it is ALWAYS the best course of action to repair behind the nearest piece of cover? Even when flanking in enemy territory? And when you are spotted by multiple enemies that decide to come chase you after you kill your initial target(s)? I honestly don't know what to tell you here since I really don't want to sound condescending. But just think about your claim.

Of course I'm sticking to cover, but that cover isn't always useful to repair behind, as much as breaking LoS and prevention of being spotted. Sure, you CAN stop and repair behind the cover, but that can get you killed. Often, going behind cover (and negating the enemies LoS) combined with Vehicle Stealth, will allow you to escape behind further cover in order to keep your location (at least somewhat) a secret, and therefore be able to retain the element of surprise, even after being initially spotted and outnumbered.

I guess advancing tanking strategies are not something I should expect everyone to know, but come on, this isn't that "advanced".

Eh? Kills isn't exactly the epitome of estimating your combat effectiveness (at least when regarding affecting the battlefield). You definitely can get kills from within friendly zergs (and often more of them), but the thing is, the kills you are getting would most likely be gotten by someone else if you weren't there. The kills you get from flanking are typically "worth" more, simply by virtue of less allies shooting/spotting them. And the additional fact that that is where you meet the enemies experienced tank crews. I'd much rather take out 1 experienced tank crew on the flank (and perhaps a nearby Sundy) than sit there firing at waves of Lightnings/Sundies rushing forward from the enemy base, just getting oblitterated by your zerg. Sitting in the zerg stalls fights, but flanking ENDS fights (often in less ammo spent, and less kills obtained).

I never wrote about getting far away from cover or overextending. I think you misunderstood my comment, otherwise, feel free to elaborate.

Well yeah sure, such a generalistic statement is hard to disagree with. But let's look at it realisticly here. It's going to be difficult to cover ALL the infantry and vehicles in a hex without having 360 degrees coverage. How are you covering your flanking forces for instance? Also, think of canyons etc, where sure, you can fire at aircraft when they can fire down at you, but the aircraft will always have the option of disengaging, since you don't have 360 degrees of cover. Therefore there is minimal risk of forcing them away while they can pick targets off at their leisure. Sure, not all terrain is canyons, but I merely used it as an example.

That doesn't even touch on the "probing" aspect, where you fly over without being intent on attacking the enemies below, but simply gauging their awareness, and where they are actively looking. I do this often in tanks, and I assume pilots do it as well (or else they should).

Sure, but that is incredibly situational. At least having a full-view of the battlefield from a hex away, and often there is cover inbetween that the aircraft can use to their advantage. Furthermore, a SG a hex away doesn't promote a no-fly zone or anything similar. More likely it just paints a big fat bullseye on its hull.

I'd also like to give some ways for aircraft to avoid the "1 AA source clears an entire hex". First of all, generally the terrain itself will make it impossible for such a thing to happen. Secondly, a single AA unit cannot keep full 360 degree vision at all times. Thirdly, the aircraft can stay a bit lower to avoid detection, especially once they know the position. Fourthly, the aircraft can also use terrain to mask their approach (and even their entire attacking run in some terrain/situations). Fifthly, if there is more than 1 aircraft, a single MAX won't be enough to deter them all, if they are in any way competent. Sixly, if the aircraft is a Lib, it can simply facetank the MAX and dive in to kill it. Even easier if it is a Skyguard.

This last part was a copy/paste from an easlier reply, so ignore the parts about the MAX if you want.

Ah, then try doing it in a tank, where practically anything can get you killed, and the kick is, you most likely cannot run from the enemies like you can in an ESF (regarding AA for instance). I routinely spend time in enemy territory when in my tanks, and once again, NOTHING is more dangerous than enemy aircraft. Even when I'm close to the allied zergs, aircraft are typically still my number 1 threat.

So you are suggesting sniper fire from below Mesa against Lancers being fired from the top? How on Earth are they going to hit them? Or do you suggest the Lancers have to stand at the very edge of the cliff, with no railings or anything similar covering them? Oh, and if the infiltrators have to get top-side, they will be demolished by Spitfires. How exactly does this play out?

Several options, but generally the easiest way to counter anything ontop of Scarred Mesa is to redeploy elsewhere and force them away, and then sneak in a cap. You simply won't get a top Scarred Mesa without a much larger force (or much more skilled force of course). If you, for some odd reason, REALLY want those Burster-MAXes dead, I would suggest a sneaky ground-based assault. If you are NC, I'm sure some Phoenix-Flashes could come in handy as a distraction (be sure to fire on an incline of course).

Just budging in on this last one: There are plenty of ways I can earn certs faster than I do with my current play-style, but I'm not in it for the certs etc, I'm in it for other reasons. Just because someone doesn't use something personally, doesn't mean it cannot be too strong/weak etc. Just saying.

Actually it is not true that air does not fear anti air.
If there is anti air active, then you will have to leave, or you will get shot down.
It really is that stupid, if you begin taking damage from flak as an esf you need to leave fast. Really try a 1 vs 1 with a skyguard once. Even with Hornets, if the skyguard has full health you dont stand a chance.
And not that many flyers use Hornets. Most will just prefer to leave and find a spot without active flak, leaving the guy in the skyguard for good.
And that is the core of the Problem, that anti air is only a deterrent, where it should be a killer, but with a chance for the attacker to win.

Fair, I suppose 3 ESF's can beat 3 pieces of AA. I would consider that scenario incredibly unlikely without pre-planning the strike, but there you go.

If the ESF's are coordinating, why don't the SG's? 1 SG can take on 2 ESF's, at least enough to deter them. If he's at risk from air, he should relocate to where his buddy is.

I feel it. Canyons are bad for AA, if you are inside them. They're also bad for air, if you're going A2G. If you are not actively hunting enemy air in the canyons, you will probably be jumped by enemy air. That lack of AA means you also usually have a lack of friendly AA cover too.

If you are dealing damage to an ESF, chances are that he doesn't have time to kill your allies, unless he got a headstart.

You can get a lot of mileage out of a SG by literally going forward and reverse at random intervals. If an enemy lib is making passes, unless it's got a good TB angle on you, just drive towards it at a slight angle. You will almost certainly get more damage off.

You can get a lot of mileage out of attacking lib crews by slightly altering your altitude while hovering. You just have to keep your distance. If you keep your distance, you can literally dodge dalton fire based on the flash from the cannon. It does not matter how good the crew is, if you use your mobility, they will be lucky to hit you.

Pretty much, yeah. If you are by yourself and wounded, you either have to retreat or kill all of your opponents. Unless you need to put distance between you and the enemy, it's always a good idea to begin an engagement at full health.

Alright. You're still moving from cover to cover and healing as needed. You will never have that as an aircraft. It's a far different process.

Not true at all. If you've got 10v10, and you can distract one of the tanks, what are the odds now? Sure, the flanking tank ends up doing all the work, but the tank mass keeps the enemy from just rolling right through your line. The mass of tanks gives the flankers something to work with. If everyone was flanking, nobody would be flanking.

Flanking without cover (hard or soft) is overextending. Unless you have someone spotting for you, or a good vantage point, you're pretty much at the mercy of the terrain, which could be hiding more tanks than you can handle at once.

If all the infantry are in a base in a canyon, you can set your SG back in the canyon and cover the entire base. Unless the canyon turns in such a way as to break your LoS over the base, you can watch the whole thing. You only need a wedge of that 360.

The amount of space an ESF has to maneuver in for a SG that places itself in the back line is marginal. If he has to stick to specific pieces of cover, you are setting him up to get killed by air or AA. Think of a skyguard as a flashlight; you can hide from the light, but if there is light, you have to stick to the shadows. If you are limited to where you can go, you do not have a mobility advantage anymore. And nah, most terrain is relatively flat. Yes, being outnumbered is bad, even when you are a counter. And a lib doing this is overextending. He might not die, but he's risking a lot to kill something that can just get revived. And yeah, you'd be surprised. You can embarrass cocky libs with an SG, it's not overly difficult.

Aircraft are threatening because they negate your cover. The difference between you and them is that you can tank enough damage to escape. ESF's need to use their mobility to escape.

How do the lancers target ground forces if they are not at the edge? I see you, you see me. They will not stop everything, but through suppression, they can lower the overall RoF of the lancers to a far less threatening level.

I'm not talking scarred mesa. I'm talking the cliff face outside of the SE warpgate, or the big *** rock outside of the SW. The only counter is air.

Trust me, if you are getting into air expecting to get a ton of certs, just stop. Air is a great tool to have for the right situation, and can be a lot of fun because you almost always get to pick what you're getting yourself into. Either way, I promise you that you will spend far more time out of combat with your ESF than you will spend engaging the enemy.

Someone needs to necro this thread, I'm pretty sure any good debate if there was one ended sometime before page 28...

Well, it's not quite dead, but you certainly bumped it. Anything in particular you're looking for?

Kinda hoping radarx will just pop in here and be like "yo dawg I heard you like to talk about dis thread, but I just locked it, peace!"

Why? You could always, you know, read another post.