Air is the only thing that doesn't fear its counter.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scr1nRusher, Mar 22, 2016.

  1. Sebastien

    Sure there's a tactical purpose but barely anybody used it for that purpose. Supression is code for spawnroom farming.
    Vehicles should be good at just one thing, otherwise you get something like Libs where the best counter is another Lib.
    The best counter for a tank is an A2G aircraft, which would be fine, because it means a mediocre player can kill me and I won't live forever.
    With a 3/3 Lib with the Best crew they're impossible to beat efficiently. You either pull more aircraft to beat them which means there's less people everywhere else, or you get an even better Lib team.
    That's it. That's why multi-role is bad.
  2. Badname707

    That's a problem with how teamwork is implemented in this game. There is nothing inherently wrong with spawnroom suppression; again, this is a teamwork problem. Spawn suppressed? It's time for a sunderer. You still have time to desuppress spawn before the timer is up, and retake that internal spawn point.

    Or you use some anti-air and 2 ESF's. I can reasonably take on most crewed libs in 1v1 as ESF, if they don't find friendly cover or WG - more mobility means I will always have initiative on the lib. With another skilled pilot, I can take on the most skilled crews in the game, especially if we are coordinating between each other via VOIP, provided they don't retreat to friendly cover. If lib goes against AA and runs, it's pretty much dead if I engage it from the air, no matter how many people I have.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with versatility, though I will agree with you that a skilled dalton crew may be a little too anti-everything for it's own good. That said, the lib DOES have drawbacks; I would rather fight a skilled crew in an ESF than another lib, as I would certainly be the weak link in whatever crew I'm in. I would rather fight a skilled crew in AA than an ESF, because a skilled crew that knows when and how to disengage is an incredibly tedious fight to get into from the air, and I'm usually playing solo. AA is just more effective at the job of deterring air in general (less good at deterring 1 particular aircraft, I suppose) without giving yourself a headache, or dying a lot from overextension.
  3. Cyropaedia

    Currently fighting 20 TR Burster Maxes on Scarred Mesa on Connery. AA underpowered, yea right...
  4. Slandebande

    No. At least the way you put it, implying it is the case in every single scenario. Yes, in a perfect world the 3 sources of AA would have full visibility and mobility of the ground terrain, except that rarely happens. Furthermore, there is often cover for aircraft to use to sneak up (especially if using Stealth). The SG's also have to position themselves to be protected from the enemy ground forces, further limiting their FoV in most bases.

    Acting as if 3 SG's will always be more effective than 3 ESFs at clearing the air and preventing A2G attacks is very generalistic and sounds very weird, since you yourself have claimed that the A2G ESFs will most likely suffer massive disadvantages against the A2A ESF's. Sure, in certain terrain the SG's will be more effective, but there are certainly also situations where the ESF's will be more effective.

    I know this was a response regarding MAX'es, but if the enemy aircraft is a Lib, even Skyguards don't want to be attacked by them. Just saying you might want to clarify your statement.

    Ah, I wish it was possible to find fights without infantry-based AV AND without enemy aircraft. We all have dream scenarios eh? :rolleyes: Also, whining about having to team up with allies to get something done, instead of just lone-wolfing all the time sounds a bit like entitlement to me. Most ground forces have to rely on allies constantly to survive (even when flanking in MBTs, you are relying on allies occupying the attention of enemies). Flanking a force that is not actively engaging your allies, is much more difficult.

    How is this different from ground vehicles? In many fights, a large portion of your time spent is spent repairing your tank (getting to cover safely, repairing, getting out onto your flank again).

    Well I routinely do it (or similar AFK tasks) whilst in a tank, either in the Warpgate, or some other safe location, in order to fill up my nanites while I'm AFK anyways. It isn't a terrible stretch to imagine pilots doing the same (at least I see plenty of AFK aircraft as well).

    To be fair, your statement is INCREDIBLY generalistic and is only correct in a select few scenarios. First of all, generally the terrain itself will make it impossible for such a thing to happen. Secondly, a single AA unit cannot keep full 360 degree vision at all times. Thirdly, the aircraft can stay a bit lower to avoid detection, especially once they know the position. Fourthly, the aircraft can also use terrain to mask their approach (and even their entire attacking run in some terrain/situations). Fifthly, if there is more than 1 aircraft, a single MAX won't be enough to deter them all, if they are in any way competent. Sixly, if the aircraft is a Lib, it can simply facetank the MAX and dive in to kill it. Even easier if it is a Skyguard.

    What an utterly terrible and biased example.
    For kicks, try pulling a ground vehicle, and go up against 10 Lancers. They don't even require nanites to pull them, with only half the amount of people, and the weapon itself requires less certs to be a maximum efficiency. You won't have a good time.

    So you say we should pull aircraft to kill aircraft. Where is the combined arms in this? Why not just play a flight sim then?
  5. Badname707

    To answer your last question first, no, that's not what I said. If you are good with an aircraft, pull air, as you are more likely to finish the kill. If you're not good, you'll probably die. Still, that's not universally true; if there is enemy AA in the area, they can keep you from engaging their A2G. AA cover is most useful for friendly air, because it deters enemy air. Air is a bigger threat to air than anything else. Deter enemy air from engaging your air and you effectively create an environment where friendly aircraft can escape to and through.

    Depends entirely on the terrain. On much of Esamir and Indar, this is true. Amerish less so, Hossin very much less so. 1 source of flak can deter one ESF after one pass. If the ESF gets the drop on the AA, he is allowed 2 passes, unless he has a good shot of killing that AA. If anything else decides to get involved in interrupting the kill against the AA, that ESF is dead via overextension.

    Playing as a skyguard, I typically do want to be engaged by ALL air, unless it is by multiple ones. The only air I truly fear are highly skilled (can't remember the name, but the chaingun) crews. They actually have the ability to put damage on me that I can't easily evade. Daltons are easy enough to dodge, and the TB isn't so difficult to dodge that I won't kill a lib for overextending on me. I admit, I can be outdone by libs in a SG, but except on the rare occasion they totally get the drop on me and smack me with TB before I can land any shots, it won't be easy for them.

    I die often enough as a pilot that I won't wait til I'm dead to take a break. I suppose I can only speak for me on this one, though.

    A tank has the option of repairing from the same piece of cover he's firing from. It's not even necessary to move more than 10m, a lot of the time. You can also be repaired by your gunner, or other infantry. Disengaging and repairing as an aircraft actually takes quite a bit of time, even more so if you are fighting in enemy held/contested territory/airspace.

    AA doesn't need full 360 degree coverage to protect the bulk of force against air attacks. That's what positioning is all about. An aircraft is not easy to hide, because it is in the air and always on the move. If you are not on the move, you are basically self-negating your primary advantage.

    Counter with infiltrators on wraith flashes. They only need to get close enough. You don't even need to score headshots on them, or kill them all. Any amount of sniper rifle damage is a pretty effective deterrent.
  6. Slandebande

    My last question was a response to someone else

    I specifically wrote that it is dependant on terrain and the base layout, and the positioning. I don't know why you had to repeat it. You also didn't list ANY of these requirements in your original post, you just claimed 3 SG's would outperform 3 ESF's. If you don't list anything else, it is implied that it applies everywhere, which it doesn't.

    There are also plenty of places on Indar at least, where air has terrain to mask their approach. Another aspect is that aircraft can generally come from most directions by using terrain, sneakiness etc, whereas AA units will often have their LoS blocked by buildings etc, ESPECIALLY on Esamir this is an issue. Oh, and try going up against infantry-AV in those same open spaces using ground-vehicles. It is just as frustrating (I don't do it much personally though, as I don't enjoy fighting infantry, except for sniping those pesky MANA-AV turrets).

    Daltons aren't easy to dodge once they get in close. Not many libs will engage a Skyguard with solely the Dalton from long-range, as generally, attacking from long-range in any vehicle is sub-optimal. The libs I fear, are the ones running Stealth and sneaking in. And please don't claim they will always be picked off or assaulted by friendly air/AA before they get in close. I don't know if it is because people recognize/remember me, but I'm routinely hunted by Libs even in large battles whilst in my tanks. More often than not I will have to rely on either myself, or friendly tanks (not SG's) to defend myself from them. I even had a battle a couple of weeks ago with the same Lib crew doing repeated attack runs over a 96+ (on both sides) fight, without losing their Lib, for over an hour.

    Normally I would place disclaimers that these things typically happen a bit away from the zerg, but in that particular situation, they just afterburned away to safety using terrain to mask both their approach, and escape.

    A tank sometimes has the option of repairing from the same piece of cover he's firing from. It really depends on whether you are a zerg-hugging noob tanker (who has 0 impact on fights) or someone who actually flanks and does something in the fights. In those situations, you often can't just "move 10m". Staying near friendly infantry tends to get you spotted quicker, leading to a quicker death unless you are in a fight you are bound to win anyways. I generally won't be in such fights (at least not after they are decided). Also, competent tankers will very often roam in "enemy held/contested territory/airspace" and repairing just nearby where you took cover, is very risky.

    But I'm sure that if your experience with tanks is limited to spawn-room camping then it isn't much of an issue :D

    Once more, this was a reply to someone else than you.

    If you don't have 360 degree coverage, you aren't shutting down an entire hex, period. "That's what positioning is all about" you say? What about the positioning of aircraft as well as choice of angles of approach/attack and attack vectors? The pilots I fear aren't the BR8 pilots flying straight from their own base to the battle, but the ones taking detours in enemy territory in order to gain the advantage of surprise. Ground vehicles and aircraft both do this. And not having 360 degree coverage, means the aircraft can move in and assault their targets whilst avoiding the AA. Simple stuff.

    Once again, this was a reply to someone other than you, who used 20 Burster MAX'es on Scarred Mesa to suggest AA isn't overpowered. I merely suggested that he halve the amount of people, and not bother using nanites, and he would be able to counter any and all ground vehicles moving to attack the same base. It was an illustration of how bad an example he was making, not something I sought out counters to.
  7. Scr1nRusher


    Also its hilarious how "theres so many sources of AA" but they are not killing you........
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  8. Scr1nRusher

    HE is AI.

    So it should have a bigger radius.

    I have played on the pc for 2 years and also played in 7 server smashes scrub LOL.
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  10. Scr1nRusher

    So tell us, how much do you slay?
  11. TheOpapanax

    I'm a PS4 player but have several years of PS1 and some PC PS2 experience. You should drop that PC Mustardrace stuff.

    I'm starting to see why it has taken you two dozen pages to not understand an opposing view.

    You likely won't admit that outside of Aiming.. flying is thrice as enjoyable with controller (that's a console thing) over KB/M..
  12. Scr1nRusher

    Are you the same guy or someone who got abit butt hurt?
  13. TheOpapanax

    Yes I'm the third account for the same guy who keeps telling you you're being an idiot.
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  14. Cyropaedia

    You simply won't be satisfied with AA until a single player can insta-gib. You will always use the "fleeing and repairing Aircraft" excuse even at 2 second TTK.

    Had a 96+VS/96+ TR battle on Scarred Mesa on Connery last night. There were literally 20 TR Burster Maxes shutting down Air. It was a wall of flak with Burster muzzle flashes lighting up the plateau like wildfire. We [VS] had 15+ Scythes (including DonAlfrago squadron), 8 Libs, 10 Gals, and perhaps more. All Aircraft went splat within a couple of seconds of entering Burster range. Once two or three Burster Maxes honed in on me at their render range, TTK was 1.5-2 seconds even at full reverse thruster. Buffing AA any more would be insta-gib. Your frame of reference is 1-12 or 12-24 infantry battles on Emerald (less vibrant AA/ Air Game). Sh*t got crazy on Connery Air last night. lol. I said to myself, "This is what Planetside 2 was designed for - massive Ground-Air Combined Arms battle."
  15. Scr1nRusher

    Emerald has big *** fights all the time.

    Also, I do have a plan to buff AA.
  16. Badname707

    Still, was pertinent to the topic.

    3 SG's will handily deal with 3 ESF's. I simply cannot imagine a situation in which 3 SG's won't deter or kill 3 ESF's. Terrain or otherwise. Does it block LoS? Yes. In practice, this barely changes things; broken LoS means no fire exchange. When one has LoS, chances are the other will. Sure, I suppose it is possible that 3 SG's will have their LoS blocked entirely from some angle, and that an ESF can use that to pop in and out. You are still locking the ESF down (negating mobility against air) and dealing damage in the same opportunities it has to fire. If it's any other way, it's probably poor positioning on the part of the SG.

    If a lib wants to sit on top of me, I suppose I will likely die. Unless I'm utterly alone, so will that lib. I'll probably have a new SG ready before they get another lib up. If there's any amount of distance though, constant movement and varying speed can reduce dalton accuracy to damn near zero. SG weaponry is far less precise than lib, so I'll put out more damage over time, given both of our movement. And yeah, libs hunt SG's first, when they have the opportunity. It's nothing personal, it's just the most visible thing that can effectively retaliate. Killing SG's means more airtime in the AO. How long was the lib up there per pass?

    Yes you can? Whether you're flanking or not, you SHOULD be using hard cover. Unless you're being outmaneuvered, you're better off sticking close to somewhere you can repair. Getting too far away from cover is called overextending, and it makes you dead. A tank that overextends is more useless than one using mass armor as cover; a tank hugging the zerg puts out more damage over a longer period, which provides more forward stopping power. He'll get less kills, but deterrence IS a good thing. But yadida strawman. I do well in tanks, and yes, I generally am flanking.

    If you are covering all the infantry and vehicles in a hex, you shutting down an entire hex. If you move 1 hex over, you can have 180 degree coverage and STILL cover an entire hex. You can cover a hex from somewhere that is not the center of that hex, or even inside that hex. Taking detours through enemy territory can be good, but remember, A2G pilots have WAY less AB. They're asking to get spotted by enemy air, or engaged by nearby AA. I guess what I'm saying is, sure, if you're not watching your back while you're covering from the side of a battle, you can get ganked from behind. This is sometimes easy to pull, sometimes gets you killed before you do anything. I generally try to keep my head on a swivel.

    Which is why I told you how to counter them. How do you counter an AA nest on the top of the big mesa in SW Indar? The answer: Air, poorly.
  17. Badname707

    I'm not arguing this here, nor with you. I neither agree nor disagree.

  18. Badname707

    You want 1 piece of AA to kill an ESF, even if it tries to escape, right? That means, every time an ESF engages AA, it will probably die. Which is pretty much every time an ESF engages with ground.

    They aren't killing because WE AREN'T ENGAGING. We're pretty likely to run if there's one source of AA, definitely with two. If we know there's AA there, we aren't going to go somewhere where we'll be vaporized, if anything we'll take pot shots from cover. If AA is saturated enough, we just find another fight.
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  19. Badname707

    Actually, your theory on the air game is wrong. Waterson had pretty much the best air in US PS2, for a long time. It's toned down quite a bit since Emerald became a thing, but I'd still rank it better than Connery's air game. ****, I'd rate Emerald as better than Connery at EVERYTHING, but that's just me. Connery literally makes me sad to play on.

    Buuuuut I don't spend much time there, and haven't for a long time, so things could have changed.
  20. Wind_Walker

    Connery VS have had a thing for air zergs lately. The other factions both do it less often, and to a lesser degree. Idk about how that fares against emerald or waterson, tho
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