Air Combat's Steep Learning Curve

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Awass, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. Awass

    Valid point. But A2A combat is not very deep. There's not enough vertical fighting. You can't stall and you can't get any noticeable speed advantage from using your altitude. And the problem is that there is only one "best" way to fly. The only way to beat an ace is to fly like they do. There's not much room for you to fly the way you want to.
  2. TheRealMetalstorm

    I'll talk to you about #1:
    each pilot has his own methods.

    You see, that's what I find awesome - no other aspect of PS2 has enough depth and flexibility to let a player be unique. I can recognise enemy aces by their flight patterns alone (with the stupid spotting nerf, I can't see their names any more until either one of us dies). Air reverses aren't disjointed "manoeuvres" you pull off sequentially. Used properly, they flow into each other and each manoeuvre's exit is done to facilitate the entry into the next one, and every manoeuvre is done to best give you the edge on the enemy.

    I find this the only "art" left in PS2, where there is no single "best" solution/school of thought.
    Air reverses aren't as simple as you think, there's so much more to understand than spamming air reversals.

    Also, hey buddy, i understand your frustrations, but i can't agree less... it's not like air reverses are this easy-to-do auto-win move that good pilots keep to themselves. I'm all for teaching anybody who wants to know. But as I said above, it's not about knowing how to do it and then proceeding to wreck people. In fact, it's much harder to aim while doing an air reverse, than flying in a straight line.

    This is the only form of combat left in PS2 where skill consistently matters. Which is excellent - none of that instagib rubbish, none of that luck or etc.

    I take no pleasure in downing low BR pilots - in fact, if they put up a valiant effort to survive, I pm them to commend them and will cooperate if they want help starting. The only reason I down all pilots I can is to save my friendly MBTs from being podded. I take it as a duty when I play. I already spent the 2000 certs or so maximizing my magazine size for my rotary cannon.
    • Up x 3
  3. NoctD

    Absolutely 100% wrong. There is room for improvement - it comes with seat time and practice. I'm hardly an ace but I've constantly been able to improve. Once upon a time, I was one of those that swore off flying in PS2 as being "too hard". I'm improving day after day now, and really enjoying it.

    Its really rewarding and fun - since you can't just insta-win the air game. I don't carry A2AMs anymore, just rotary for A2A and no AB pods so I can't burn for an advantage either. It really forces you to get better or become toast. And each A2A kill actually feels like I really accomplished something too.

    Dalton Libs don't bother me so much... you can see a belly up Lib from a mile away, so you only have yourself to blame if you get shot by one. Their tail guns can be really nasty especially the Walker, so don't underestimate a Lib. The Walker is a good weapon given a decent gunner for it. The real problem with the Lib seems to be how its not really good at its A2G role anymore.

    And yes - a good ESF/Lib doesn't come cheap. The amount of certs requires to cert them up is pretty massive, but the rewards are equally good. My Reaver is still a ways from where I want it to be but I still have a blast flying it.
  4. TheRealMetalstorm

    Every pilot flies his own way. I can recognise enemy aces on my server by their flight patterns. I can recognise those who are starting to get better, and those who simply spam air reversals without knowing how to do them properly. Flinging your plane about in the air seems simple, but actually using it to gain an advantage is harder. More often than not, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage when you do an air reverse, since your subsequent movement is completely locked in (unless you've mastered using roll to mess with your air reverses) and hence, a good pilot can empty his rotary and get about 30-50% hp off you.

    There's really more to it than "i can use air reverse, I win, you can't you lose".

    I don't find air reversals viable in 60% of the situations I find myself in and stick to forward motion simply because the time isn't right for it. It's a situational weapon, just like using pods in a dogfight.
  5. Cinnamon

    The other day I met another ESF pilot who knew how to turn. We turned around each other a few times then he got bored and flew away. Air combat in this game is quite boring and simple once you have the right upgrades and learn a few tricks. I prefer air to air missiles but the lock on range and flight behaviour is bad. There are some things like trying to trick your opponent into hitting things or whatever but the basics are dull. And naturally some people have better frames than others which is a big advantage.
    • Up x 1
  6. PaperPlanes

    It takes like 30 seconds of practice to master the reverse move in an ESF. It's so freaking simple, I don't see how anyone can struggle with it.
    • Up x 2
  7. mittmorren

    1. Then they are not good pilots, honestly good pilot v noob , yeah maybe win everytime 1v1. but good pilot v good pilot, simple reverse manouvre wont save you at all. the reverse manouvre is just that too, simple. Take this from a reaver with 250+ hours. The pilots who can reverse manouvre will get destroyed by more practiced pilots, i assure you. So i wouldn't call a good pilot somebody who can use reverse manouvre, i call a good pilot someone who is good in any situation, the way you make it sound is yeah, of course you can prey on some noobs, maybe over the zerg or in friendly territory. big deal.

    2. If they made a tail gunner better, do you suggest reducing damage of dalton? because any good liberator would still choose to do the, again, simple manouvre of pointing belly at direction of target where a skilled gunner can pop ESF's like no tomorrow.

    the changes you ask for with hover and tail gun, would require a whole revamp of air mechanics.
  8. TheRealMetalstorm

    Reverse spammer spotted. I'm lazy to retype what i already said, so...
    • Up x 1
  9. biterwylie

    I must admit. The learning curve was wayyyyyyy too steep for me :oops: and I will be taking all my certs out of the Reaver once the token exists.

    For me the physics of flight are so far removed from reality I was just not able to 'Learn to fly'

    I expect the main reason of ESF suicides and deconstructs is born out of frustration, quite simply due to the fact that once engaged you basically know your screwed so just ditch the thing asap and hope for a good bail out :D

    Respect to the poeple who log 19days learning to fly however.
    • Up x 1
  10. Shinrah

    Have to agree, that the Reverse Maneuver alone wont save you. It´s more a of a combination between normal maneuvers and reverse ones. There´s Pilots out there that manage to engage in dogfights over enemy territory against multiple enemy ESF´s and come out winning, or at least alive with a few more points EXP on their account.

    Also, knowing how to lead your target while both you and your target perform evasive maneuvers is also key to winning a dogfight. Doesn´t help you if you can fly backwards but can´t hit jack. And I would very much hate for SOE to remove or "fix" the mechanic that lets you do a reverse maneuver.

    It requires alot of trial and error to get it down right, and the sense of achievement when you master it is great. It also adds depth to flying and is simply cool to do.

    Not mention it´s outright dangerous if you aren´t completely aware of your surroundings, there´s no back mirror that shows you the rock, antenna, ressuply tower, airpad etc. while performing these maneuvers. Also when doing them close to the ground the risk of crashing is extremely high if you so much as err a few degrees in the wrong direction.

    And not mention, I wasn´t even aware of these maneuvers for quite some time and still did pretty well in dogfights, those who can actualy perform a good reverse maneuver in combat situations are far and few in between. Normal flying skills will put you on even ground with 9/10 pilots out there. Reverse flying is also not neccessary to evade AA or perform well against ground targets.

    Still doesn´t change that flying has by far the steepest learning curve in PS2, but it doesn´t all revolve around reverse flight, or being able to A2A with a zephyr.
  11. Comenius

    Helicopters from Avatar would be AWESOME! Sniping from the skids of a chopper like the good old days! Want!
  12. SenEvason

    I think the learning curve is a good thing. With the VR area, it's possible to learn, and it's very skill-based, which I think should stay. It's to the point where you can recognize an enemy ace just by watching them fly. Can't do that on the ground, which is a shame.
  13. EvilKoala

    This.. The aircraft in this game couldn't possibly be more "accessible"... which is why they're so boring.
  14. AshOck

    Just because the peak is high that doesn't mean the learning curve is steep. And in fact, ask anyone that's committed to learning
    how to fly/dogfight and they will tell you there is plenty of in-between skill. Plenty of progression. The problem is that people
    expect to master it quickly without putting in the time and effort.
  15. DemoEvolved

    ok. just talking from a game design sense here:

    Libbys are supposed to be totally Prey for 2A2 ESFs.
    Design wise, it should be relatively low threat for an ESF to stay on a Libby and shoot him down. It is ok if takes a while.
    Libbys can use map position, escorts, G2A allies and the weak tailgun to respond to ESFs.
    Problem:
    When a Libby flips upside down to shoot an ESF with the Belly Bomb gun it suddenly creates high threat to the predator and staying on attack becomes very "gamble" to the ESF. This is basically broken design right there.

    We can see the best craft examples of this exact same scenario in Tribes 2 where it is the Bomber vs the Shrike. And for good reason in that game, the belly turret for the bomber emits projectiles that fall with gravity.

    So the solution is for the Belly turret of the Libby to drop projectiles that fall with gravity.
    Once this is the case, there will be a lot more "moderate" targets for beginner ESF pilots, providing a training option for these pilots to get better at A2A attack.


    On the topic of the ESF being "too maneuverable" as a heli/jet hybrid, I don't think this is a problem. It increases skill with the ESF. So I don't think that should be changed. I am never going to be good enough to actually do those maneuvers, but that is ok. The maneuvers won't come into play vs. Libbys.

    Net goals of changes:
    Beginner ESF have more prey, make it easier to train to become good.
    ESF Hunting Libbys emphasizes the chase.
    Libbys are focused on dominating ground vehicles
    The best ESF pilots are not a lot faster than noob ESF pilots at taking down Libbys.
    Good ESF pilots are a lot better than noob ESF pilots in duels.

    Is that a straight nerf to Libbys? Not really, because they should not be shooting down ESFs in the first place. They should be running.
    If they need to be thrown a bone to make up for it, I would be offering improvements to Libby Afterburners and / or cheaper Auto repair certing.
    • Up x 1
  16. Shinrah

    Just because entry LvL flying is easy, doesn´t mean you can play with the BigBoys. It´s like comparing the Minor League with the Major´s. I consider myself a decent pilot, and I can win 9/10 dogfights and deal more than enough dmg to ground targets, yet there are pilots out there who are way beyond my lvl. So unless you are at the peak, don´t talk about how easy and boring flying is.

    Especially compared to any other occupation in this game. Doesn´t really take a genius to drive a Tank and get kills, or Lock-On with a Launcher. Your Tank also doesn´t explode when you failed at driving and bump a hard surface. So even aside from the discussion how high or low the skill ceiling for aircraft is, its definately higher than the ceiling for any other vehicular acitivity in this game, aswell as for most infantry based actions.
  17. EvilKoala

    Compared to an actual simulation, it is easy and boring.. Air combat in PS2 comes down to about 70% SA, 25% gunnery, and 5% maneuvering. What you consider a dogfight is probably more often you initiating an attack on someone and that person beginning to turn frantically trying to find his attacker. And even for the few cases of a head on merge, its still more SA than maneuver as all ESFs perform almost the same and the narrow cockpit view and lack of Track IR make tracking a target while maneuvering more difficult than it should be.
  18. InMedeasRage

    L2Read (the op's actual post and not the post you imagine he wrote).

    OP wants a learning curve and not master-this-technique-or-perish. OP wants planes to be goofy, anti-grav capable fliers but not fliers that can anti-grav about during full-on flight (leading to mttop silliness). OP want's the zephyr/dalton to not be the end-all, be-all anti-air defense for the liberator (which is currently leading to mttop silliness).

    So really, when you say you know nearly every aspect, what everyone else is reading: you learnt the one winning move and now clutch onto that silly little thing because you might have to actually dog fight if/when the devs get around to addressing it.
    • Up x 1
  19. SolLeks

    One thing I have found to be true is this. If you get 100% outclassed by an enemy ESF pilot, send them a /w of good fight, then ask them what you did wrong to get you killed so quick. 90% of the time they will tell you (unless they are in another fight).

    Hell, I was fighting SNAFU wile chatting with him for around an hour the other day, it got to the point where we would both go to the same place and specifically hunt each other. I bet both of us have gotten better from that experience alone.
    • Up x 1
  20. Shinrah

    Makes sense, it´s easy and boring, but it´s more difficulty than it should be!
    Also, anyone can win an engagement when he/she´s the one initiating the attack, especially from behind. Skill is needed to come out on top after you got jumped by one or even more opposing ESF´s. Thats what distinguishes the Ace Pilots in PS2 from the rest, and thats what requires a certain skillset. No one ever claimed it is super difficult to shoot down someone whos escaping in a straight line, or starts to panic and crashs into a hard surface, or performs predictable evasive maneuvers. And ofc it´s "basic" compared to a real flight simulation, which this is not, and never intended to be. If you want a realistic flight simulation, mby you should play one? Not like BF3 and other "similiar" games to PS2 do any better in that regard.