Air Combat is too Difficult

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by urida, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. Dealman

    Personally I love flak, playing as anti-air MAX is probably my favourite thing to do in Planetside 2. I don't mind the long TTK, it's immensely satisfying.
  2. LordKrelas

    You love shooting into the air, praying to hit something, and having no prayer to kill it, while having to sit inside a spawn room invulnerable in order to survive more than 4 seconds, for the price of 450 nanites.

    Flak is a **** mechanic.
    It can't kill, it barely works unless you mass it, with outspending your opponent's single Aircraft with dedicated AA platforms..
    Where that Pilot basically is screwed at that point, or can retreat entirely - making it basically self-defeating.
    The aircraft survived, knows the AA's positions, and you out-spent them.
    And the Pilot also can't interact with anything near the murder-ball.

    And any AA not in a murder-ball is basically a free kill for the aircraft..

    Flak is a ****** mechanic.
    As it can't logically be effective, given its near impossible to dodge.

    If you like being basically the most expensive temporary spray & pray that doesn't even shoot-down a single plane..
    You go for it.
    I rather a weapon that actually works on Killing the enemy asset, draining their nanites, and not over-spending them to just 'spook them'...
    Let alone one, that I aim, not just fire into the sky hoping RNG blesses me.
    • Up x 1
  3. Dealman

    Eeh, I beg to differ. I've killed plenty of ESF, Valks and Liberators with my MAX. It's difficult cause you have to lead ahead of the target and predict their movements - I really like that challenge and think I'm pretty decent at it. If they retreat that's fine, I expect them to. I don't get frustrated because I didn't get a kill.

    I don't sit in spawn rooms at all, I prefer to spawn elsewhere and try to flank the enemy. With MAX suits I like to be on top of buildings or hills.

    I think they're actually rather accurate compared to Skyguard for example.

    How about stop assuming everyone plays or should play like you do? I enjoy AA MAX, I think I'm good at it and it feels like a contributing factor to larger battles.
  4. LordKrelas

    Deterrent weapon.
    The enemy remains alive, knows your position, has taken its pick of your allies, and loses no nanites for being intercepted or engaged by you, which does stop nor trade deaths.
    It merely shortens the attack for the moment, until it returns shortly later, or engages others, for no cost.
    While your allies & yourself have paid for this, with nanites & deaths.

    Anything killed by Flak, has been exposed to numerous sources of fire over an extended period.
    The ability to hit with flak, is simple: It is an explosive cloud centered around projectiles with a rather large detonation radius.
    Aircraft can not actually do anything outside of endure or leave - And without excessive levels can operate fully inside it.
    And kill any target it pleases including the AA source.

    Flak, in AA in general, is the only weapon system, that can not kill the intended target type by itself, and comes at a nanite cost, in addition to inability to effectively engage any other target but the intended.

    If you can stand in a field, or "flank" an airborne vehicle that can literally cross the entire map in seconds, over any & all terrain, use all levels of height, and needs only to resupply once & awhile, and can reach the warpgate itself at any time..
    You have been left alive by the Pilot.
    You have no means to survive as an AA max, outside of spawn if engaged by Any target type.
    Vehicles will maul you.
    Infantry will maul you.
    The Smallest & Cheapest aircraft will maul you.
    Your entire ability to survive outside of spawn, is entirely on the Pilot's choice to not bother with you.
    It has you on TTK, on health, on mobility, and even has accuracy.
    Only Galaxies & Liberators could be considered to have spent as many nanites as a Max unit has for this.
    ESF's the AA max killers, have spent less.

    Any MAX on a mountain top, or height point, is literally a Max unable to hide or run.
    You are only alive by the choice of the pilots in the situations you decided to open fire in.

    As well, it's hard to miss with all of the flak projectiles.
    It is however hard to hit with them all.
    In order to actually engage an aircraft that decides to Notice you, you need 100% accuracy, and have the longest TTK on them.
    They have the shortest on you.

    Flak is a **** weapon system.
    Flak itself can not go beyond these issues.

    We need proper anti-air, not enlarged flak ranges.
    This only promotes the "Murderball" of AA, that is needed, while also causing Pilots to need to engage everything less than that.. Whom suffer from aircraft basically either engaging them, or suffering from massive-range Chip-damage.
    While AA units outside of these balls, can not be anything less than fodder due to being Flak.

    So rather than think "Flak is great, as I hit things"
    Consider how AV, AI, and everything else but AA actually kills the target, and doesn't need to outnumber the target to work.
    As for the level of resources needed to combat 1 pilot, I could've gotten enough AV to wipe out an murderous large amount of vehicles for less nanites.

    And the engagement for that 1 pilot is either "No challenge" due to not enough AA, whom he farms.
    Or "Enough AA" where it's either retreat or explode from chip-damage overload.

    Which is a poor experience.
  5. Dealman

    Each to their own. I happen to quite like it, I've had plenty of pilots try to bring me down - some succeed, some don't. I think the cat & mouse play is pretty entertaining and intense.

    You don't like it, too bad. But stop trying to enforce your opinion onto others.

    If I was as obsessed with getting kill confirms, I'd be using other equipment. I think it's fun, I play it because I think it's fun - not to get kills.
  6. LordKrelas

    What other equipment will kill the Pilot slaughtering allies, nailing sunderers, and nuking the entire assault?
    As anything less, that Pilot has all their nanites, profited entirely from the exchange, and will attack again from any angle they please.

    Fighting Aircraft from the ground is basically a struggle of either No-air making your nanites wasted.
    Or you have half the force as AA, where it diverts to kill anyone of smaller size - larger engagements having been reaped once, become impossible to be near as aircraft for more than moments..
    As AA is either "a scratch here" or "Dead in 3 seconds"

    I do not play the game of 'Hunt the pilot with every advantage' when picking a dedicated nanite-counter weapon, the only weapons available to even fight the pilot with for a game of "I am prey always"
    Try this logic against a tank, when your motive is to not "Enjoy the experience of being hunted by a superior machine"...
    But to defend against it.
    To engage it, not for their entertainment, but as it is needed to progress.

    G2A is ******.
    Flak ranges would not help.
    We've had further - it not do ****.

    We do not need longer ranged flak.
    We need a better anti-air, that isn't the Harasser-from-hell-insanity.
    As until then, air engages, ground isn't able to properly defend, unless someone of late, pulls the broken harasser.

    It's all fun, till you can't do **** since 1 single guy popped up, in an ESF, and has enough time to regenerate all nanites, fly back there, and do it again, for hours.
  7. Dealman

    I'm not even sure what you're on about anymore... And what's with the nanite obsession? If they can keep doing what they like, isn't that good? I can almost always get a new MAX after I've died. I can almost always get a new MBT after I lost one.

    You should need more than one man to kill a vehicle. If one infantryman could reliably kill any ESF coming close - the skies would be dead empty. And in all honesty I think the skies are empty enough as it is.
    • Up x 1
  8. AtckAtck

    The recent patches totally destroyed lib air to air combat, they don't want daltons as air to air weapons it seems, so now you need 12 shots in an enemy air fight lib vs lib (that is if you hit the belly). Totally crazy. Do you even know how hard it is so land even 1 maybe 2 shots?! But 12?! Hell no!

    Give us a real air to air lib belly gun for those that want to go vs air. Thanks!

    And concerning flak: Skyguard is as broken as ever und the ranger harrasser from hell now owns the skys... Well done (Not.)
    Buff my beloved skyguard. Thanks.
    • Up x 1
  9. LordKrelas

    As Air costs nanites.
    The only AA weapons outside of lock-ons cost nanites.
    I am spending nanites for a dedicated weapon that is piss-poor at everything else, and can not even stop the smallest aircraft from ****** my allies.

    Doing what they like?
    You mean having either no threat from dedicated AA, or being unable to fly due to too much AA?

    A single one-man fighter taking numerous AA tanks of equal price.
    That is ******.

    As well, sure if you aren't in a squad, platoon, or in any way trying to not have your entire force die to singular aircraft, which is destroying your spawns, your tanks, and ensuring the enemy crushes you to the previous base, where your side loses more..
    So the alert is lost entirely, at the pace it is going..

    The Skies are empty, as ESF pilots with the reverse-maneuver hunt new pilots at the warpgates.
    And this game has crap flight control.

    Does not mean, AA is the "I had fun, by achieving **** all" while AV works, and AI most certainly works.

    As well, Dumbfires, the hardest damn shot to land with the low velocity, was a one-shot kill.
    It's when the ESF hovered in the sky, to become a gun-turret from hell mowing down the spawn room to squads..
  10. No0T

    I already produced the solution to this... Is making tanks not be able to hit aircrafts so easy by reducing their turrets turn speed, at the same time, make AA stronger but not capable to aim down so... That way people would fly lower... And so the so called "skilled" would learn that all what they know is to aim... While flying low would add a lot more to the air fight because it would be easier to miss or block atacks by flying low well. And so instead of aiming well the skill needed would be FLYING WELL, DAMN IT!!
  11. Prudentia

    so make the skyguard even more worthless?
    • Up x 1
  12. TR5L4Y3R

    late on this one but the thing is with the dificult flightcontrols in place
    particuarly those weapons are mandatory for beginners to even hope getting damage on a opposing esf
    noseguns can be as strong as they want but if as a beginner/novice you fight against any decent pilot chances are he gets to clip you first before you can land any shot on him and he is either likely more able to avoid those critical shots from you than you would be from him .. this needs to change first to level aimability and avoidability of fire ...

    cheap esf cost means there always will be airpresence that farms infantry in that case i would ask for even more damaging lock ons or easier to aim dumbfire or fly-by-wire missiles ...
  13. TR5L4Y3R

    i have one problem with your view .. you are basically saying this game should not have any weapon whatsoever that just keeps the enemy away, it´s either kill infantry/destroy vehicle or nothing ..
    i don´t realy understand that .. this is a game about capturing/defending territorry for the most part if as a grounded AA player i can keep planes from shooting on any of my allies allowing them to keep entering a base or defend against the opponents infantry that happen to be outside even it its just for a couple seconds to a minute is that that enough of a job for me to do?

    why does it have to be purely about killing? sure killing will be always more effective for keeping the opponent away longer no one is gonna argue that ...
    but a weapon that simply keeps the opponent from advancing by using areadenial has no right to exist or what? considering we have a couple of infantryguns that do that why can´t we have those for vehicle/aircraft?
  14. Demigan

    Because flak doesnt deter enough, because aircraft have the option to still operate in large-scale battles even when AA is present with only extra repair downtime, and worst of all that aircraft have the option to move to another area without AA, rendering the local AA worthless and meaning that the deterrent has only moved the problem somewhere else.

    Theres also the unfairness of requiring dedicated weapons to defend yourself. Defend, not attack. While the aircraft could pick the worst of the worst loadout and almost automatically escape any ground-based AA weapon in the game despite that.
    • Up x 1
  15. Sariias

    I really, really, really do not like being able to see ESFs from an AA turret and not being able to hit them- Especially since there is no obvious indication that ESF's are out of the turret's range. It's hard to practice leading targets when you don't even know if a target is hittable at all.

    At the same time, ESF controls are difficult, the roll axis seems crazy fast compared to the other two, sometimes flipping me upside down when I did not expect to roll that much and other times there's not much rolling at all. More importantly I haven't spent the time learning to fly them because largely they are expensive and opportunities to learn how to dogfight are limited because you generally get wtfpwned within a few minutes. That got annoying pretty fast. It feels like- From a newbie flier standpoint, I can do more damage to troops and vehicles on an ATV than I can in an ESF, with less downtime and less cost, and avoid having every pro hotshot zeroing on you the moment you come into view.

    I do love to fly a Valk though, and sometimes dance with Mossies and Scythes, all the while honking the horn, until they get so annoyed they go look for other targets.
  16. TR5L4Y3R

    so i take it your problem is that current flak isn´t universally useful
    because forcing aircraft to go somewhere else is kinda the point when you want to create a area denial zone ..

    any lock on has some leway to be useful outside of it´s aa role and walkers are still useful against vehicles so those are imo weapons you can defend and attack with

    skyguards, rangers and bursters are the only true dedicated aa weapon
    otherwise you could argue that maybe dumbfire and fly-by-wire/laserguided missiles should get a increase in projectlilespeed
    to be a more useful universal weapon ..

    i suppose the main problem asside from SG/R/B not being useful outside aa is that
    engineers and vehicles lack aa options

    engy turrets simply could get a higher pitch on the ai and av turret and vehicles could get a fly-by-wire/laserguided missilelauncher
    give a halberdeskturret to the engineer

    .. i am probably repeating myself as we talked about this many times before
  17. adamts01

    I completely agree that these noob weapons are a result of bad controls and too wide a performance gap in the air. But the noob weapons made a bad situation worse. Controls need to be fixed, that's the core of the problem.

    I've always proposed nosegun only ESF should be half price, so infantry wouldn't be farmed nearly as much as currently, as there would always be a threat of enemy air and A2G farmers couldn't focus so intently on farming.
    • Up x 1
  18. Demigan

    Flak has two problems:
    It's not universally useful as it becomes useless afterwards.
    It tries to create an area-denial zone. Imagine if flak was universally useful and there before the aircraft arrived. Then you have the problem that aircraft have a lot more trouble operating in the area, and aircraft would have to deal with flak that they can't really dodge and can only avoid by flying away in a straight line away from the source. That's not good gameplay for the aircraft.

    That's why flak needs to change, that's why deterrents are a bad method of handling any gameplay in PS2. Denying for example all tanks from participating in a fight would diminish the game's variation and playability, and so it does for aircraft. Ofcourse aircraft suffer from more problems than G2A, but by removing deterrents and introducing other weapons you could make a start at improving aircraft, at the same time you've already improved the G2A game.

    Lock-ons have some leeway, yes. And as long as Oracle was alive did you know that any AA lock-on that could be dumbfired killed more groundvehicles than it did aircraft? Yeah that's how bad they are at actually killing aircraft. That said, yes they are the only AA weapon that has some measure of versatility, especially since they are on the HA who also has an LMG and shield to deal with infantry simultaneously. Walkers deal too little damage and with the elevation nerfs they have a lot of trouble hitting vehicles to be effectively used against them, so they need some extra utility as well. Walkers could have been the easiest to reform into an AI weapon on the side, but they never did for some reason.

    "the only true dedicated AA weapons"? You realize you just named more than half of the G2A weapons in the game?

    Yes, while an ESF could equip the worst of the worst loadout it still has no problem escaping dedicated G2A weapons. But with 95% of the loadouts a vehicle or infantry picks they are absolutely at the mercy of the aircraft and pray that there's some roof cover nearby. By giving most vehicles access to an (extra) roof-mounted weapon controlled by the driver that has a high elevation and G2A capabilities you could solve part of that. These top-mounted weapons wouldn't need to be overly powerful, but at least capable of threatening enemy aircraft that try to kill them. Ofcourse since it wouldn't be a dedicated weapon choice it wouldn't be likely that the tank survives against a dedicated AV-oriented aircraft, but the point is that they would have some chance to protect themselves against aircraft.
    You could also equip that top-mounted weapon with utilities that help safeguard the vehicle, such as a small temporary skyshield, creating holograms to try and mislead aircraft and more.

    I think that such idea's have merit.
    • Up x 1
  19. raffa2

    In my opinion, what discourages the most air combat, is the nanites cost.
    Not only it costs a lot, but for how long you may survive with it considering all the threats vitually possible.
    From AA nests, to gankers, your survival expectation with an ESF often is not long enough to replenish its cost.

    On the contrary, right now the harasser is the most cost effective vehicle in the game.
  20. adamts01

    Lower costs would let masochists get in more flight hours, but what keeps people from flying is knowing that 9 times out of 10 you're going to run in to a situation where you're hopelessly ****** with zero chance of even putting up a fight. The performance gap is too large between noobs, average players and vets, and terribly implemented noob weapons do nothing but enable gank squads. Air needs to be redesigned from the ground up if it's ever going to be good.
    • Up x 1