Air Combat is too Difficult

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by urida, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. Insignus

    AA is now fine. Stop complaining about it.
  2. adamts01

    It's fine at entirely obsoleting air, yet again. It's absurd how terrible the devs are at balancing air/ground, absolutely absurd.
  3. Hajakizol

    Have you tried to get a tank in the same proximity to enemies in a base fight? How long do they last? Why are planes some special snowflake that must be able to fly over enemy occupied space engage and kill a target and fly off? Spawnrooms dont move. So you can avoid los to the doors. Thats where base layout knowledge comes in. The same thing tanks and infantry have to know. Why planes complain about spawn room campers is beyond me. Why are YOU camping the spawn room? Remember what happened when aa could not fire out? Plane abuse. I would be happy if you COULD NOT fire out with aa from a spawn, IF my AA killed ESF as fast as an ESF can kill AA max at close range. Libs are in good spot vs aa same with valks in my opinion. TR lockdown skews buster effectiveness alot. Only one side has lockdown and aa is balanced around it.

    We need more pilots and better interaction between air/air and air/ground. More skill and more ground to air ambushes that require skill like the air/ground ambushes that happen often. Banshee appearing and killing some dudes. Sall good if the same plane cane be wiped from the sky in the same fashion.
  4. adamts01

    Tanks are easy mode with HESH.

    So pilots are snowflakes because they want to take part in a fight? OK

    Plenty of spawnrooms cover most air space, but that's nothing new, it's OP Rangers and Strikers that leave ESF with no choice but to farm small fights and camp warpgates, yet again. GG Daybreak.

    This is the big problem with AA. About everything is a no-skill deterrent. Daybreak just can't get it right.

    A 3-man, 450 nanite lib with composite can't take a 2-man, 150 nanite Ranger Harasser. So no, Libs are not in a good spot.

    Add Strikers to that list. I've been playing for a year and I've never seen balance so messed up or a patch fail as terribly as this one. Plenty of times I flat out can't even get to the continent to group up with my friends. Epic fail Daybreak, epic.
    • Up x 1
  5. Hajakizol

    I agree with the ranger being too strong especially on cheap disposo chassis like the ant and harasser. CAI is the harassers time to be imba. And only one side has lockdown and strikers. And the phoenix is not to be spoken of outside a spawnroom. If you think that flying over an enemy base solo and expect to fly over their airspace when they have AA up from multiple sources without ground support and expect to kill something and further expect to get away.. thats snowflake level of obtuseness. Air should decimate ground and infantry without aa in the vicinity. Conversly AA should force pilots to pick thier fights and and harass stragglers and solo elements. As it is now esf fly through burster fire kill a couple of dudes hit ab and fire suppression amd fly off to repair and rinse and repeat. There needsto be skillfull play on both sides. Now only air get to be skilled and so many think they need the power because skill. If both air and aa were equal skill there would not need to be the imbalance of power between the two. Stealth and flare combined is a potent counter to the airs infantry based counter lock-ons. I see that combo alot.
    • Up x 1
  6. adamts01

    I agree with everything but this, which implies that some fights are just off limits to air. Deterrent weapons are a bad idea. Conflict should be promoted and enjoyable, but that can never happen when aircraft are deterred from even entering the hex.
    • Up x 1
  7. zaspacer

    What are you babbling about?

    All 3 ESFs have their pros and cons.

    Scythe is the best ESF in face-to-face, 1-on-1 duels, but it's the slowest. It's hover also is a headache on the ground (slides on hills, easy to bounce and flip over on landing, etc), it's hud color blends with sky, it lacks a 3rd-person-view engine position animation, it's an easier target for Vanguards to OHK. The lolpods are twin-linked which makes them clunkier as AI but easier as AV. The LPPA is terribad at A2A vs. ESFs (unless opponent is much lower skill level), but it becomes crushing AI if there is no AA around. This is the ESF that DonAlfrago and his pack dominate Connery with (and chased away the Ace players to Emerald).

    Reaver has the fastest burst speed and can chase any ESF down, but it has a large front which makes it the worst in 1-on-1 duels, and it has various lesser problems like too loud, gun noise too distinct, cockpit obstructed view, model can be awkward near objects. Vanguards don't OHK it cause they're on the same Faction. Low Mag and high dps make them popular with players who have good aim, makes it worse for players with bad aim. Hammer is often very powerful, including as A2A vs. ESFs, but requires high skill to use well. This is a favorite ESF for Aces who like to play solo or small team Ganking (ESF farming).

    Mossie has a tiny non-front profile which makes it better in multi-ESF duels, it is faster than a Scythe, it has lower dps but fires rapid tracers and has larger Mag which helps people with bad aim, it has a nicer spammy lolpods as AI, Banshee often OP and decent A2A. They don't have to deal with Striker cause they are on the same Faction. Tiny model makes it very nimble and easy to dodge around ground terrain/object at close range.
  8. TR5L4Y3R

    whatever ammount is neccesary for players to be able to participate in a airfight and be a fair threat ... also guaranted dmg does not neccesarily equal quick kill or kill at all for that matter it may as well be just supportive or suplimental dmg ...

    remember you still need 5 coyotesalvos or 4 air to air lockons for a default esf over a timeperiod a experienced nosegunner may have killed you twice ...
  9. TR5L4Y3R

    if you speak about air to air fights then yes it's annoying to fight in an area that has high ammounst of g2a but speaking about air to groundfights these g2a do what you want for air vs air to be ...
    it's just as frustrating as infantry to be farmed from air while focusing on infantry as it is frustrating to be shot down from g2a while focusing on air ... but realy that's simply the jist of things or would you rather want to have esf's be isolated from infantry and groundvehicles?

    if you say that you disaggree with pilots having to pick their fights i interprete that as you don't want to have to bother with groundbased AA that is meant to be areadenial or the pilot facing the consequence of taking damage if staying too long ..
    AA is not just meant to tickle after all ...

    as a sniper you can't just take any place to fire from like in the middle of an infantryfight ...
    as engineer you can't just face HA's upfront or stay in the open against vehicles.. as a harrasser you can't just face a mbt upfront and expect taking it down without moving .. in that way those classes also have to pick their fights or accept the higher risk ... remember as aircraft you have the main advantage of free movement and speed over other combatoptions ...

    deterenceweapons a bad idea?
    if it weren't for deterenceweapons it would be either too much trouble for beginners to hit air at all or pilots would complain over being hit too hard depending on how the weapon is ballanced ... deterenceweapons are neccesary as a means against vehicles to not just stay in one place for a period of time and farm away but also allow them time enough to escape ... for the same reasons you don't want every tankcannon to ohk infantry ... the AP cannon is not useless it has been adjusted torwards its role it is meant to be played as ...
  10. adamts01

    I believe infantry should have places where they can fight with semi-isolation from vehicles and I think air needs something similar. Increasing the flight ceiling would help tremendously. Some Skyknights ridiculously ask for flak immunity or lock-on immunity, I just want a little more separation from the ground. Likewise, I think infantry needs more protection from air, something like Demigan's tunnel proposal out of every exterior spawn room. And there should also be less ability for vehicles to camp spawnrooms and points as effectively as they do.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've heard it all before. In reality, the Reaver is the undisputed loser. Only a very, very small percentage of pilots have a good enough aim to make up for that hitbox. Put that same pilot in a Scythe and he'd easily beat himself in a Reaver, and put him in a Mossy and he'd easily do better against a group. The single thing the Reaver does well is gank someone with the Rotary and then run to safety, that's the single thing it does better than the others. You've go to be high to think they're equal but different.
  11. zaspacer

    Reaver is the ESF of choice for Ace Gankers. If you BUFF Reaver in terms of hitbox or aim, you just just boost that Ace Ganker package all the more.

    I am TOTALLY cool with "fixing" the Reaver if that's what Reaver pilots want. And that fix is: reduce it's hitbox, reduce it's noise, remove the 1st person cockpit obstruction, reduce the Afterburner top speed, lower the dps but increase the MAG to compensate.

    And that's not even adjusting Hammer. Adjusting Hammer to make it easier for less skilled players would be to raise the MAG, lower the damage, and give it an auto-fire by holding the button down.

    The Reaver is the ESF with the most skill required, but it has payoff for that skill. Hammer/Vortek both takes the most skill to hit targets, but they give high reward for being able to have high accuracy.

    I'm all for making the Reaver an ESF that is easier to get results with, I am not for changing the Reaver so it still is great (or even better) at its current roles, and also is even with the other ESFs in the other main roles too.

    Depends on the duel. If they see each other from close, then the Scythe wins. If they see each other from far, the Reaver can choose to engage the Scythe or avoid the duel, the Scythe can neither avoid the Reaver if the Reaver want to engage or run the Reaver down and force the fight if the Reaver runs. If it's Ganking, then whoever the Ganker in wins in that situation.

    Also, to be totally clear, the ESF learning curve is SUUUUUUUUUPER long and stretched out. It's very rare to run into someone who is at your skill level. And since "skill > all" in close duels, things like ESF version, wingmount, etc. don't tend to matter as much. This is how I used to run a A2G ESF yet be able to kill most ESFs that attacked me. And the ones I couldn't kill, almost all of them were just better pilots than me (or Gank squads) and I wasn't gonna win even with a better loadout.

    The big difference in ESF for non-Ace's, is the slow Scythe speed. After that things don't matter as much. I stink at Hammer and Vortek, but I can just use Pods for AI and in place of Vortek I can just use Kestrel or M20 Mustang (oh, btw, names for Reaver noseguns overlap too much, nerf that ****). I do hate the Scythe Pods for AI, and the LPPA just leaves you terribad vs. ESFs, so I don't like that, but it's not a deal breaker.

    The reason I played Mossie the most? Scythe was too slow and NC didn't have any HA long range Rocket Launcher (I liked to switch between ESF, Sunderer, Infil, and long range Infantry AV as the situation needed).

    Heads up group ESF fights are just not common. Ganking happens, mismatched fights happen, death balls of noob ESFs happen, and even numbers of ESFs that stare at each other happen. But you rarely get those really cool giant Air duels. And when you do, people run out of Resources or the numbers become uneven, and they end.

    Also, even in bigger fights, if the numbers are even, it still comes down to skill a far as who is gonna win. Actual ESF (again) just does not matter so much. A2AM *used* to make a big difference in group ESF fights, but those have been nerfed into oblivion by Devs.

    VERY few things in PS2 are equal but different. It really comes down to what you are doing, and then with what you have access to. Most players who use ESF do their handful of things with them, and so what matters for them is the tool for the job, and one that fits/optimizes their skill profile.

    And for Ace's, they tend to spend a massive amount of their time ganking people. Sure, they'll fire some A2G at a few "peasants" when it strikes them (even if the have an A2A loadout and have to just snipe Infantry), but for the most part they are Ganking. And for them, they love the Reaver.
  12. adamts01

    You're talking about such a small fraction of the community that is accurate enough to make up for that hitbox that it's almost not worth mentioning. After dedicating a year to flying ever faction and meeting every pilot I could, I've yet to find a single one who does better in the Reaver, not one. I do admit it can gank unaware pilots faster, but honestly, any ESF ganks well if the other guy is unaware. I'd honestly place the Scythe as the best ganker, as it seems to be silent half the time, and you can hear Reavers from a mile away. Ganking ability just isn't a redeeming factor, not even close, and I don't think a dps buff would change that outcome. I would also be fine with leaving that how it is so as not to buff ganking and instead focusing on faction specific qualities. It already has a 20kph faster vertical speed than the other two ESF, so I say double that difference. It NEEDS its afterburners to function, and is the most hurt by wing mounts, so I say increase the base fuel amount and recharge rate. The time it takes to enter/exit hover could also be cut in half. Daybreak seems completely stuck in their rut of balancing solely based on dps, and it's a real shame. I'd like the Reaver to stay uniqe, which is why I always argue against hitbox modifications.
  13. zaspacer

    You tell me the Reavers edges don't matter... but you aren't willing to dump them to get buffs comparable to the other ESFs. So you come across as someone who just wants their unit buffed, and doesn't care about balance.

    ESF Gankers are some of the most toxic aspects of the Air game. Buff the Reaver and Nerf Ganking all at once.

    The Reaver fix is:
    Reduce it's hitbox, reduce it's noise, remove the 1st person cockpit obstruction, reduce the Afterburner top speed, lower the dps but increase the MAG to compensate.

    And no, Scythe is not the best Ganker. They are too slow to chase down opponents. They can't catch ESF that see them at a distance and run, and they are clunky at chasing down runners and finishing them quickly (and before they get drawn into territory they don't want to be in).
  14. adamts01

    Gankers are terribly toxic, and that's the reason I don't want to see damage buffed back to where it was. And I don't want it quieter, that would just increase its ability to gank. I know the Scythe is the worst at ganking on paper, but for some reason I'm able to sneak up on people better with it, and get jumped by more scythes than any other aircraft, they just seem to run silent at times. I'd rather make it louder than make the Reaver quieter. I agree with the cockpit obstructions, but not your other ideas. Yes, it would balance the aircraft, but it would be incredibly bland and would lose all of its faction specific uniqueness. And it's not even my unit, I main TR, I just see that NC is at a disadvantage in almost every aspect of the game.
  15. TR5L4Y3R

    infantry is isolated to various degrees from vehicles depending on the base layout .. protection against air comes in the form of useable AA ..
    raising the mapceiling is a technical matter i believe ... but also a problem for not just have galaxies or valks camp on the ceiling
    were g2a can´t ever reliably hit it making sunderers less valueable .. and then of course the OPtitle related esf´s being such a mess to control making airsuperiorityfights a matter for skyknights ...

    so this needs to be solved step by step

    1. make esf controls easier so the average player is capable to participate in airfights and somewhat reliably take out valks, gals and libs with small wings of 2 to to 3 but also be able to defend yours ..
    2. raise the skyceiling as to a degree the engine supports it, allows airsuperiorityfights but also keep gals and valks from just sitting out of G2Arange indefinitely ..
    3. adjust g2a accordingly ..
    • Up x 1
  16. zaspacer

    I am all for reduced damage by ESFs vs. most tagets. But reduced damage vs. other ESFs is part of the skill-gap problem.

    Similar to the HA problem, if you extend TTK, it gives the target more time to survive, react, and employ aim, dodge, mitigation, /heal, etc. And at some tipping point, extending the TTK turns the game into a skill-reward game, and not a tactics, strategy, preparation, caution, surprise, numbers, loadout, etc. game.

    I'd be fun changing the ESF sound profiles to all have loud-to-opponent and distinct movement and weapon sounds.

    Though I do hate the loudnes-to-self, in that it hurts the ability to hear the very important external sounds.

    If you implemented a better visual tracking display, that could help replace the reliance of Air on sound. Which could mean pilots could start using non-Air group voice chats again without having some loud rambler kill your situation awareness.

    Leaving the Reaver with top burst speed will keep Reaver the Gank ESF. Especially while A2AM is nerfed.

    Leaving the Reaver with smaller Mag and faster DPS will keep lower skill Aim players from using half the Reaver noseguns.

    Leaving the Reaver with a larger front hibox will just continue the main factor for the outcry about the Reaver being the worst.

    ES weapons are at their best when they provide variety and a sense of faction personality. ES weapons are at their worst when it results in 1-2 Factions lacking a fundamental tool on the battlefield -or- when 1-2 Factions get a game warping OP Faction tool.

    In balance ways, PS2 would be better off if the Faction differences were more about cosmetic variations, and not radical access-to-types-of-play variations. It would also be easier in monetization and labor budget for DBG.

    In super-cool flavor ways, PS2 would be better off just tossing micro re-balancing to the wind, and just make every Faction crazy different, each playing a totally different type of gameplay, and balancing shortfalls being lost behind ever breaking waves of Dev created wacky (and meta shifting) new content to explore and deal with.

    When making a game, you really have to choose between balance and personality winning out when they conflict. Otherwise, it leads to gaps in your game.

    Reaver Noseguns and their high skill floor don't help NC's player performance. NC HA lacking an extreme Range AV doesn't help (this to me was the biggest limit of NC). NC MBT lacking the impact on non-close-Tank units doesn't help.

    It's like fixing a computer's hardware. You can swap out each part with a healthy computer to figure out what is causing the problem. If there is Dev interest in balancing NC, they could do it by defining each ES difference, and then looking at their impact (or impact of stacked-unit ES differences)
  17. adamts01

    So back to where Daybreak has always failed. Ground has to kill air defensively, but not dominate air battles. That's why I think the lock-on mechanic is the wrong way to go, and peppering the entire sky with flak is also backwards. It really comes down to two different schools of thought. I want defensive kills with AA weapons that are viable ground weapons so the shooter stays busy. Or you have deterrent weapons that keep fights from happening in the first place.

    Very good point. Maybe give different aircraft different flight ceilings? The Gal is built to shoot targets above it.

    That was Reaver specific. Plenty of people want to give it higher dps, but I'd rather be a little more creative with solutions.

    Stealth is the problem. It really should be a variable radar signature, not this hard counter that we get at rank 5.

    The stock gun is arguably the best in the game. That low mag size really only applies to the Vortek, and yes, it's high risk high reward, but thankfully rotaries aren't the end all be all weapon.
  18. LodeTria

    I think radar-countering is available at rank 1, the higher ranks just lower and eventually remove your auto-spotted on mini-map icon.
    • Up x 1
  19. adamts01

    It lessens auto-detect range and increases missile lock time each upgrade and removes auto-detect at level 5 making it the only real option for all ESF regardless of role. I still think it shouldn't completely negate auto-detect, maybe let rank 5 reduce it down to 100m. I also think wing mounted weapons should add to radar signature, and that missile tracking speed also be related to radar signature. Flare should also be ammo-based and temporarily cut radar signature in half, maybe for only 2 seconds, not be a hard counter to missiles.
    • Up x 1
  20. Kristan

    I think the problem of flight combat difficulty is all about controls. They were made simulator-ish, but in a very complicated way. Planetside 1 flight controls were simple, you weren't able to perform barrel rolls or other kind of loops. But you actually aimed with mouse up, down, left and right. And I tell you that air combat was much more fair for everyone, it was also fun. You could have step up against a skilled player and still had chances. In PS2 I have installed Ejection Seat instead of fire suppression. Because as soon as I meet a skyknight I feel like not wasting my time and bail without a second thought.

    Also the BS mechanic that is called Reverse Maneuver. You either know how to use it or you're a goner. But that thing is an actual control bug that devs decided to keep as a feature. Some people compare it to Tribes skiing, that was also a bug, but now crucial part of gameplay. Yet I tell you what... Skiing in Tribes is fun, while Reverse Maneuvering in Planetside is not. It's something I don't want to learn, to be honestly. Waltzing in air trying to land shots and not to hit the ground is annoying as hell. Why the hell do you need Racer Airframe? Why do you need Dogfighter Airframe? All you need is Hover Airframe to be effective at RM. Leave me out of this. I prefer War Thunder or PS1 kind of air combat.

    Also I really hate that devs have removed gun offset of ESFs, so your nosegun bullets come straight from your crosshair. And this is a horrible idea because that removes depth perception. You can't understand how fast are your bullets flying to get a proper lead of the target. You just point it at random and hope if those dots that come from the middle of your screen actually hit something. I even do a better job at hitting ESFs with Liberator nosegun, since it has the offset!