Since NS max weapons don't seem to be coming anytime soon, I thought maybe it's time to just reduce the statistical difference between different factions, so that the max weapons maintain their flavors while perform with more or less the same level of effectiveness. A 6 pellet infantry shotgun (semi-auto) is 225 rpm across all factions, whereas the NC max equivalent (same bullet damage, pellet spread, damage drop off, accuracy, & magazine size) Scattercannon is 180 rpm (20% less) with short (about 3s) and long reloads (about 4s) both around 1 second longer than the non-max shotgun. Things are quite different on the TR & VS side. The VS max Quasar, for example, has 337rpm, which is a 37% less than the VS equivalent (same bullet damage & damage drop off, close reload time) Corvus (a 526rpm mid/long range AR for medic), bigger magazine, almost the same terribly hip accuracy but without the ability to aim-fire accurately like Corvus. Now, shotguns are meant to kill in close range even without aiming, which is why shotgun max are powerful despite the reduction in combat effectiveness, but TR & VS max guns received bigger penalties in combat effectiveness, which makes them inferior in cqc than NC max, and fails to shine in mid range infantry fight either (unable to accurately aim & shoot like non-max infantry). When a player look at the stats of various max weapons and chooses which one to buy based on effectiveness, the difference is obvious in comparison, and becomes even more so in real battles. It's no wonder why alot of TR maxes run with Pounders (VS with Comets) in infantry fight because only their AV-vehicle weapons can fend off NC maxes and do a reasonably good job at mid-range. Sorry for the long thread, but I felt that some explanations would be necessary to propose higher RPM for TR & VS machinguns, because they should behave more like close-range carbine/AR/SMG and not some handicapped long-range versions if maxes are designed to be superior in cqc. Of course, if the devs' intention was indeed to make NC max superior (like many friends of mine have suspected), then perhaps now is the time to make things right as the new DBG moves forward.
if they did that, the NC Max would be even worst since it's one advantage is completely nullified, or you will make the other factions pointless, as they will have such a massive spread they can't be used for anything outside point blank. Why would you encourage the devs to just give all the factions the same toys? We have 3 factions so they can be different, not different colors. The new topguns for tanks coming out really annoys me. Instead of saying "Hey all out factions are missing a weapon to help fill a certain roll, lets just give them the other faction's weapons." instead of saying "Let's give them weapons that fill the same roll but differently." All they need to do is give the NC a twinlinked heavy rail gun. http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120113031_TauBroadside01.jpg
NC have 0.1 second faster TTK... TR and VS have: MUCH larger magazines FAR greater sustain MUCH shorter reloads FAR greater range MUCH more ammo in reserve. and you're the ones complaining?
Wait can you explain the .1 second faster TTK to me? I die far faster to NC MAXs than TR MAXs. It is really not even comparable since with NC MAX there is almost no chance to do anything to counter whereas with TR you usually can at least get off a deci or if they have bad aim a c4. NC MAXs seem like the best of the bunch as long as you dont try to roll AI out in the open (luckily there are bases everywhere and its basically indoor-side).
NC max have lower killing potential and range than VS and TR max (even with slugs). So they need to be very strong close range. Otherwise they would be useless.
What I meant, in short, was making TR & VS max machineguns (at least the high RPM ones) function more like SMGs (faster rate of fire, smaller bullet spread, faster damage drop off, etc.) instead of long-range LMG/AR/etc. because right now most of them are not useful out of close-range (allow aiming could fix that, but when would that happen?).
I actually did read the thing. And that's dumb because all max weapons are potent at close range, even the bursters have some potency in CQC. You just need to play more.
Then why did u say "the NC Max would be even worst since it's one advantage is completely nullified...not different colors" nonsense? "You need to play more" is actually how I felt when you said "that's dumb because all max weapons are potent at close range, even the bursters..." What SOE/DBG has been trying to do lately (MBT/harraser mounted weapon) is to keep the faction flavor/specialty/function while making those weapons perform on a similar level, which is also why I started this thread to suggest a potential solution to the max issue that players of all factions have been complaining about. SMGs are similar to shotguns in terms of utility (close range, accurate hipfire, fast ttk), so it's natural for TR/VS max machineguns to perform like SMGs instead of what they are now.
**** that, I don't want every faction to have same/similar weapons. I want them to be different. If that means NC don't get a long range max weapon then to bad for them, they just supplement it with a strong close range weapon. That's what the game is suppose to be like, but people just complain about how the grass is greener on the other side even when it isn't.
The problem is the devs don't think that way, just look at how striker/magrider has become, and NC do get a long range max weapon: Raven. Ravens are the only weapons I pull besides shotguns on my NC max because there is no better option for medium-range infantry battles, but the problem is that they are also the best anti-vehicle weapon in-game and do pretty well against infantry. Ravens weren't a big issue at launch because not too many players have saved up the investment for dual-ravens, but now they get complained about because everyone and their mother is spamming them like pre-nerf ZOE, while TR/VS has nothing to compete against in their max arsenal. Do you really know "what the game is supposed to be like" for devs? If you truly believe what you said, then you should advocate for Max zooming or changes for the machinegun arms too because most of them received heavier penalties than shotgun because they are used like SMG (hipfire) but don't perform like SMG. Most of the current max machineguns shoots bullets all over the place like shotguns but don't have the same damage output or ttk, and it's very obvious in max vs max situations.
Is that why I always crush NC maxes as TR? NC max is about that burst damage there is not much that can stand up to them in close range. but the moment you get something that can take their punishment (another max) they might as well run and not even try because I will crush them every single time, even with their aegis while they reload. TR and VS have far suppirior sustain damage and they also can reach out to medium and long range. I don't know what your talking about with the TR AI weapons. Only one is designed like an SMG, all the others are very effective at medium range, they just don't insta kill like they do at point blank; because that would be OP. The Mercy you can even reach out to 50M and still reliably hit. The reason NC gets away with insta kill weapons is because those guns become pitiful at 10M and useless at 20. NC put their eggs in the CQC burst basket, while the other two decided to go for more versatile stat lines. Also NC have the Falcon, so already you have 2 of the best AV weapons in the game.
Look, all I'm suggesting is to make all/most TR/VS anti-infantry arms function like SMGs or any close-range carbine/AR, instead of having inaccurate & med/long-range damage drop off. The purpose of this idea is to reach a similar but not equal combat effectiveness for all factions. It can be done in a balanced way, just like SMG doesn't equal shotgun. If you like the slow firing & inaccurate machingun arms now, I can't see how you won't like the faster firing & accurate version whose downside is faster damage drop off compared to before. For the medium/long-range battles you love: Before change/Currently, inaccurately spam medium/long-range bullets at slow pace in the hope of getting some hard hits. After change, accurately spam close-range bullets at fast pace knowing that more bullets will hit, just with less damage per hit.
What are you talking about? They already are accurate at range, and they are potent close up. You're complaining about changing something, but it's already what you want it to change into. And no I wouldn't want them to make them even better, because that would make the TR and VS max completely overpowered.
Only VS's Blueshift and TR's Mercy have the accuracy level of SMG/carbines' hipfire, while the others all have worse accuracy, and there is the issue of RPM. Being "potent" can be said for almost any existing gun, but you don't see all guns getting the same result, do you? I haven't complained yet, but you seem more than eager to complain about a mere suggestion, which is odd. You know SMGs suck at medium/long-range because of damage drop off, right? Then how on earth do u keep thinking they are overpowered? What I suggested includes both buffs (in accuracy& RPM) and nerfs (smaller magazine, faster damage drop) Read my first post, where I mentioned that NC's Scattercannon is a standard shotgun (Mauler/Barrage/Thanatos) copy with a mere 20% reduction in RPM and 1 extra second of reload time, whereas the VS's Quasar is a copy of Corvus with 37% reduction in RPM, and perhaps I should also mention that TR's Heavy Cycler is a copy of T1 cycler with a 47% duction in RPM. (Both T1 cycler and Corvus are med/long-range AR that you aim instead of hipfire with) No only are TR & VS have machinguns that copied the wrong gun, both factions have received heavier penalty in DPM. Sure the clip size is bigger, but the loss in ttk far outweights those extra bullets. If having SMG arms would make TR & VS max "completely overpowered" in close-range like NC max is, then the problem is with maxes themselves, isn't it? Anyway, I'm tired of explaining in details the same thing over and over again. If you have to argue with me, then at least point out the hole in the plan instead of keep saying "overpowered".
First; All the TR max weapons have a longer effective range then an SMG or Carbine. The point of the two tier drop off is so you have some kind of count pay against them but they'll still **** you up at medium and even long ranges. Second; This is a MAX, you have way more health and have bullet resistance (don't know how much they reduced it to, but you still have it.) So even with just charge and melee you can stomp anyone into the ground. Third; and most importantly you have forgotten on thing, the Mercy doesn't shoot at 426 rpm at 125 damage at all ranges. The mercy shoots at 852 at 250 damage at all ranges. What you've forgotten is that you have 2 guns not one. And with the TR max If you roll with a mutilator and a mercy you will NEVER run out of ammo. You'll only reload when you want to reload. Why do you compare MAXs to infantry? They aren't.
I don't know what you are trying to prove, or perhaps you are just trolling, but I will point out your obvious mistake: "the Mercy doesn't shoot at 426 rpm at 125 damage at all ranges. The mercy shoots at 852 at 250 damage..." The actuality is: One mercy does 426rpm at 125 damage, which means two will do either 426rpm at 250 damage, or 852 rpm 125 damage. We compare the max guns to the infantry versions because we are calculating the combat effectiveness, but we can try it your way. For example, a scatmax with two scattercannon will do either 360rpm at 6*130 damage or 180rpm at 12*130 damage. Max guns like Scattercannon, Heavy Cycler, and Quasar are weakened copies of the infantry guns, so it would be easier for most players to understand the difference. I was using the infantry guns as a reference and basis for balance. Once again, I suggest that you check the numbers. Any indoor/confined space would make NC max work~ (inside tech plant & amp station main buildings, most capture point room, etc.)
The Onslaught already has a 0.36s bodyshot TTK at 0-10m and a 0.13s headshot TTK (which is perfectly possible 0-8m with decent aim). Now bear in mind that currently the NC AI MAX weapons only have any advantages at 0-8m range, from 8m+ TR/VS AI MAX weapons are already just plain better. If TR/VS AI MAX weapons are made equal or better to NC AI weapons within 0-8m and are already better 8m+ then where exactly is the balance in that? NC AI MAX weapons would simply become plain inferior at ALL ranges.
If you wanted to make TR/VS closest range MAX AI weapons equal NC AI MAX ones 0-8m it wouldn't really be feasible with a SMG model, because they would still retain too much range over NC AI MAX weapons (the spread, CoF and drop off really hits hard after 8m). You'd just have to give TR/VS a NS MAX shotgun weapon, but then equally the NC would need an NS Mercy/Blueshift equiverlent. Also remember when you're looking at 2x Onslaughts now, they already have high DPS, and high DPS per mag (as, of course, MAX weapons are used as pairs [although not always matched pairs] - you cannot do that with an Infantry SMG), and all NC AI MAX weapons have exceedingly high reload times, especially with their low % firing times and high % reloading times, they are just slightly behind 0-8m in TTK. Grinder (pellets) 1021 (2024) DPS - Infantry 0m TTK (body) 0.00s (head) 0.00s - % firing time 44%- % reloading time 56% Mattocks (slugs) 615 (1230) DPS - Infantry 0m TTK (body) 0.00s (head) 0.00s - % firing time 41% - % reloading time 59% Onslaughts 805 (1610) DPS - Infantry 0m TTK (body) 0.36s (head) 0.13s - % firing time 79% - % reloading time 21% And then if you want long range you have Mercys and Blueshifts, which even Mattocks with slugs don't really come close to matching currently, also NW 3-5 hits NC AI MAX slug TTK harder than VS/TR TTK.
Are you trying to balance MAX vs MAX or MAX vs infantry? Either way I'm not sure I see the point in what you are proposing. TR and VS maxes already vastly outperform the NC AI max at anything beyond spitting distance. I think you are too hung up on the fact that the NC max has a standard shotgun "reduced" by 20% while TR/VS have standard ARs "reduced" by 37% or whatever. You can't balance it that way. Bringing the VS up to only a 20% reduction would increase RoF by ~85rpm. I don't recall the damage numbers offhand, but that would throw TTKs way out of whack. I don't want generic stuff that performs identically across factions. That's boring as hell... Having the AI maxes function differently means they shine in different situations.
