[Suggestion] Add a counter to lock ons, buff external fuel tanks

Everybody I know who uses rocket pods use the NV with it... sure you might not always know which dude is firing but if there are dudes you will see them. With out the NV I agree, very difficult to tell.

You sir failed to read my post and my counter to your suggestion. Instead you insist your way is right and tell everyone else they are wrong.

If you are being shot down by 2-3 missiles you should perhaps think about changing your flight plan. I dont fly much and I rarely get shot down by lock on weapons. And when I do its because I did something stupid. I dont have flares, I dont have rocket pods, I dont have stealth or anything to protect me from lock ons, and they still arent that bad. I dont even use my Grounder missile for my HA because it does so little damage compaired to my ML-7 rocket launcher, and thats a dumb fire weapon that doesnt guide to target. Its what the HA starts with and its the best anti-everything weapon in game. And the funny thing is EVERY FACTION HAS A VERSION OF IT!

Whats to keep me from just "blipping" the afterburner to break lock everytime I see the LOCK ON flash on my HUD? Nothing. I can do that indefinately if I time it right. And it wont affect my farming ground targets.

No? How often do you get people complaining about the overwhelming power of that ESF nosegun they were strafed with?

We use stealth to slow their acquisition and can detect that we've been locked onto, but release flares as a decoy... I'm not really sure these are your average heat seeking missiles, lol.

I very much concur with what has been stated here. ESFs do not stick around long enough for me to go through 3 cycles of lock acquisition, fire, reload, and rinse and repeat. I usually get assists or when luck would have it the finishing shot. The majority of the damage is coming from dedicated AA in the form of a burster or sky guard.

NV is what... 150m now? I forget exactly what they nerfed it to but it's a fair bit shorter than the locking distance. I mean if you're cleaning up guys arming generators with few potential sources for a missile to begin with then sure, NV would probably make it pretty easy. Elsewise if you have people scattered all over with the odd small group here and there, you basically have to luck out and see the trail behind the missile or the one HA (assuming it is only one) who is sitting there staring at you with something over his shoulder.

In other news, it'd suck hard to be a war correspondent in a PS2 battlefield.

Aircraft can survive... It's called 'being with a group' just as Air Jockeys keep telling Infantry to roll with AA.

Thing is... Even mass coordination or mass lemming of Lockons... The trooper carrying it has 5 shots. 5 shots that have to pick a target to deal with. 5 shots that while they are 'infinite' require 1 trooper to provide ammo, otherwise, they aren't moving very far from a sunderer or base to get ammo.

Even with the Annihilator, that requires 4 people to down one ESF, assuming they are coordinated, to take down ONE ESF. Those same '4' people in an ESF, same cert cost, can take down those 4 coordinated people with rocket pods, cause those 4 guys trying to lockon to something won't know which one of the 4 ESFs are loaded with rocketpods or not. So while yes, one person gets shafted with the whole 'dying to the combined force of 3 annihilators, the 4 guys, with no cover if they want the 'infinite ammo' have 3 other ESFs to deal with, with 3 of them with pods, 2 on a BEST case scenario, HE blasting them.

And this is using SPREADSHEET ARGUMENT in this case. In the real practical case, it always turns out that mass air will trump mass ground lockons. Even MORE so when ground vs ground is involved with mass air. Infantry has too many things to focus on because cannon spam and the hit and run spam from ESFs make it difficult to do more than slow down a force. And again... If Infantry has to 'aim up' to defend themselves, it will affect someone just as much as aiming down. Just as Air is suppose to primarily deal with the air threats and keep it secure, ground targeting should be last priority, ESF players tend to focus a bit more on targeting ground and not keeping the air secure because they are bored when nothing else is going on.

Of course, if you want FLAK to be improved in favor of the whole lockon gimping against air, which does not help the tankers as well, but I know the retort will be that tanks can use cover, ignoring the fact tanks suffer the same problem of not seeing infantry and getting hit from 'god knows where', so cover is rendered moot...

But both inf and tanks are less of a obvious targets then esf. A new tanker or assault who knows nothing of the game can still manage as long as he does not plung straight into enemy lines and use common sense to retreat when he is noticing a lot of enemies. In case of enemy air, his teammates can cover for him, as long as there is at lest one skyguard, or a couple of G2A users he should be relatively safe.

With esf it is a different story altogether. The second you get to the front line you will be bombarded with flak. Your missile detector will start beeping constantly. He can turn around, but chances are there are already two missiles tracking him and he will end up very dead very soon.

If realism is soo important, add a extra clause to the external fuel tank description: "The large amount of heat generated by these more powerful tanks cause electromagnetic interferance, jamming tracking devices".
That is most likely wrong, and completely ******** regardless, but I am sure someone smarter then me can find a loophole in reality that will somewhat satisfy the science geeks.

It helps a bit, but requires a massive cert investment, and in the end it is not enough

So one person can kill a esf in 3 seconds? Multiple people can gib it? Is this what you call balance for a unit that has to be in the field of view of everything within a 3 hex radius to perform its role effectively?

It cost 1000 cert (700 SC) to get a decent G2A weapon just the same as the esf needs to invest exactly the same to get a decent A2G weapon. This is sadly a effect of the Pay2Win model, where the one with the biggest wallet wins.
A "baby esf" will actually be at a disadvantage against a "baby tank". As long as you do not let them get rear hit, the basilisk win hands down against the default nose gun.

Wow more flyboy tears to bring back their riskless farming sessions.

And how many people in an ESF complain about a tank blowing up their ESF? Or a Lightning? Or a Sunderer? Or that lone infantry with nothing but his starter gun? Or that HA with his Dumbfire rocket? I mean, I have blown up some ESF people in my MBT, in a Lightning with NO Skyguard gun. I have yet to down an ESF with my guns as an infantry person or with a dumbfire rocket that wasn't on the ground with no pilot in it or that wasn't mostly damaged to begin with nor with the single burster on a MAX.

Yet every turn I have heard Pilots make excuse after excuse how infantry should 'get AA' and use it against air if air is tearing them up... Pilots telling ground pounders it is THEIR fault for failing to put up a defense against air or not having AA, even though those who are using AA note that it sometimes is a joke against some air assets. That air jockeys even stated the proper counter to air is... AIR.

I also noted that you deftly evaded the point I put forth as well. The protection of an Baby ESF pilot, who has nothing but the basics on his ESF... Should be coddled and protected from people using a 1000 cert weapon. So... Why don't we coddle the Lightning user against air and infantry who uses a 1000 cert weapon that is a threat to air that is also a threat to that lightning user. And if you say "That lightning has cover! Air doesn't" Uhm... Lightning has to get a rough idea of where that threat is coming from to HIT cover in some places just as much as air does. Infantry at range with a lockon weapon won't render either. Tanks don't get to 'outrun' or 'afterburn' by default a missile. They also get hit by dumbfire weapons with no trail to see beyond that it came from 'that direction'. Again, from rendering issues. The lightning is only slightly lower than an ESF in resource cost and is SLOWER and gimped by terrain, yet will suffer the SAME PROBLEMS as an ESF with lockon based weapons from infantry and get no love in the process.

Infantry, in and of itself, from the very start... HAVE NOTHING TO DEFEND AGAINST AIR save a MAX (Which is a timer resource as well as half the cost of an ESF). The only other options is a Turret (which is subjective to the location) or jumping into ESF, but then, jumping into an ESF, they aren't infantry anymore, they are a pilot. Those are the only options for infantry before spending 1000 certs or 700 SC to have something that does decent damage, otherwise, firing a rifle in the air to nibble on your armor == spit in hell.

Here's the thing. From experience on BOTH ends - I try to lock onto an ESF. He pops a flare - Can't lock onto anything. I lock on to an ESF, fire the missile, Flare popped - Missile goes off DF.

In a tank with IR/Smoke, same setup, I see lockon, pop smoke... No more lockon. Another time, smoke ready, I see lockon until it tones, pop smoke, but forgetting to move, the missile hits.

Point being is that the argument about the flares and how they work in this game is not exactly what he thinks it is. In the cases I have seen, the flares/smoke in this game provides a temporary blinding of Lockons in general. Not just 'one' lockon user, but multiple lockon users. Two, even with a lockon established, flares/smoke still work, you just have to make sure you don't linger, and it affects more than one lockon at that time.

That's funny. I survive by avoiding groups. People keep telling us how we "have to go with the group" and "work together" now that flak and AA have been buffed. Ironically, the buffs have instead locked us out of group play, in large battles we're completely locked down by massive AA and instead we have to go lone-wolfing looking for easy prey elsewhere because there is nothing we can actually contribute with in those battles.

Lock-ons are fine in small-scale battles when there are few people firing them. I'ts when you stack them that they become ridiculous. Mind you, I am not talking about 5 heavies going up against a single esf. I am talking about 5 heavies going up against any amount of esf and still winning because of low respawn rate easy to use launchers.

Difference being, those 4 HA will be right back in 15 seconds. If you manage to take down even one esf, it will be gone for at lest a couple of minutes (even if it's of cool down they will still have to fly all the way back from warp-gate). They don't even need a engineer, they can just die for ammo refill. It's not like those 15 seconds are a major setback. Also, my suggestion completely excludes rocketpodders, so I'm not really sure how that is part of your argument.

Once again, the strong points of the heavies is not their amazing G2A capabilities, but the fact that they can keep respawning. For every single esf you shoot down you will have weakened the enemy forces a bit, they will accomplish nothing unless they take out your spawn sunderer.
And cannon spam? What are your friendly armor doing if your infantry is getting shelled? If you are getting overwhelmed by enemy air + ground, chances are there are simply too many enemies for you to handle, and there was nothing you could have done, air or no air.

Why are you bringing tanks into this? For the record, I think lock-ons vs tanks are just as stupid (especially when out of render distance) but that is off-topic and completely unrelated.

Learn to use the counters there already are.

Use flares.

Use cover.

Fly low skimming the tree-tops to stop people getting a lock.


Air is finally not the be-all and end-all. That's a good thing (except for people who actually want to be playing a flight sim).

ESF's have the innate ability to disengage and fly away or fly low behind cover to avoid lock on missile fire. Infantry does not have any way to get away from an ESF attacking them except to find a building to hide in, and even then sometimes the rocket spam will still get you.

Also, stop stating flares should be standard gear for ESF's. I had to spend certs/SC for my lockon rocket launcher, so you pilots should have to spend something on your counter as well.

tl;dr of this thread- Pilots cant farm infantry unmolested anymore, coordinated groups use lockon rockets effectively, and now the formerly untouchable pilots cry a small oceans worth of tears.

So we should nerf the lock on so that you can hover and spam 50 rocket pods and kill 200 infantry?
Single infantry with G2A can do jack sh*t. I usually work with 5-6 AA max and 2-3 HA with G2A to create an effective area of denial.
Stop whining. You are sitting in an aircraft that can out run most G2A rockets. If you get greedy and take more risk, you will get shot down.

There has to be a risk reward balance. What you are demand is all reward and no risk. Play COD, this game is not for you

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/lock-on-alternatives.87115/

This is what I came up with. I prefer this from an infantry perspective. And thing it woudl stop the crying.

Coordinated? As in, every HA within 2 hexes switch and fire their secondary

Why are you talking about rocket spam? Nowhere in my original suggestion did I cater to the rocket spammers, they would be completely unaffected by these changes.

Stop talking about rocketpods. Read my op again.

This quote much like your ENTIRE original post reeks with melodramatic nonsense. You know full well that you wont be locked on from one HA guy 2 hexes away, but you state this fallacy anyways just to be dramatic. If you idea was a sound and logical one and wasn't so obviously biased as a whine against the only infantry counter to air, then it wouldn't need such dramatics to make a point clear.

Also, how fast could you fly over two hexes of the game, and how long would it take an infantryman to walk the same distance. Ergo, you can get away if you fly as well as you claim just off speed and juking low through obstacles, flares not even needed. I see skilled ESF pilots escape lockon barrages every night with 5+ rocket on them?

It also takes alot more effort to coordinate 10 guys to track and fire at the same target, then it does for you to hover and spam lolpods at masses of infantry, which is what every single pilot seems to do no matter what they claim.

Stop mentioning rocketpods. They have nothing to do with my suggestion

Wait wait wait... Infantry and tanks are less obvious targets than ESFs? Uhm... NO. Infantry gets shot up by ESFs with pods when ESFs have no fear of AA. Baby infantry guys - NO AA. Tankers rolling out with a stock Lightning or MBT... Unless there is AA or air support, get ROLLED by ESFs hitting their rear or top by ESF podders. Where is their 'coddling' to protect them from Air. And tankers don't get the convenient protection from Lockon users or those pesky LA/Engineers at the beginning either. Tanks are pretty damn Obvious to infantry and AIR as well.

You want their teammates to cover him. Guess what, same with air. Air needs to work as a TEAM with other air and... *gasp* ground units too.

On my first day in this game as infantry, I got thrown into a middle of a fight instead of what I was expecting in Planetside 1, which was to spawn in a location. Drop podded right into enemy location and basically ***** before I had an idea of what was going on. Checking out the various vehicles, same thing, getting torn up by air as well as infantry and that was before lockons.

I spent more time killing myself trying to fly the ESF because the control system was not as initially intuitive until I made control changes that made much more sense and not hitting the leave vehicle button cause I was so used to 'vert thrust' on 'e' than 'space', but even then... I had ENOUGH sense when flying to not get my butt toasted by Flak or G2A lockons when they were all sorts of messed up back then than now. I have yet to die to mass G2A fire because so far, most of my issues . And this is coming from a person who has not much into an ESF but Level 1 flares and vehicle stealth.

To be honest,, everyone is thrown into the deepend, regardless... Unless you go beyond just ESF, and balance the argument for ALL sides concerned, it will not be 'balanced'.

It is not a matter of realism, it is a matter of balance. You are arguing that, from the get go... To defeat players who are using a weapon designed for a specific task, ESFs should be able to defeat it, at no cost. Something that Tanks don't get... And general infantry don't get, in seriousness, a proper beginning counter to Air using Pods. And while the argument is going to be 'you have invisibility'... It means nothing when they are the new guy, with nothing and getting pwned by air who isn't being held off by others. Again, not a reasonable balance argument, you have to give as much as you take.

Massive? MASSIVE? Compared to 1000 Certs (700 SC) to get the one weapon on an infantry or tank to actually fire back at Air... the 100 Cert to reduce only a FRACTION of the incoming damage an ESF Pod spammer uses on infantry, or in putting armor protection on all but the WEAKEST part of the tank? Sorry, poor reason to support your argument.

So one person can kill multiple people in 3 seconds as well in an ESF with a 1000 cert (700 SC) weapon... Again, poor reason to support your argument. Multiple ESFs can also instagib infantry and tanks. Again... You bring NOTHING to the table to the argument that can be also reversely pointed out RIGHT BACK to you and ignoring EXACTLY what other air jockeys have told AA users that AA users should be WORKING TOGETHER to destroy their ESF or Liberator back when AA was crap and still tell us even with the boost in AA, that more than one person should be required to down an ESF or Liberator because 'your cost' is less than theirs. You are also ignoring the fact that Air can also deny ground from being able to push forward as well in large groups. You don't seem to have a problem with that, and will argue it should be covered by other people, but again, how should a New pilot be treated any differently from a new infantry person or a new tanker facing an ESFer who is more experienced who is also doing the EXACT SAME THING you are complaining about?

No... a Baby ESFer is about at the same level as a Baby tank. ESFs may not have cover, but they can come in at angles and by passing ground defenses and attack the rear of a vehicle, attacking not only its blind spots, but its weak point. You air jockeys constantly ignore this fact or expect the rest of us to be too stupid to realize that your benefits counter the weaknesses you seem to tout like you don't get squat.

You want to argue 'Baby vs Baby'. A baby ESF will not kill a MBT Tank with its gun head to head. A baby Lightning is not going to kill a Baby ESF head to head with its gun. An baby infantry person will not kill a baby ESF with what weapons it has.

But that WASN'T YOUR ARGUMENT... YOUR ARGUMENT IS BABY AIR VS INFANTRY USING THE 1000 CERT (700 SC) WEAPON...

Don't twist the argument from 'Baby versus Person with wallet/cert higher' to 'Baby versus Baby' to JUSTIFY your argument. Cause that is what you are doing. My argument pointed out that you left it one sided and you twisted your justification that it baby ESF won't hurt baby Tank... Not ESF outfitted with weapon that takes out tank or infantry spending the same amount of cert/money doing the same to infantry or tanks from the initial get go as well.

Again, that is NOT balance, that's just a one side, "I want this and to hell with the rest."

IMO, the strength off the lock-on weaponry is not that it does too much (or even good) damage (they don't).

It's not that they're impossible to dodge (they're not - though it is VERY difficult).

It's that you can fire them basically non-stop, and they're too reliable/strong/useful compared to other AA options.

Sure I can dodge 1-2 A2A missiles in a dogfight...but what about the rest? Sure 1/4-1/3 hp from a missile is ok - but from how many missiles?

If you have 3-4 HAs or ESFs firing X2A lock-on missiles, and you don't have flares - you probably will be dead before you even properly understand where your enemy is. You also get no indication of how MANY missiles are locking you. Sure it could be 1 and you will live - or it could be 10 and you're toast...

Simply put though, this isn't the whole issue, infantry have to deal with snipers, tanks have to deal with libbies, and ESFs have to deal with G2A missiles and A2A pods...

The problem is it invalidates any other option.

If you're A2A - get A2A missiles, if you're A2G - get A2G missiles - who gets afterburners? Noobs who haven't certed a REAL secondary yet. That's who. Pay2Win baaby!

Who slots anything other than flares for utility? NOOBS! That's who! Dummies. Rofl. Noobtrap options FTW.

you have a counter, its called flares.