Discussion in 'Light Assault' started by CanadianAttackBeaver, Apr 25, 2013.
I'd say it could use 25 rounds....
I use it anyway when I play NC, but the dmg per mag IS rather low
Responding to a three months old post =\
At that time everyone called ACX, T5 AMC and Pulsar C sniper carbines. It's just a word.
I agree the AC-X11 should get an extra 5 rounds added to its mag.
By the same token I think all VS/NC 143-damage carbines should get 5 rounds added to their mags as well.
AC-X11 damage per mag, 25 rounds - 5000
143-damage carbine damage per mag, 35 rounds - 5005
VS have the quickest reload to compensate for their low mag size, and the only NC 143 dmg carbine is GD-7F, which has insane DPS, rivaled only by Serpent.
Why homogenize all factions? If all guns should have the same damage per magazine, they might as well all have same stats.
Ah, I see. I didn't noticed that that you realized your error.
Of course we assume all shots hit and we assume the first shot is instant...that is essentially pure TTK
Now, I can totally respect the idea of trying to apply a real world factor. Probably the best way is to factor in the accuracy of a player. 50% to 70% is probably a realistic average for a decent to good player just apply that to the TTK and define it as such. example: The TTK of a player with an AC-X11 with 70% accuracy at Y meters = X
To be fair, what your are doing is a player with 83.33% accuracy and that is fine if you think that is a good average to use. He shoots 6 times and gets five 5 hits (one shot other that the final is a miss) within 10 meters not counting travel time. Personally, I don't think a one shot variance is enough with a dodging target.
all that said...25 rounds for the AC-X11? sure I'm down with that
The VS fast reload trait is a myth as of a few GU's ago. Amongst carbines, VS and NC are pretty close, with the TR trailing behind. In the top 10 fastest (not including NS weapons):
The VS/NC/TR distribution goes 5/4/1 for short, and 6/4/0 for long.
The top 8 of the short and 5 of the long reloads are within .2s of each other
The VS and NC ones are pretty interspersed, with NC holding the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th fastest for short, and 1st, 4th, and 7th, and 8th fastest for long.
The situation is very similar for ARs, and LMG reload speeds are more evenly distributed amongst all 3 factions.
And it's not about homogenization. It's an attempt to fix an issue brought about by cert creep and the prevalence of Nano and Resist Shield.
At point blank range using a 143-damage weapon it currently takes 17 shots to kill an HA with Nano+Resist, so you simply don't have enough rounds in the mag to kill more than one HA using that loadout without having to reload. And since that is a very common loadout in the most commonly-used class (HA), a 30-round mag is a big disadvantage at close range (<30m, which includes almost anywhere indoors and almost all base objectives).
Having quick reloads doesn't make up for it either, since reloading anywhere at close range will get you killed unless the area is clear. And since you rarely run into just one person at a time if you're anywhere near even a medium-sized battle, having to reload after every kill is just too big of a disadvantage. Neither the TR nor NC carbines (except the GD-7F, and possibly the AC-X11) have this issue.
Ideally they should have made TR mags 50, VS/NC 143-damage mags 40, and 167-damage mags 35 on all carbines and ARs from the start. That would let the TR retain their mag-size advantage while making the VS/NC 143 and 167-damage weapons more balanced.
You bring a good point, I do agree that mag size / reload time balance may be not in the VS's favor.
But comparing mag sizes against the most enduring loadout of the most enduring class is moot. HA supposed to be tough. It would be weird if LA could run in and dispatch resist shield heavies left and right. As LA, it's our job to catch them off-guard and deal a lot of damage when their shield is down, or weaken them first with explosives/utilities. Or just leave them be, and hunt easier targets.
Yes, but if NC/TR LAs have this capability, shouldn't it also be available to the VS? Remember this also applies to Engies, and if I'm supporting my squad on the front lines and/or playing pocket Engie for an AI MAX I'm going to need that extra firepower on occasion and I won't have a Jetpack/Overshield/Healing Aura/Cloak to fall back on to help me escape.
And Nano+Resist may be the most enduring loadout, but it's also probably the most common, at least amongst mid/high skilled players when they go HA (which I believe is the most-use class).
I dunno, this is a pet peeve of mine and is one of the main reasons I stopped using any VS carbine but the Pulsar C. I've been killed by that 143/30 mag running out at the worst possible moment way too many times. Now I pretty much use the Pandora or Sirius for CQC and the Pulsar C for everything else.
You make an interesting point, one I hadn't considered as I don't use 143 damage, 30 round guns; the only ones available to the NC are the GD-7F and NS-11C. The Blitz SMG is a 125 damage, 50 round gun.
Maybe I'll run an analysis of all the factions carbines and use a nanoweave + resist shield heavy as the measuring stick. Just for clarity, what effective health are you assuming this combo has, Erendil?
I used the base 1000 health + 250 for Nano 5 and just did a straight calculation as the shots came in. I represented the effect of Resist Shield by reducing the damage of each shot by 45%.
1250 / (143 * .55) = 15.89, or 16 shots for the kill (not 17 as my previous post states, sorry for the typo).
So for 167/30 weapons, it'd be 1250 / (167 * .55) = 13.6, or 14 shots
For the AC-X11 it'd be 1250 / (200 * .55) = 11.4, or 12 shots. Bump the mag size to 25 and you'd get 2 kills per mag.
Interesting side note: if you use the originally stated benefit in-game for Nano 5 (125 extra health) it only takes 15 shots with a 143/30 weapon. Which is exactly 2 kills per mag.
I know the whole "kills per mag" is a rather theoretical comparison, but I feel that balancing weapons based on such thresholds is a good way of ecapsulating their capabilities. Obviously it's not even close to the whole picture, but it allows for more quantitative comparisons and it provides a framework around which other qualitative comparisons can be made which might otherwise be harder to pin down. It's why I place a lot of value TTK and STK as well..
This carefully constructed card house falls apart as soon as damage drop off starts, and the weapons like ACX almost never do their maximum damage.
Naturally you are correct.. Read the last paragraph of my last post again. Framework.
It's not difficult to show shots to kill, time to kill, kills per magazine etc. at different ranges to show how the damage drop off affects these stats, which is what I plan to do.
ACX-11 is a garbage gun and 25 rounds still won't won't change that, atrocious bullet velocity for a supposedly long range carbine combined with the slowest rof and equally bad hipfire makes it like an automatic baddie rifle. Should keep the 20 round mag but increase velocity by at least 70 or more and lower damage falloff or extend the 200 damage to 15m or something. Also giving any gun over 143 damage .75 ads is a bad idea imo if anything the em1 should get this bonus and the msw-r for tr.
What you've said is part of the problem of this gun. On paper, due to it's attachements & damage it appears to be a long range carbine; the truth is, the AC-X11 is not a long range carbine at all. The attachements help overcome the balancing aspects of this weapon, but it only shines in the mid range; 20-70 metres. Past that range, the recoil, bullet velocity, rate of fire and small magazine stack to make the gun unwieldy. I really noticed this when I started using the Mercenary (to get Auraxium) and Razor; I could burst and drop targets much more easily even with the lower damage on these guns.
Here let me save you a few brain cells....
I'm guessing you're not familiar with Axiom's excellent Weapon Analysis Tool located here: http://ps2model-axiom.rhcloud.com/#dmg/la/1/7170/7173/7172
It'll make graphs on-the-fly for damage per shot, per mag, or per second, as well as TTK values, for any infantry weapon at any range and with any accuracy % you choose. You can add as many different weapons as you'd like to the graph for direct comparisons. It can even take into account different Nanoweave levels of the target too if you want.
I was not aware of that site; thank you. It provides a nice way of comparing results quickly.
What NC carbines really need is more damage. Right now the damage is carefully selected to provide exactly enough to kill. unfortunately the guns are balanced for the "perfect accuracy on a 1000 health target at 0m" scenario, in which guns like the ACX-11 compete with the LC3 Jaguar, with an even TTK in the test tube scenario.
The problem is, with the slowest refire time of all factions, they are the most disadvantaged by range, regen, nanoweave, and shields.
try that outside of 10m (lets say 16m so the jag takes a hit too even with SPA) on a person with max nanoweave glowing from either a nearby medic or regen pen
That 5 stk (7 for jaguar) became 9 (11 for jaguar)
still the same 2 shots apart, but with the jaguar firing 50% faster.
now the ACX-11 kills in .96 seconds against still targets, while the jaguar does it in .8
I can start going into moving targets and missing, but the math comes out really long and complex for posting here. suffice to say that there is no way to create a scenario in which you can make the ACX-11 has an advantage.
ACX should do 215 damage, same STK on normal targets, but enhanced distance before you drop below 200 and effects against nanoweave are better (saves you 1 STK until you drop to 208 or less)
Interesting idea, but why are you comparing the ACX-11 to a short range TR carbine? They're designed for 2 different combat situations. Weapons aren't just balanced around their TTK at 0m. Accuracy/effective range is also taken into account.
Try comparing it to the T5 AMC. Or put the Jag up against the GD-7F.
Or if you insist on measuring the AC-X11 against the Jag, try it at 100m as well where you can still land 100% of your shots with the AC-X11 but the Jag's rounds go everywhere but on target. Or even at 50m where the Jag will still start missing shots due to the bloom and horizontal recoil but the AC-X11 will retain 100% accuracy even during sustained fire.
But even still, in your very specific example (shooting someone with Nano5 at >16m who is also actively being healed by a Medic or a Regen Kit) the difference is only .16 secs in favor of the carbine that's actually designed for short range. Given that the other carbine isn't designed for close range and has twice the effective range of the first I don't see an issue here.
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