[Suggestion] AC-X11 Needs a 25 round magazine

Discussion in 'Light Assault' started by CanadianAttackBeaver, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. CanadianAttackBeaver

    Seeing as they are reviewing weapons, I thought I'd put this up again. I posted this under Suggestions and in the Engineer section, but I'd be curious to see how many NC Light Assaults use the NC-X11.

    I analyzed the NC Carbines here:
    http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...lip-size-too-small.101936/page-2#post-1436427

    I'll share the analysis I did before but include the new (ish) NS-11C in the discussion and bring some info from the SMG and AR analysis into the discussion as well. I also corrected an error in my spreadsheet that gave some wrong info regarding kills per magazine.


    CURRENT STATE

    Shots to kill:
    The AC-X11 is the only carbine that can kill a target with 5 shots. However, to do this, all shots have to hit for 200 damage and the target cannot have any form of damage mitigation. Under these same ideal circumstances, the Mercenary, Gauss Burst, Gauss S and Razor can kill in 6 shots, and the GD-7F and NS-11C in 7 shots.

    If even a single bullet does not hit at maximum damage, or the target possesses some form of damage mitigation, shots to kill increases by 1 across the board; 6, 7 and 8 (respectively).

    I found the shots to kill curve interesting. The AC-X11 can kill in 6 shots if 4 or 3 shots land at maximum damage; any fewer and the AC-X11 requires 7 shots to kill. The Mercenary, Gauss Burst, Gauss S and Razor can kill in 7 shots if 5, 4 or 3 shots land at maximum damage; otherwise these guns require 8 shots to kill. The GD-7F and NS-11C can kill in 8 shots if 6, 5, 4, or 3 shots land at maximum damage; otherwise the GD-7F and NS-11C require 9 shots to kill.

    Kills per magazine:
    Assuming you were able to land all shots at maximum damage and the target possessed no damage mitigation, the AC-X11 and GD-7F are both capable of 4 kills per magazine; the Mercenary, Gauss Burst, Gauss S, Razor and NS-11C are all capable of 5 kills per magazine.

    This is obviously an ideal situation and would rarely, if ever, occur. The AC-X11 is capable of 3 kills per magazine as long as 4 or 3 bullets hit for maximum damage and in a situation where 2 or fewer shots do maximum damage, the AC-X11 is capable of 2 kills per magazine. This is the fewest of any of the carbines.

    The Mercenary, Gauss Burst, Gauss S and Razor are capable of 4 kills per magazine as long as 3 bullets do maximum damage; when 2 or less bullets hit for maximum damage, these carbines are capable of 3 kills per magazine.

    The GD-7F is capable of 3 kills per magazine in all situations outside of the ideal situation.

    The NS-11C is capable of 4 kills per magazine as long as 3 bullets hits for maximum damage. If 2 or fewer bullets land for maximum damage the NS-11C is capable of 3 kills per magazine.

    Analysis:
    The AC-X11 "advantage" of killing a target in 5 shots only exists under ideal conditions, and the 20 round magazine handicaps the gun in the majority of situations. Under ideal conditions, the AC-X11 is capable of killing 4 targets with a full magazine, which is the same amount kills most of the other carbines can accomplish under the majority of conditions. In situations where the AC-X11 is being used at range, which it should excel at, it has the fewest kills per magazine possible.

    Changing the magazine size to 25:

    This puts the kills per magazine of the AC-X11 identical to the Mercenary, Gauss Burst, Gauss S, Razor and NS-11C in situations where at least 2 shots lands at maximum damage.

    Changing the min damage of the AC-X11 damage to 167 has a couple affects (Reaper DMR Stats):

    1) Obviously, the max damage isn't changing with this suggestion, so the AC-X11 can still drop a target in 5 shots under ideal conditions. What does change is the fact the AC-X11 can drop a target with 6 shots even if no shots hit at max damage.
    2) The AC-X11 can still only drop 4 targets per magazine under ideal conditions, but can drop 3 targets under all other conditions. Changing the minimum damage to 167 increases the kills per magazine from 2 to 3 when no max damage shots land on the targets.

    Changing the reload time of the AC-X11 to 1.8s/3.03s (Reaper DMR stats):

    This actually changes very little in terms of how the AC-X11 performs relative to the other carbines. It makes the AC-X11 the fastest gun to cycle 2 magazines assuming short reload times, and the second fastest assuming long reload times. Currently, the AC-X11 is the second fastest assuming short / long reload times.

    I don't like using DPS as a comparison metric (as it is so dependent on rate of fire) but decreasing the reload time increases the AC-X11 max and min DPS over 2 clips (looking at short & long reload times) to a level competitive with the other carbines. The AC-X11 is still the worst, but by a smaller margin.

    Final Thoughts:
    I would prefer (and this is solely my opinion based on how I enjoy playing) to see a 25 round magazine and a reduced reload time implemented. I can deal with the lower minimum damage (and I think it fits, given the design of carbine rifles). If I had to choose one single aspect to be looked at, it would be the magazine size, as I feel the AC-X11 is unfairly handicapped by the 20 round magazine in terms of its killing potential. Despite the higher damage of the rounds, the slow velocity, high recoil & long reload times compounds the effects of each of these balancing features resulting in a gun that has excellent potential, but is unfairly handicapped.

    The Reaper DMR assault rifle provides the closest analogy to the AC-X11 carbine. The Reaper is a 200 maximum damage gun, similar to the AC-X11. However, the Reaper possesses faster reload times (1.8/3.03 seconds vs 2.3/3.05 seconds) and less damage drop off (200 to 167 vs 200 to 143). Both guns possess 20 round magazines.

    However, the Reaper is capable of 4 kills per magazine under ideal situations, and 3 kills per magazine under all other situations. This is due to the higher minimum damage. I am not advocating increasing the minimum damage of the AC-X11 because all of the carbines have similar damage drop off between their max/min damage in comparison to their assault rifle equivalents.

    This is purely my opinion, but a slow firing, high damage gun that can equip a compensator, advanced foregrip and high velocity ammo is suited to mid to long range engagements. However, due to the magazine size and damage drop off, at long range the AC-X11 has the lowest killing potential of all the carbines. This seems counter-intuitive to me.

    The only other weapon capable of 2 kills per magazine is the Cyclone; a sub-machine gun that is designed for close-quarter-combat that is clearly not suited to long-range fights.

    Anyhoo, just my 2 cents. If you actually graph out the kills per magazine of the carbines and assault rifles, the assault rifles are balanced according to what the guns offer in terms of trade-offs. The carbines are balanced as well, with the exception of the AC-X11, whose performance at range sticks out like a sore thumb. The AC-X11, due to its minimum damage and magazine size, is effectively balanced to have similar performance at range as a SMG. I sincerely doubt this was the intention of this gun, given the rate of fire, recoil, damage, and available add-ons to the weapon.

    I built a spreadsheet to provide this analysis; if VS or TR players are curious if their weapons have any similar oddities, I can take a look.
    • Up x 16
  2. Skin

    Can my carbine that hits like it has ****** strength have more bullets plz! yeah.....sure.
  3. CanadianAttackBeaver

    Too stupid to actually counter with a valid criticism based on logic or math? I guess so, hey Skin?
    • Up x 2
  4. Batisat

    While I would agree that the ACX11 would be better with a 20 round mag, it would beat out the Reaper DMR even at it's ideal range. Granted it is a carbine and should not be as damaging as a AR at those ranges
  5. Wolfwood82

    So your entire post is based on kills per magazine based on X number of rounds that hit for full damage... If any one round hits for full damage, they are ALL going to hit for full damage, so I have no clue why you're making this kind of argument.

    Secondly, full damage cuts off at 10m. This weapon was never designed as a short range weapon. It does ok at this range, but it lacks some of the major features short range weapons have (like larger clip sizes and more DPM/DPS).

    Finally, this is a sniper carbine, not a long range carbine. It's meant to target stationary targets (probably better suited to counter sniping then general long range engagements). You're better off setting it to single fire and picking on snipers and those HA's that are too cowardly to press forward. Use it as you would a slug loaded shotgun, except with far better range.

    The AC-X11's big advantage, is that it does more damage then every other carbine at any range, no exceptions. Instead of complaining about it's small clip size (which is there specifically to prevent it's abuse as a CQC weapon), use it for the roles it was intended to be used for.
    • Up x 1
  6. Batisat

    I'm presuming you have used this gun but a sniper carbine? The bullet velocity is quite bad and yet you call it a sniper carbine,143 damage still takes awhile to kill (Min damage) , and even if the target gets hit, your next few bullets take even longer to hit then a sniper's Rams. The target can just run off, regen his/her shields, hit you with 1 bullet before the Acx11's bullet even hit. And FYI, the ACX11's bloom per shot is the highest so even if you spam all of the bullets, chances are other guns is gonna outperform it in terms of hitrate
    • Up x 2
  7. Ghoest

    The AC-X11 is a flawed gun.

    If its a long range gun - why is the velocity so low(lowest of all NC carbines)?
    It has smallish clip - and the longest reload time.
    It has the worst hip COF but it only has .5 ADS speed.


    It doesnt need to be great in every way - but it should be better in some aspect.
    I would suggest buffing the base velocity by 100m/s. That would make it moderately better ranged gun with out making it any better up close.

    And ignore the TR players who make up lies any time someone points out that a non-TR weapon is under performing.
    I have ~500 kill with the AC-X11. nothing amazing but enough to realize that its flawed.
    • Up x 2
  8. CanadianAttackBeaver

    It's not an argument; it shows the killing potential of the weapon as it transitions from max to minimum damage. This also gives a model of how the gun functions under ideal to worst case situations, as well as what players will expect given there is damage mitigation in the game through shields and armor. Modeling like this also provides a metric that allows for comparison between guns that isn't dependent on DPS, which is dependent on rate of fire. I would think this would be obvious, but I guess not.

    I don't even know how to reply to this. Did you even read my post?

    The AC-X11 is a weapon that is clearly designed for mid to long rang fights yet has the lowest killing potential of any of the carbines at range. What sense does that make? The AC-X11 has the biggest damage drop off of any of the carbines at range, the slowest bullet velocity, the smallest magazine and the slowest reload times.

    The 200 damage is only good within a close range that the AC-X11 performs very poorly at due to the rate of fire and high recoil. At mid to long ranges, the slow bullet velocity, high recoil and small magazine handicap the gun, so where exactly is the strength of this weapon?

    You state the AC-X11 is a
    .... which is ridiculous. With the slowest bullet velocity and highest recoil you're going to try and use this as a sniping weapon? As for the highest damage at range, 143 bullet damage versus 125 bullet damage is not a meaningful difference; it's a difference of 1 bullet to kill a target.
  9. CanadianAttackBeaver

    Because of the damage drop off and reload times of the AC-X11, upping the magazine size would barely make them even and wouldn't even come close to making the AC-X11 better than the Reaper.
  10. Wolfwood82

    1. It is an argument. A well laid out one, but still something that is entirely debatable. The only damage mitigation for small arms fire against infantry is the HA resist shield and MAX ballistic armor, both of which directly extend survival times a lot more then things like Nano-weave armor. Otherwise statements such as "if at least 2 shots land for full damage" are useless fluff to add to a post to pad it's contents. What I am saying is that statement suggests that you are doing your math wrong somewhere. It's a statement you would find in a discussion regarding shotguns, where the damage you deal is not always a constant number based on various factors such as range and mitigation.
    2. I don't have to, this argument has been brought up before and didn't hold much water then either. If you note the other long range carbines (Pulsar C, T5 AMC, Razor GD-23) you will note that they all have far less DPS other carbines within their own empires and across the board. And your information is wrong. The AC-X11 actually has the best damage and lowest drop off at range, it also has the farthest range and bullet velocity is only slightly slower then the Pulsar C (it's only direct competitor as a sniper carbine). As for magazine and reload times, these are things you don't need in a long range carbine. You need these things for CQC and short-medium range carbines.
    3. You should probably check out the stats of actual sniper rifles before discrediting my statement. Their bullet velocities are in the low 500's as well. And the recoil is a factor that compensates for the automatic fire the weapon has. The sniper rifles have half the RoF or less to compensate for their extreme damage. These are aspects of weapons designed to hit stationary targets at long range, not engage in fire fights. If you want a weapon designed more for fire fights at medium-long range, use the Razor GD-23 as that is what it is designed for.
    Again the reason for the small clip on the AC-X11 is because of it's extreme damage compared to other carbines. That small clip is pretty much the only thing preventing it from being abused as a CQC carbine. Even adding 5 rounds to it would put it on an even footing with every other CQC carbine while at the same time making it superior to them in the range department.
  11. CanadianAttackBeaver

    Sniper rifles have bullet speeds ranging from 500 to 650.

    Your entire premise that the AC-X11 is a "sniper carbine" is ridiculous. There is no such thing and this gun, given it's low bullet speed (480), high recoil, slow reload and small magazine size, is incapable of the damage output of the other carbines. That, my friend, is a fact. All of the other carbines are capable of putting more damage downrange than the AC-X11 in the same amount of time

    You stated "The AC-X11 actually has the best damage and lowest drop off at range" . Sorry, but this is patently false. The AC-X11 is the ONLY carbine whose damage drops off 30% from maximum to minimum so it, in fact, has the HIGHEST drop off at range. All of the other carbines' damage drops off from 25% (Mercenary, Gauss Burst, Gauss S, Razor) to 22% (GD-7F and NS-11C).

    A 25 round clip would not allow the AC-X11 to be abused as a CQC carbine. The slow rate of fire and recoil are still balancing features that would prevent this. The AC-X11 is clearly not superior to any of the carbines at range and if this is meant to be the area the AC-X11 excels at then it is clearly failing. The other carbines have greater magazine capacity, lower recoil, faster reload times and faster bullet speed. Hitting for 143 damage at 85 metres as opposed to 125 damage at 75 metres is not a material difference. It means the AC-X11 can drop a target with 7 shots instead of 8 at 85 metres. Given the rates of fire, bullet speed and magazine capacity the other carbines have they are much more likely to land those 8 shots before the AC-X11 lands 7. Clearly, the AC-X11 is not superior at range.

    I'd be happy to compare the AC-X11 based on DPS, damage per clip, cycle time, shots to kill, kills per magazine or any other metric you want. I'd actually like to see your math because so far all you offered is unsubstantiated opinion and a ridiculous premise that the AC-X11 is a "sniper carbine". Does that infer the Reaper is a "sniper assault rifle"? That is clearly false given the bullet speed, reload times and damage drop off of the Reaper. The Reaper is actually middle of the pack in terms of damage drop off at 17%, with the lowest being 13% and the highest 22%. The Reaper is also capable of cycling through 2 clips faster than any other AR because of fast reload times.

    I'm curious, Wolfwood, do you actually play NC and use the AC-X11? I did a player search and the only Wolfwood NC player I could find has 5 kills with this weapon. The fact you claim this is a "sniper carbine" is pretty clear to me that you have no experience with it beyond looking at the stats.
    • Up x 2
  12. ColdCheezePizza

    AC-X11 is pretty overrated, it's 250 certs for a reason, any VS/TR complaining about have obviously never used it extensively out on the battlefield. I don't see why it cant have 30 rounds like the other carbine, the recoil, reload, bullet speed and rof would still suck the most out of all the other carbines. But for some reason they decided it was ok to give the hardest hitting LMG, Gauss Saw, a 100 round mag while short changing the carbine version of it.
  13. Ghoest


    In other words you agree that it has a low velocity for a a long range gun - and you would rather talk about other stuff.

    /dismiss
  14. CanadianAttackBeaver

    I had this discussion with some outfit members today. Not a single one of them who plays LA or Engi views the AC-X11 as a long-range weapon. Almost unanimously it was viewed as a heavy hitting short to mid range gun. These 200 max damage weapons are a unique option for NC players, and the devs are clearly having issues with the balance aspects of them.

    I kid you not, someone laughed so hard at the notion it was a "sniper carbine" that I heard their drink spray their mic. I can only imagine what their monitor looked like. Sorry Wolfwood, maybe you should try the gun for a bit and see what it's like.
  15. Wolfwood82

    No, I don't play NC. And I don't use my forum name as my character name specifically to prevent morons from looking up my character name to try and figure out if there is something they can use to incriminate my statements.

    I also don't care what your outfit members think. My own outfit members say a lot of miss conceptualized opinions about things as well, that doesn't make them right. I've heard a serious discussing debating whether or not the Jaguar was a long range carbine.

    Facts are facts dude, the AC-X11 is a long range carbine. It's direct counter is the Pulsar C and their stats sync up along the lines fairly well. If you don't like the weapon, don't use the ******* weapon.
    In other words, you continue to have no clue of what you speak, super biased opinions, and are on par with Goretzu for valuable conversations.

    /dismiss

    Seriously geniuses, long range weapons do not have to have higher velocity rounds to be effective at long range, pick your targets better.
  16. RHINO_Mk.II

    i.e. Targets that are closer to you :rolleyes:
  17. Wolfwood82

    Tell that to the sniper rifles, at least a quarter of which are sitting at 500.
  18. Ghoest

  19. JonboyX

    I have 1,324 kills with the AC-X11; so I know how this gun works. I no longer use it because for a mid range gun, it's just too hard to handle when enemies are lining you up and firing back.

    At the range this gun should be best at, the kick on it makes it really hard to land consecutive shots when you're being hit, and as Wolfwood said - you practically have to switch to single fire mode. No thanks.

    Much prefer to take an all round gun that's situationally 90% good rather than a gun that's situationally 90% bad. I keep going back to see if I like it again, but I just don't. If anything, I prefer the forward gripped NS-11C as a ranged alternative but without all the close range downsides.
  20. RHINO_Mk.II

    And the only ones people use (RAMS, Parallax, Longshot) are sitting at 650.

    The problem is not hitting someone with a bullet that travels slowly. The problem is landing the follow up shots when they realize they are under fire and start dodging like a madman or sprint towards cover.

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