[Suggestion] A2G and G2A rebalance

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Demigan, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Scroffel5

    This whole post once again goes back to what you are about teamplay mechanics needing to be implemented, but once again, since we don't have that, we have to work with what we have. We can't stop progress from a lack of communication when it is possible to communicate; we just don't.

    You truly don't need the communication of the aircraft to know a Skyguard is in the area. It doesn't require it. They were going to blow it up whether or not the ESF mentioned anything. When that is cleared, the ESFs can then go in and attack. Please consider all I say in the context of the changes you already described, not as the game is now. The ESFs will be rebalanced to a degree where they can't attack, overexert, escape, and repeat. I was never saying that they would always lose to the Skyguard and they are prevented from getitng kills. I was saying that they have to choose a new area of the battle to do so. If the enemies have a Skyguard, are you going to fly right above it and farm up some kills? Of course not! You would die. You'd stay out of the range of the Skyguard, but you won't be able to assist your allies in the place where the Skyguard is. That is all I was trying to say.
  2. Demigan

    You didn't seem to be talking within the context of the changes I described, especially since you seemed to advocate the exact opposite of what I was trying to achieve. Apparently I misunderstood.

    As far as I can tell PS2 has only a few edge-cases where deliberate segregation results in improved gameplay. We don't want infantry AV completely blocking out vehicles for example, or vehicle AI to completely block out infantry. It's not good gameplay, it's far more enjoyable when they can go at it full tilt with no holds barred and still be threatening and lethal to each other.
  3. Scroffel5

    Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. When you are infantry fighting an AI sundy, you can still destroy it, but it either requires something stronger or many weak things to do so. You can either have an AV sundy come up to destroy the AI sundy (or some AV something) or a bunch of infantry to overrun it. I was thinking the same thing was AV. Having the Lightning as an Air Shredder makes it as lethal to AA as a Kobalt Harasser is to AI. You would still be able to destroy it with air, but you gotta play it smart or have multiple aircraft trying to destroy it. Don't get me wrong there either. I hate the Shredder, but if you aren't going to nerf it, might as well give the same effect to something on the ground.
  4. TR5L4Y3R

    i rather say up close they may perform the same they did before with the exception of higher damage,
    then again decreasing the splashrange i´m pretty sure will lead to more missed shots both upclose and especialy at range .. sooo over all i assume the gun will perform worse at range than it does now ...



    this being dbg you know it won´t happen ... otherwise we may have gotten lock ons as default for HAs...
    NC HAs would have gotten a default gr 22s over the gausssaw and VS and TR infils would have gotten their bolt action rifles ... 7 years later still nothing on that .. ... because ... ... .... ? ......




    you are making the mistake of turning the game to focus more torwards kills when it shouldn´t ..
    if players WANT to kill, if that´s the only thing they care about then there also can be options for that they can train into ... for every other beginner or novice player there needs to be a option for them to be able to defend themselves and/or give firesupport ...



    AI manaturret, high rof/high capacity lmgs, lasher, minichaingun and to a degree jackhammer as well as many splash launchers are a supressionoption ... heck hesh and heat can be supressionoptions ...

    as for a concussionmechanic: i dont´see this being a good idea with how difficult flying is still ..
    as well as the TTK of many weapons against esfs ... i definetively advise against putting a sort of constant screenshake on ESFs when using automatic guns against them ... ... autocannons like the viper? .... MAYBE ...
    hesh or heat? ... uuuuufffff ..... AP doesn´t realy matter does it?





    "Flak is changed from a low-skillceiling spray&pray to a more skillful dedicated weapons platform."

    this to me pretty much sounds like that .. ... if it is a low skill weapon you want to change but not be super difficult neither super easy then logic assumes you want it somewhere in the middle, no?
    just because it´s an automatic hold-down-the-button weapon doesnt´mean it´s easy to use ..
    and 2 meters splashrange is next to nothing honestly ...
    the basilisk being a straight forward weapon is not good to use on range it is only effective in close range were it can only beat the dumbest and weakest of ESFs ... make the flak similarly ineffective at range and beginners/novices suffer the same fate which leads rather to frustration than satisfaction ...
    but i´m sure you wouldn´t want it to be like that ...






    sry what? if aircraft gets too close to AA it should be shredded apart, simple as that ..
    if aircraft stays stationary it has no right to survife ANY consistent fire ..
    what you rather should want is for AA to scare away aircraft when it stays stationary at range for too long ..
    the walker ALREADY is what you want for G2A noseguns to be (except the AI variants), the ranger by its current version is less efficient at range than the walker so that relationship is already there ..




    honestly besides the AI variants i don´t see that much a difference between the walker and the noseguns
    they almost function the same (the only thing i do not know is the weaponclass vulnerbility of each), except with rotaries you fire in short bursts and have to reload more often (and those are shortranged weapons), the ranged noseguns and default ones almost require as much of their magazines similarly to a walker with its mags to down a ESF, that it may make no difference on the lightning because you can´t quickly fly after a retreating ESF ... in fact if you have a hovering esf vs another i argue you might be better of with the walker still cause while the noseguns on average have a higher RoF they still have less velocity ....

    higher RoF is usaly meant for close range were high velocity is meant for range ..
    considering flak, if it is to get its splash reduced it should be effective as a short to midrangeweapon imho ...
    (otherwise as alternative option there is the hyenaturret)

    i mean .. we could put all 4 of these as G2A weapons on the lightning i don´t think the non AI noseguns would be any less a deterence weapon than the walker is .. the difference merely is in which weapon allows for more margin for error ..

    ttk matters .. speaking best case scenario were you take 2 weapons and hit all shots
    f.e. if the flak has slower velocity while walker both has higher velocity and ROF you may come out better with the walker over the flak ... just as example ...

    also just because i showed you the velocity difference of the weapons doesn´t mean that i want flak to have 1000 m/s projecilevelocity, did i? to reiterate i said if flak were to lose its splash by this much it should have its projectilevelocity increased than it has now to compensate ... after all you WILL make it more difficoult to hit targets at range with flak, you decrease the RNG by reducing the cone of fire thus a player has to aim closer to the target or lead more ... you decrease the splash by a lot, which to my understanding is what makes the flakprojectiles home into aircraft, thus you further increase the neccesity for players to aim closer to airtargets or lead more ..
  5. Demigan

    That depends.
    In terms of "you are guaranteed X amount of damage at Y range" yes the weapon will perform worse. However the effectiveness at range will depend on the aircraft and the skill of the user.
    Currently if a newby see's a hovering aircraft at range and fire they'll miss a ton of shots because of the COF despite the 8m flak detonation range. With the COF decrease and DPS increase they'll be able to smack an aircraft very hard before it stops hovering around. An aircraft flying in straight lines or very predictable attack routes would also be easily punished.

    Keeping the weapon as-is would be a mistake. Yes it would on one hand be easier to hit. But hitting things does not make it fun or effective. It also means keeping the deterrent role we have now which is anathema to a good interplay between air and ground.

    We have seen things like afterburners auto-granted to Harassers, and a ton of passive upgrades to ESF (naturally). We can always ask and hope that at some point they'll listen.


    A weapon that kills is important. 99% of the weapons in the game are designed around the kill, the only exception is deterrent weapons and they all suck. There is little to no suppression in the game due to COF bloom, recoil and ammo capacity meaning the weapons simply aren't designed for it. If you want more supportive weapons that you need things like a concussion effect or the ability to protect nearby friendlies directly etc.

    Aside from the Lasher I've never seen any of those used as suppression in the sense you seem to be talking about. Who's going to screw their accuracy and gather up Heat on their MANA turret if firing when the enemy arrives is more useful? A minichaingun might pre-fire to get up to speed before going around a corner and other weapons can also be pre-fired if you are damn sure your opponent could come around the corner but aside from the Lasher I've never really seen people fire for suppression purposes. It's also easy to see why. The Lasher has a massive ammo capacity, the uptime required, the sustained accuracy when constantly firing and the specialized ammo to actually benefit from that kind of firing.

    Screenshake? I was talking mainly about reducing the maneuverability of the aircraft when it's hit. The duration can be short, say 1 to 3 seconds after each successful hit or after a consecutive X hits for example. It can be modified to something that is both useful but doesn't prevent aircraft from operating at all which is the exact thing I don't want.
    Just imagine it, you are flying about, about to attack and for one second your controls are much less responsive. That's dangerous and can prevent your attack especially if the option is that it can happen again if you stay your course.

    Ah yes I understand the confusion. Just remember is says skill ceiling. It would increase the skill ceiling and allow a player to do more if his skill increases.
    The skill floor would still be low, not as extremely low as it is now, but by no means mid-skill. With a 2m detonation range it would still easily be one of the easiest weapons in the game to use. Just think of it as an unstable-ammo Canis against aircraft. Easy to use, easy to hit with, not very punishing, but if you've got skills you can still improve with it.

    A stationary aircraft or one flying in straight lines while you have a bead on it? Yes those should be shredded. If they weren't shredded then we would be back to square 1 with aircraft simply having the option to escape any G2A fire 100% of the time if they get hit too much. However an aircraft that is trying to dodge shouldn't be automatically receive huge amounts of damage, the only exception being if they are extremely close (which is when just about any vehicle or infantry is about to get tons of damage so that's fair).

    The Walker is not what I want G2A noseguns to be as it's damage output is limited just like every other G2A weapon. It does not allow you to deal the massive amounts of damage that the ESF noseguns have against each other.

    If necessary (which is probably is) we can always change the Lightning version of the noseguns. Since it can't chase after aircraft you can give it more umph per clip. You could also focus more on a few Rotary variants with more accuracy. Say all of them with the same DPS but variations in ammo count per clip and accuracy.

    Yes that's my point. That's why I want flak to have it's effectiveness and ease-of-use be prevalent in shorter ranges while the other weapons are superior at longer ranges.

    The whole point is that yes it will be more difficult to have guaranteed hits. increasing the projectile velocity would push it into the Walker style weapon choice which is still a deterrent.
    The other weapons have a small flak detonation range, the flak would use a relatively big one compared to those and have a higher damage output than it has now. This will make it a weapon that is rewarding to hit with, it has a much better chance to score a hit but the moment range starts to increase you'll need more skill. That is balance as it means you have to make a choice why you want to be using a weapon and have reasons to make that choice.

    I don't see what is wrong with making hits harder. We go from "well at range a flak weapon is guaranteed hits but it's mostly superficial damage nothing really serious" to "you'll likely miss most shots the moment range is a factor, but if you've got the aim you can still whoop butt".
  6. TR5L4Y3R


    Aircraftmobility >>>>> groundvehiclemobility .... a groundvehicle only can dodge torwards 6 directions, except the magrider that can dodge torwards 8 directions being capable to strafe ...
    any aircraft however can (technically) manouver torwards 26 directions which makes it already harder for any ground AA source to aim well at aircraft ... meaning even with the more difficult controls of ESFs and libs these pilots and aircraftgunners only need to worry about groundvehicles manouvering to 6/8 directions ...

    give both platforms the same weapon .. like f.e. example wyrm and dalton which plattform would you say would be able to land more hits (assuming both pilots are sorta equal in skill) especialy when each platform would be a good range away ... like say 500m (max renderdistance i think would be too extreme)

    now granted a dalton might be more effective against a ESF than against a harrasser f.e. because of resistances ..
    but may point is on aim vs manouverbility of the plattforms ...

    i argue that the aircraft would still be at an advantage over the groundvehicle ..
    which makes me question the idea/decision to have a initialy easy to use/aim weapon to not be easy to use/aim at range (with apropriate risk/reward of course) ..

    i don´t mind if there are weapons that are more difficult to aim/use at range
    i do mind however when there aren´t options for beginners/novices (again with the apropriate risk/reward for any of these weapons) i don´t see why these types of weapons can´t coexist with oneanother .. because people getting annoyed when they are consistenly tickled?

    you could as well reduce flaksplash to just 5 or 4 instead of 2 while decreasing the CoF at range and only slightly buff the damage or keep it the same but instead then buff bulletvelocity ..
  7. TR5L4Y3R

    sry but this i disagree with ..






    the supression i speak of is to lay fire on an area to either keep the opponent from advancing torwards that area or him risking taking damage ...

    affecting a persons manuverbility or aim is the area of concussion- and flashgrenades which personaly i do not aprove of being part in vehiclecombat with a similar mechanic through ordinance- or machinegunfire .. the general use of vehicles and their average surviveability of them would make such mechanics potentionaly too strong when faced in numbers by basicaly disabling a players capability to manuever or aim entirely and being defenseless through consistent hits ...
    it can especialy screw up novicepilots and learning to fly is already a b itch in this game ...
  8. Demigan

    There is a very big difference between ground and air vehicle dodging capabilities. But does that mean flak needs to be as ultra-easy as it is? Is there truly no room to allow the flak weaponry to still remain the easiest weapon category in the game but still dial it in so there's more room for both sides to grow?

    As for the effect of noseguns on Lightnings. Yes they would probably need some buffs against aircraft to be more viable, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get them first. Even with a non-upgraded Rotary it would be so much better to surprise hovering ESF or to pick off a damaged target as it passes over.