A2AM are OP

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by fart11eleven, Jan 28, 2016.

  1. Serialkillerwhale

    Same F***ing thing with an AP+Halberd vs. a HEAT+Basilisk, or a fully certed shield and gauss SAW vs. the Wrist-f****er saw and level 0 shield.

    See where I'm going with this? Certs are UPGRADES.
  2. Alkaid1

    sorry dude but that's wrong. let me explain why:

    A2A lock ons are designed to help new players to get into airgameplay. New players who want to start flying have not enought certs to buy these missiles...
    go on the live server and look how many people use the tomcats! at least half of them are hight skilled pilots who have a hight battalrank and aren't new to airgameplay!! the lock ons aren't designed for those players!!!

    look at Miller: the second highest BR char on our server is a guy called Ac3s. Ironicly he is only flying with lock ons and banshee or needler...
    everyday he is grouping up with friends of him and killing enemy esf with 2-4 lock of mossys....

    what advantage do u have over the lock ons if u use afterburner?
    the agility u win is useless cause u nether cant dodge them nor can outrun them!! even the use of flairs is useless cause the "reload" of the flairs is much slower than the A2A missiles one...
  3. fart11eleven

    Did not want to write here anymore, cause it makes me mad all over again, but this is exactly what i am facing everyday. Players, even higher BRs, are totally fine with using this weapon. Ac3s is one of the reasons i made this thread, cause he is a higher BR knowing how to use this weapon, and somehow does not get bored of it.

    As far as i was hearing in all the discussions is that this weapon was designed to bring newbies into the air play. But it is used not that way in day to day battler. On the opposite: experienced players use this weapon all the time, and they do not seem to get tired of it or are aware of the beautiful airplay else, cause this weapon just destroys air to air gameplay. I totally disagree with this lame weapon and players who choose this lame playstyle (maybe they like the flames, i have no idea what drives their sick brains).

    My opionion has changed since i made this thread. The more i think about it, this weapon, imo, has no place in PS2 airplay. It is the lamest thing you can ever use, and those who use it, are just as lame.
    • Up x 1
  4. zaspacer

    "Sky Knights" are (many of them) hypocrites. They complain about players who use one type of A2A Loadout ESFs, but they themselves use an A2A Loadout vs. A2G ESFs. And they also cry when there is talk of removing Fuel Tank from Wing Mount or making it standard on ESF, which would give other ESFs the edge they use. And they often hunt in packs and gang up on weaker targets, yet they complain about "honor" from others.

    They just want their edge, the same as every other self-serving type of player.

    The A2A "nosegun+AB playstyle" is not hard. It's easier than the A2A "using A2G Loadout" playstyle, it's easier in A2A than just about every "non-A2AM Loadout". It's the engagements themselves that make things hard for those pilots using nosegun+AB (or any other Loadout) playstyle and trying to challenge themselves. A player running "nosegun+AB playstyle" and flying solo into a swarm of enemy ESFs far from their own Warpgate is playing hardmode. A player running "nosegun+AB playstyle" and doing dedicated A2G vs. opponents with good AA is hardmode. A player running "nosegun+AB playstyle"and flying in a large Air Gank Squad and farming unaware, singleton A2G ESFs is not playing hardmode. A top ESF player running "nosegun+AB playstyle" and flying on an empty server and farming unaware, lower skill, singleton A2G ESFs is not playing hardmode.

    Players running "nosegun+AB playstyle" still have one of the best A2A Loadouts. It give them better speed and better movement/evasion.

    Yes, there are some Sky Knights who make low level alts and use Uncerted/Undercerted ESFs to pick very hard fights. Yeah, that is definitely playing hardmode. But just picking nosegun+AB does not equal playing hardmode, it's the engagements relative to the Loadout that make it hard. Let's not confuse the issue.

    I also a while back said A2A is hard and A2G is easy. That was too simple a statement, it is not always correct. A2G can be very easy, or it can be hard, depends on your Loadout and the engagement. A2A difficulty is relative to your Loadout and the engagement. Playing A2G with an A2G ESF gets *very hard* when they are jumped by an A2A ESF (or A2A ESF Gank Squad) *and* the A2G ESF has already taken damage or already used their Fire Suppression *and* they still have to deal with enemy AA that is targeting them in the area.

    With regards to the topic of A2AM, how about just reduce the Max Ammo on the A2AM? That at least puts bigger user strain on using it. So drop the A2AM Max Ammo from 1+10 to maybe 1+7 (with each Ammo Cert giving it +1 at each level, so default is 1+4). While they're at it, they should reduce the Max Ammo on the Hornet, from 2+58 to maybe 2+38.

    Current Wingmounts: Ammo vs. # Full Discharges

    Wingmount..............Mag Size............Ammo+Mag..........# full discharges
    TR Rocket Pods...........16........................96..............................6
    NC Rocket Pods...........12........................72 .............................6
    VS Rocket Pods...........14........................84..............................6



    • Up x 1
  5. Obstruction

    the thing is man, they aren't going to be removed because they are a major cash seller. whether the people that buy them ever get good in the air or even stay with PS2 doesn't matter; the perception of them being pay to win has driven their sales since launch. as RadarX has stated on reddit "[we feel that] the game is better with them in, than out."

    the best we can hope for is that some QoL issues are addressed within the Lock/Flare meta that encourage players to move away from lock ons as their skill increases, and yet doesn't punish their use if the players skill has plateaued very early in progression.

    the best quick list of changes to the Lock/Flare system by general consensus of most of the threads are as follows:

    • flares become ammo based, and block 1 missile in flight per flare at a high percentage of success with a chance of failure
    • ghost reload is removed from ESF
    • chain lock "feature" is removed from A2A lock ons so that fleeing is a solution
    • possible damage resistance balancing +/- per target type after the above changes provide data for 30 days
    • lock time/distance/ammo rebalance +/- after 30 days
    the idea is to improve counterplay against lock ons - specifically against groups - first. then after some time, improve the lock on users experience through changes to the numbers so that everyone gets a fun experience from both sides of it.
  6. zaspacer

    Add Air Radar (Air Autodetected on Map above any enemy territory)

    Reduce Mag+Ammo for A2AM.

    Increase Lockon Jamming time after Flare use vs. A2AM.

    Split Stealth into Jamming (Lockon disruption aspect) and Stealth (auto-detect aspect).

    Auto-Bounty any player on a kill streak of 20. Allow multiple bounties to stack. Give a stacked bounty to a player every 20 kills. Show different Bounty icons with the stacks.

    Yes, Gank Squads are powerful. The game isn't doing much to address them. At some times the only effective counter to them is: switch to their Faction, switch Continents, switch Servers, or log off.
  7. SW0V

    I agree. Whether you're challenging yourself is mostly dependent on the engagement and not your loadout.

    I disagree with respect to your proposed changes to the A2AM and Hornets though.

    Personally, I would completely revamp the A2AM in the following ways:

    1. Decrease the size of the reticule to be half way between the current reticule and the rotary reticules.
    2. Increase the lock range bonus to 150m. (total of 350m instead of 250m)
    3. Increase the reduction in lock-time with the lock-time cert line by maybe as much as 40% instead of the current 20%.
    4. Increase the magazine size to 2 and increase total capacity to 2+18 (2+28 with max capacity). Give it a RoF of 60-90 RPM.
    5. Make it shoot fast Swarm style missiles only, inheriting all of the stats including damage, flight time and velocity.
    6. Reduce the stock reload time to 3s.
    7. Increase the reload speed bonus to 1s

    What are the desired outcomes of my changes?

    Separate the A2AM into 3 types of playstyles.
    1. Long range deterrence (lock range)
    2. Short dogfighting (lock time)
    3. SPAM! (reload speed)

    Increase the skill floor necessary to use them effectively in CQC. You should have to aim at least a little if you don't have to lead your target and the reduction in lock time will make it handle more like a nosegun.
    Increase the 'fun' of trying to dodge incoming Swarm style lock-ons.

    Overall damage output would remain the same. 2 Swarms = 1 A2AM in terms of damage. If RoF = 60 and reload speed is reduced by 1s then this also balances out in terms of raw DPS output. The reasoning for splitting the damage into 2 missiles is to redue the effectiveness of swapping to nosegun as a damage boost. It's also a way to hedge bets with respect to damage if the new Swarm mechanics are implemented. 1 Swarm rocket is too easy to dodge you can easily time your maneuvers as the rocket is on its approach. With 2 rockets, this is significantly harder.

    Increased magazine size to make up for its lower reliability.

    Also, Hornets are fine IMO. Reducing the total capacity would just make it un-fun to use because you'd constantly be resupplying. But it wouldn't do anything in terms of farming ground.
    • Up x 2
  8. zaspacer

    I think your ideas are neat. But...

    While I like the idea of different Certlines of A2AM leading to different uses, it seems like the uses are so different from each other, that it actually makes each use type get stuck in a single Certline Track. Wouldn't it be better to just make 2 new A2A Weapons.

    Does the Short Dogfighting A2AM overlap in usage with the Coyote? While we're at it, shouldn't we "fix" the coyote by either (1) making it work better vs. Stealth, or (2) nerfing Stealth by breaking it up into 2 different Slots (Jamming and Stealth), or (3) making it better AI?

    And I don't like the idea of increasing the skill floor on ESF Weapons. It's already very hard for most players to get into ESF. And it's already the case that higher skill players have a MASSIVE advantage because the skill ceiling is both very high and set with a massive power level boost at the high levels (rather than just a high ceiling, but with only slight power level boosts at those high levels).

    So I am totally on board to make the Weapons you describe. But I want to keep the A2AM noob tube intact, want to make sure they didn't overlap Coyote, fix Coyote, and make sure the skill Ceiling isn't pushed higher (unless it's for only small power level boost gains).

    Hornets have far too much Ammo. I use them as my default A2G Wingmount, and I can go for a crazy long time before I have to resupply.

    Rocket Pods get 6 Full Discharges. Rocket Pods are powerful, but the user has to leave the engagement often to Resupply. It also makes the Ammo Supply Certline matter.

    Hornets get 30 Full Discharges. Hornets are powerful, and the user doesn't have to leave the engagement much at all. This gives the defenders no breathing room, and doesn't motivate the Hornet user to exercise Ammo management/awareness. And the Ammo Supply Certline doesn't matter so much.

    Even with my proposed Ammo nerf to Hornet, they'd still get 20 Full Discharges. Which is still a lot of operation time without need to resupply.

    I do think Rocket Pods are more usable against more targets than Hornet. And the Hornet Ammo makes a huge reason on why not to take Rocket Pod over Hornet more often. But I think even with Ammo moved to 40 (which is still high Ammo and number of Full Discharges), Hornet would still be a popular choice.

    The question becomes why have Ammo limits? What do different Ammo limits do in terms of impacting a Weapon (for user and for opponent)? And which weapons should have larger or small Ammo limits?
  9. ColonelChingles

    That's pretty much how it works IRL.

    Semi-Active Radar Homing (Long Range)
    These would be like the current Tomcats, requiring the pilot to maintain a constant lock for the duration of the missile flight. But the range probably needs to be increased. The counter to this is the usual countermeasures or simply by breaking lock.

    Active Radar Homing (Medium Range)
    These would be like the old "fire and forget" Tomcats. Shorter range, but doesn't require the pilot to maintain a constant lock.

    Infrared Homing (Short Range)
    Pretty much the current Coyotes, able to find the target themselves from very short range. Also doesn't require a lock, because the missile looks for the target itself.

    A little like this (except IR homing instead of passive radar):


    Though there's no reason why missiles shouldn't be the primary weapon of A2A combat.