How do you know why he's "ranting"? You're the one who repeatedly writes him novels with an insulting character analysis of him, that you imagined up. The fact that you're trying to tell him what he thinks means that you do not truly value the opinions and criticisms of others. In your initial post, you drew the conclusion that the NC MAX is a "huge paper holder" outside of "his domain". This is an invalid conclusion, based on the evidence you gave us. You did not take cover or charge into account; and by doing so, you heavily biased the test results to favor the NC MAX. You even specifically chose test variables to show the NC MAX getting served, by allowing the TR MAX to continue firing while the NC MAX reloads. This was what he was criticizing. Your test is absurd and the conclusions you draw from it go far beyond what the evidence shows; and the more you ignore and shame people for criticizing this, the more the bias starts to look deliberate.
Let's be fair here. NC MAX also got to take free shots at the reloading TR MAX whenever it happend. The test results would've remaind the same even if both MAXs are polite enough to stop firing whenever the other guy is reloading.
Thanks for that video. You specifically showed why they are OP. Though it's a bit unrealistic. To do this for real imagine the max user has charge and in each video charges the max. That's how the fight usually happens and always ends with the NC max winning. Other than that I think this is all the proof we need for the devs to rebalance them against maxes or maybe allow all maxes to have some kind of close range mode.
Unless the other MAX has it's back against the wall with nowhere to run. He can also dash away to maintain his optimal range and make you waste your charge timer . This is a tactic I've been encountering more and more often these days. Annoying as hell but a legit tactic nonetheless.
The only fights I've had serious issues in is biolabs. I'd charge away but those shotguns do so much damage that you have no real range in the hack rooms. They can basically camp them perfectly and if you try for another door they charge and hit you and you die as you try to charge away. I was mentioning a biolab fight earlier and it was 2 guys spawning them over and over and completely eating through our infantry. (We were just lucky they couldn't take the hack points).
Isn't this ranting? Instead of bringing constructive criticism, like you did, he decided to simply go HUR DUR on the video, instead of trying to give an idea of what should be improved (although considering the video, there is no way to improve it other then doing Live Streams or stuff like that.) So let me understand. Does in real combat, as soon as a NC MAX stops to reload, do people stop shooting him? Why should this be true in the test? Hiding in cover is completely different from stop shotting. Yes, LoS is broken, and so is the TR one, since there isn't a magical wallhack available only to NC MAXes. Although that in places like Biolabs, as in...welll...biolabs, NC MAXes dictate the flow of combat inside the place. Unloading ALL the damage as fast as possible in such a test is needed to see how effective something can kill something. Against infantry that's meaningless, since TTK is so low it doesn't matter, but in MAX vs, MAX combat, this is needed and happens. In real combat, infantry is shooting at me, even though I'm reloading here, so this point is valid on the test. In such tests, the need for killing one of them in order to consider the test finished IS needed, and therefore, also consider the effective killing power one has. People don't stop shotting and to actually see the damage potential of a TR MAX, nor should he stop shooting. This is a straight damage comparison at several ranges while certifing that the NC MAX isn't OP at 30M+ (I tried the slugs again in real combat, it's possible to snipe people at 100M+, but only like 1~2 times. Most of the combat made was made the same way Purg did on Vanu Archives). While its not hard to do, if I was trying to do so while focused fired, I would simply not be able to do it (did the 100M shot when not one single shot was coming my way, so I could stand and shot several rounds, until 3 hit the dude and killed him). As I said, the test represents the IDEAL scenario. People where saying that the VS was the worst, and in fact it did much better then the TR one. People keep saying that the NC MAX is OP in CQC. Well, shotguns. They are. I use a light assault with a Mauler and it is devastating when used against enemies at close range. Being able to down four infantries with 1 smoke grenade and 1 10 round clip for a mauler makes the shotgun OP? Of course not, thanks to the drawbacks it brings. If there is something that needs to be changed then is the place all those complains are coming from, which is the Biolbas, who offer only cramped spaces for infantry combat, not allowing more infantry combat at longer corridors. The problem ends up being also of map design and Metagame (something few people have considered). Hell, I used TR MAXes to charge against infantry in open terrain, and do not do so with the NC MAX, because I know I won't bring enough firepower to justify the use of the MAX, differentely from the TR MAX, which I can bring a dual cycler and add firepower to a forwarding team. Devs consider the reload time an important aspect of combat, and if they made something wrong was not for friendly soldiers to have mass as well, leaving the NC MAX to run around with no problem. Smoke grenades in bunches. We used them with great effect today on a biolab, and they really work. Throw a smoke, a C4 and boom, dead MAX. People are under the idea that the NC MAX will ALWAYS charge in and WILL always charge in, and instantly charge out. The problem is also VERY related to spawn camps, which are as easy to do with MAXes as they are to do with Liberators/HE Shells/Rocketpods on the outside. In an open field, where there could be MAXes as well, the NC MAX has to close up or he'll die. His domain is the CQC. He does his job marvelously, as so do the others against infantry. Diminishing the damage from Scatter guns by 50% on MAXes is a viable solution which will retain the stopping power of the NC MAX, while not being able to vaporize enemy MAXes, but you'll have to tighten up the CoF, for us to be deadly in longer ranges, or else, what will happen? YES, the test I just showed people! That's the thing most who aren't agreeing with it aren't understanding. You saw what happens when a NC MAX has to come to close range to destroy an enemy MAX? If he isn't able to do so, the TR MAX will have almost 3 seconds to simply shot LOTS of bullets, MORE then enough time to destroy an NC MAX. The high alpha is a necessity for the NC MAX, if he goes down due to a lack of damage at close range, then the other MAXes will simply tank him and the whole nerf thing will start over again, against VS and TR this time. Or even worse, buff the NC MAX to levels the developers won't see sometimes. This IS mostly a biolab problem and a camp spawn problem. At smaller spaces, the NC MAX is supposed to own people.
The fact that you're mocking it by calling it "polite" makes me wonder if you understand the problem. No one is going to sit in the open while they are not firing back. I also wonder if you even watched the video. The TR MAX does not need to reload until the very end of the 20m fight. The NC MAX clearly would have won the 15m fight and the 20m fight is questionable. Reloading accounts for over 2/3rds of the NC MAX's time. In an unlikely but ideal situation, he could reduce the damage taken by that 2/3rds. I believe the TR only has a slight advantage at 20m because of this. He should not survive with half his life left and will easily lose if the NC only pops out to fire. However, this ignores charge and the fact that the NC MAX is splashing other people with all the missed pellets. This makes the NC MAX a clear winner, even out to 20m. It only takes 0.5 seconds for an NC MAX to kill. A charge from less than 15m is a guaranteed win with minimal health loss. You might be charging too close or from too far away. It's also sad how you find it "annoying" that you can't instagib a MAX, as if that should even be possible.
And here we go, you going into full defensive mode. Gee, we talking about reloads now? I can throw the same argument back at you, nobody is going to let a half living max get away and reload in peace. And wow, you actually talking about possibility of missed pellets hitting other targets now? It's down right idiotic to value randomness over consistancy, not to mention nothing is stopping the TR MAX to hose down groups either. I'm tired of all these theory crafting, if you think the video is so flawed, make your own video to prove otherwise then. Have a Sunderer park next to the NC MAX for him to side step behind during reload or something. And if the result still doesn't match your expectation, go ahead and move on to "But you see, if both MAXs have these and that cert, it clearly tild everything to NC MAX's favor...." or "But if the NC MAX has these and that class teammates with him..." or "Nobody stands still in real fights..." arguments that we see all too often whenever somebody is set on proving certain things are OP'd or UP'd instead of basing his conclusions on factual datas. There's simply no end for people like you. Just make the video see what the community thinks. I wonder where you pull that 0.5 second number from. But anyway, I've been running MAXs of all 3 factions. I actually prefer NC because of it's design aesthetic above anything else. And I was actually one of those people who thought Hacksaw was a no brainer upgrade that rendered other NC MAX weapons pointless and needs to be tunned down before these videos. Go see my post at the MAX AI weapon spreadsheet thread if you don't believe me. Finally all I did was stating what appeared to work against charging NC MAX with decent consistancy. Which I in term has duplicated when I playing on none-NC MAXs. I don't care if I instagib or not, you simply ASSUMED I do with zero bases what-so-ever. So don't pretend you know me.
Cover is an element you have to account for. I don't care how you do it. One way is to simulate it by not firing as much while someone is reloading. Another way is to admit the bias and adjust your conclusions accordingly. You did neither of these and I'm beginning to suspect it's because you tried to alter the outcome, either intentionally or subconsciously. It does matter. Scat MAXes kill literally instantly. The other MAXes do not. That means you will often kill people before they can even shoot, which makes a huge difference when preventing damage from infantry. The fact that you assume "it doesn't matter", again, shows your incredible bias. I should make it a point, again, that shotgun pellets hit multiple people; so while you're focused on that MAX, you probably killed some infantry by accident too. Everyone seems to be ignoring this and assuming all those missed pellets just disappear. This is utter nonsense. You might be the world's worst player if you don't pop in and out to lessen incoming damage. If this is the case, it's no wonder you have so much trouble killing things at a range. Also, why would anyone fire full speed, at a range?! The video you made with slugs is so grossly incompetent. That is NOT the way to optimize DPS. Another poster demonstrated that slugs are accurate when you slow the fire rate. Even at 15m, without slugs, I don't doubt that your DPS would greatly increase by staggering your fire rate. If you had bothered to look at the spreadsheets, you would have noticed that shotguns have a MASSIVE CoF recoil increase, 20x larger than Cyclers. ... what? Do you realize that TTK assumes you live in a vacuum where engineers aren't healing and other people aren't shooting? Do you approach every battle with full health and duke it out without interference? Yeah, ideal for NC; and you based your STANDARD conclusion on an IDEAL scenario. VS are still making terrible AI weapon choices, like Blue Shifts and Comets. I could care less what everyone's opinion on their weapons is. The Quasar and Cycler are nearly identical. The fact that you even "tested" both shows that you don't know what you're doing. Cycler has only 1.6% more DPS and both have the same CoF after 20 bullets. Quasar has a shorter reload but less bullets. Clearly the Quasar will win by 0.3s if both require reloads. In real combat though, you wouldn't wait until you run out of ammo to reload; instead, you would do it when you lose line of sight. That's a strawman. Nobody cares about shotguns being strong in CQC. The problem is, NC MAXes have two, full damage shotguns and the other MAXes have the equivalent of one hipfire LMG. I'm sure you get a bunch of thrill kills with them but it's not hard to back up a bit and spam spotting. Moreover, the tactic only works because you know exactly where the defenders are. Once you start pushing into the base, the positions of defenders are no longer known and they will easily reestablish control, by virtue of being able to instagib every person who rounds a corner. And you are, apparently, under the impression that he HAS to charge out. The goal is to push forward and maintain control of an area so the rest of the defense can follow. This big "problem" you speak of, is that TR and VS MAXes can kill you... after five, long seconds while standing still, with no cover...? Ridiculous. When TR and VS can gib you in 0.5 seconds, we'll call it even, ok? Until then, a 50% nerf sounds pretty good, considering the other MAXes are using a hipfire LMG. You say you're bad at a range? I could refer you to your smug reply, from before: "Well, shotguns. They are."
Apparently, responding when you quote me is "defensive". Am I supposed to feel bad for having an opinion? Are you trying to silence dissent? Have you read any of this thread? You just quoted one of my posts about reloads. We've always been talking about reloads. Get with the program. Here's a thought: why don't we take all factors into consideration instead of doing a mindless TTK "test" in a vacuum. How do you plan on doing that? By closing the distance and getting instagibbed? It's not hard to get 1-2 seconds of cover at a range. I don't "think" it's flawed, it IS flawed. There are plenty of NC MAX videos. I would invite you to stop being lazy and find them. In fact, there are already two here: Buzz's video and the slug video. And no, I don't have to waste my time making videos to criticize this video. That's not how peer review works. You're just trying to silence criticism of this video by telling us our opinions are invalid without our own videos. Videos themselves are worth nothing. The analysis of them is all that matters; and you, apparently, don't even want to talk about the video. I guess you just want to see some MAXes shooting and declare a winner, without even thinking about why he won. Is that what "people like you" like to see? This is anti-intellectual nonsense. Again, did you watch the video? The first kill was in 0.5 seconds. What part of "it's annoying when they charge away" was unclear? Gee, other MAXes have a way to prevent themselves from being instagibbed if you charge from very far away. That must be so frustrating!!! "Zero bases" you say? If you say so...
Jesus ******* christ. And that would be to what end? I'M proposing 50% damage reduction on scatter guns against MAXes. You still are under the illusion that MAXes are always running around not getting bullets at them because they always run and noone shoots them while they are reloading. OMG, he went behind a wall and waited for the reload? ABSURD! This is called positioning and NC MAXes can do it as well. Hell, I was playing with the TR MAX, and was 10+ meters away from a MAX INSIDE A BIOLAB and I didn't even run after cover, even more with engineer support. And I'm the one with bias? Right, because ALL TR/VS bullets go straight as an arrow and don't hit NOTHING AROUND THEM WHEN THERE ARE 10 PEOPLE+ DIVIDING THE SAME SQUARE METER, RIGHT? I've killed people with TR MAXes just as fast as the NC one, with less bullets spent and more efficiently. The are deadly at close range, even more sinde they deal double damage to headshots in comparison to scatter MAXes. They hit people outside they reticule? Wow, so does TR and VS. The pellet spread is huge enough to avoid killing people OUTSIDE my reticule at close range. NC MAXes only kill what is on they reticule at 10M+ max. TR/VS do so at 20~30M MUCH more easily and efficiently then the NC MAX, which MIGHT kill someone at 20M+ if he unloads all those shots (while the TR/VS MAX doesn't have to spend 1/5 of the standard capacity to do so). Well, then by what YOU just said, nor does the NC MAX, which makes him EVEN more killable then people are talking about. Or do NC MAXes live at full health all the time? It's called team support and if the others don't get any, that's not the MAXes problem, but a team related problem. Do you understand what the test wants? It's a ANTI-INFANTRY WEAPONS TEST. Not a COMBAT EFFICIENCY TEST. Not a COMBAT HOW-TO TEST. Not a RUN FOR COVER test. It's a strict ANTI-INFANTRY WEAPONS TEST. If you can't understand that this is an IDEAL TEST, LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE THAT IS DONE IN SCIENCE OR ANY EXPERIMENTATION, You don't know HOW to make tests. You want to prove me wrong? Make a video in YOUR parameters, expose them, THEN come saying the test is a dud. Until then, This is a TEST! IN AN IDEAL SITUATION FOR BOTH MAXES! Because people, although the numbers were there, STILL WOULD THINK THAT THE QUASAR IS HUGELY HORRIBLE COMPARED TO THE TR VERSION! You, YOURSELF, want to get the NC MAX in an IDEAL situation FOR HIM, AND SAY HE'S OP! Do you even understand WTF are you talking about? IF ANY MAX breaks LoS, HE has the advantage, specially if he needs to stay behind some cover and wait for others to come. ******* do a video the way you think a test should be done then show it here. LoS is OP for the NC MAX? What can I do, in cramped spaces, shotguns are awesome. If THAT'S the problem, why asking for a nerf for the NC MAX, if you could get a BUFF for the other two? Most people are for Buffs, fewer against nerfs. 1 hipfire LMG? Do YOU actually see the numbers to say that? THAT's a strawman what YOU are doing, since both have the power in each arm of 1 single LMG (OMG, I can't hit people hip firing at 50m, thats so stupid). Go check the game files, the TR version has the same numbers as 3 out of 4 LMGs, while the VS has the same as 1 out of 4 LMGs. What most people want is the RAW damaging power the shotgun has while shooting lots of bullets per minute. They work very nice against people at up to 150% extra range then the NC MAXes, but NO, DEM NC MAXES ARE KILLING ME IN CLOSE RANGE! NO, UNFAIR! 2 Fully functioning shotguns? The spread is higher, the damage is the same (as are yours), the CoF is HIGHER then those of shotguns, the rolads are as big, larger CoF while walking. Same as you. The problem isn't the shotguns, is the ability to carry TWO SHOTGUNS THAT MAKE THIS DEADLY! A single shotgun used with extended mags can almost kill a MAX as well, why shouldn't a dual shotguns wielder NOT do it? First, spoting doesnt work through smoke. Second, suppressor make you even more invisible inside the smoke (YOU inside the smoke), third, throwing one smoke isn't enough so more are needed, grab grenade bandolier and get those 2 extra smoke grenades. They work wonders. Once defenders are pushed back, keep moving forward and mining/C4ing the chokepoint they are gonna have to come through. Tactics? Charge in, having no backup, oh no, dead to the defenders that outnumber/outgun him? If people are all cramped up in one single place, YOU are making the job easier for the NC MAX, not the other way around. I've seen it a lot, people bunching up on those stair on the staircase next to the generator in biolabs, while that large room had noone else on the corner to defend and shoot at longer ranges. OF COURSE ITS GONNA BE A MASSACRE! AND, since the logic fails you, if they SUCK at range, they MUST be murdering machines at close range. OH LOOK, that MAX didn't kill me, so he's dead since, if doesn't run, hes gonna die! Can't TR and VS MAXes run for cover as well? Yes, I forgot, it only benefits the NC MAX, since he can kill MAXes @5m in 1 second flat (using dual Hacksaw), while the other two have to make it so in 4 more seconds @ 10m, where NC MAXes can't kill them unless certing to extended mags? So, LMG are working as LMGs and shotguns are working as shotguns? If you want, ask Devs to increase that RoF to the LMG standards and move on with it. I see only NERF NC MAXes. Do you even know why devs are more afraid of buffing TR/VS MAXes then nerfing the NC MAX? Because of Beta. The Heavy Cycler was in the same spot as the NC MAX, delivering hell at close range against NC MAXes, with the NC MAXes without any hope of defeating them. What, getting frustated of dual shotguns kill dual LMG at point blank range? THat is SO frustrating! Well, shotguns. They are. And this is why I have to make replies like these. People say whatever they want, but prove nothing. Am I wrong? Prove it then. Let people decide.
Check the game files, that's rich, how about you did that yourself next time?.. a Heavy cycler fires at almost 50% the firerate of a Carv, while the Carv does the same damage per bullet. Hell just do a very quick recording of firing the weapons and you'll notice how slowly TR/VS Weapons fire when compared to a LMG of equal damage. TR/VS receive two guns, each about half as effective as a LMG. OH BUT WAIT, they don't get iron sight, they dont get red dot, they dont get foreward grip and they dont get the different ammo types normal infantry have. So they basically get 1 LMG, but without the utility that makes a LMG good. But sure, it's fine the NC get 2 fully functional shotguns with the only two upgrades that have ever mattered for a shotgun: Extended magazine and slugs. As for why not asking for a buff? Have you even considered for a moment what would happen if a TR/VS MAX had access to 2 fully operational LMG's? Imagine 2 carvs, iron sighted on your face.. Now imagine that in the hands of every single TR MAX.. Your days would be over. In fact all infantry combat would be over, dead right there. You would not be able to beat it, ever. The whine NC receives for the Scatmax would pale by comparison, to the whine over TR/VS MAXes would get at that point. So we're left with 1 LMG's hipfire.. Which is not comparable to 2 shotguns. Simplest solution: Buff TR/VS firerate by roughly 20-25%, nerf NC firerate by 25%, until it leaves everyone with 75% firerate of the gun it's based on, then give TR/VS the ability to cert red dot.
You have assault rifle hipfire as a base with less than half the full spread. Stop with the obfuscation and misdirection to make your position look more valid. [Edit: Whoops, wrong weapon type. ^_^]
Are you telling me carbines shoot slower somehow? Because last I checked they fired the same speed/slightly faster. Doesn't really change the amount of damage you pump out. Second less than half the spread? have you been huffing paint? Let's compare the Mercies to a LC3 Jaguar then if you're so keen on them being carbines. Same bullet damage, about half the rate of fire (since guess what, carbines shoot as fast as most LMG's). But we already knew that, so lets look at hip fire CoF: Mercy: Still/moving/Sprinting/Jumping: 1.25/1.75/5/7 LC3 Jaguar: still/moving/sprinting/jumping: 1.25/1.75/5/7 What's that?.. they have the same accuracy? WELL WADDAYA KNOW. (and that's only using the Minimum accuracy for the Mercy) And if I did the comparison between a less accurate carbine and a Heavy cycler? Guess what! then the Carbine is actually MORE accurate, except when jumping where it's the same!
No, I just know how to read a chart. A skill you apparently lack. OBJECTION!!! Let's examine the evidence once more. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdEx6azNNdVozRmxLVkI2WnZmS2NqV1E&gid=0 Pay close attention to the section covering the various weapons' cone of fire... Why, it appears that the actual maximum spread of all TR weapons and most of the Vanu weapons... Is three! And the maximum hip-spread of an assault rifle is seven!* The values aren't split one per column, the minimum and maximum values are attached to each other, separated by a forward slash. Both stationary and moving are the same. What say you, Mr. Lietek?! *I can't find my source on this anymore, but you can test it in-game and it is very obvious. **Now that I'm thinking about it, it might have been six, meaning only twice as accurate rather than slightly more than... ***Why yes I did just start another run through the Turnabout Court series, how did you know?
Actually no, it would appear that it's a skill you lack. FAIL on so many levels JackofFail since we've apparently resorted to being 12 year old name callers
Okay, point out where the chart says I'm wrong. ...Turn off your computer. Go find a Gameboy Advance if you're in Japan, a DS if you're anywhere else. Somehow acquire a copy of Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. You can thank me later. Proof enough for you, Mr. Sahwit? Or should I say... Mr. Did-It! *Kneeslap*
Okay since you're so keen on making other people 'try playing as a NC MAX and tell me how it feels' Make a TR scrub character, trial an extra heavy cycler.. stand at about 15 meters.. Fire at a wall until it reaches full CoF. Then take the TR LA/Engineer and fire at the wall with your carbine. Realize that no, the heavy cycler is in fact NOT twice as accurate when hipfired as the carbine as you seem to claim. The only real difference you will find is that the carbine has more recoil.
The worst part is that I actually have considered. I'd prefer TR to have half the damage but three times the rate of fire it has now, in order to balance out, while tightening the CoF. Those chainguns aren't that cool to use, not accounting for utility, but for style. Or they can simply double the NC MAX RoF, and it's good by me. What people want is a HUGE nerf, and it'll will affect ALOT the NC MAX when they do it. A nerf might affect the NC MAX more then the TR and VS variants. Halving the RoF of the NC MAXes will make it less instagibbish for TR and VS while still gibbing people in his face.
Just tested. First, I'd like to correct you, as I edited my post twenty minutes before you posted your response replacing carbine with assault rifle. I don't know why you're so stuck on that, or why you didn't notice it while writing your response, but whatever. I tested the default carbine, assault rifle, and the Heavy Cycler, and... The Heavy Cycler was twice as accurate/half as inaccurate*, exactly as I said it would be. Go ahead, try it yourself. *Both the carbine and the assault rifle seemed to have the same max CoF.
