A tip to skyguard scrubs to avoid lib deaths

The point is, low-skilled players also use the Dalton and they die when using it in A2A combat. Their stats are added to the total. And hey! It looks like despite that they get more kills than Skyguards in A2A combat!
Even if they didn't, let's say they got 50% of the kills a Skyguard gets... It still rocks against vehicles. Which the Skyguard doesn't. So it is better at killing vehicles and better at killing aircraft? Why would it be that good? Oh yeah, because of the weapon. The weapon is an integral part of the skill needed and the ease of killing an enemy. Even if the skill needed to kill enemies is high it doesn't matter when killing becomes easy if that threshold is met. Easy, almost without punishment killing of 2 unit types (both ground) is unfair even when you attained the skill for it, because with twice as much skill in a ground unit you cannot achieve near enough the same. Even when said ground unit is hard to master.

That explains a part of the kills, but far from all. Also, the same applies to ESF weapons and almost every other weapon.

One thing though: if a Liberator is burning to death and I shoot it with a Commisioner before it dies, I get the XP and an aircraft kill. So a ton of the would-be suicides would probably be counted towards the weapon that last hit it, counting all the suicides after flak hits as a kill by the flak rather than a suicide.

I count 4 quotes, and I didn't change a single thing in them.

Edit: oh, could be I accidentally used your quote instead of Cipher9

Simple: you turn around, go over the horizon, move around the area, find a spot and height that suits you, fly towards target, attack.

It's a simply stupid scenario. If you know a sniper has seen you, you don't go running over open ground towards him knowing he'll fire at you every step of the way. You hide out, find an alternate route or play the waiting game till he's distracted, then you go.

On all 3 Jawarisin accounts together you don't have more than about 5 hours of playtime. Which actually isn't that much more than the last time I checked when I challenged you to do it. So allow me to tell you that I don't believe a single word of it. Besides that, you tried to tell everyone that "oh yeah you had AA experience" but back than you had barely any burster time (even less than all your Lightnings together) and you hadn't even bought the lock-ons. So let's just say you are lying yet again and keep it at that shall we?

And for any ESF user that meets AP shells, good riddance, you really should stop hovering and use them as aircraft rather than hovering death machines. Oh wait, just risk that AP shell and get more out of it why don't you. And that's just one thing that can OHK you, and not even reliably.

You have said I was misleading people for comparing kills per hour without referring to number of users. You clearly demonstrated you don't know what kills per hour means. It is a metric which isn't directly affected by number of users unless number of users is indicative of something else such as high skill floor. I doubt you had this explanation in mind because saying that Liberator has high skill floor goes against your argument.

You still can't read. I was talking about proportion of good players, not number of good players. If MBTs have 2x as many users then they would need to have 2x as many high skilled players in order to have same proportion of skilled players as Liberator group.

What is so hard to comprehend that MBTs are easier to use than Liberators and thus will attract more average/below average players? If Liberator is OP and easy to use then why does it have less users than MBT?

You can simply add up total kills for every Lib weapon and divide it with total play time.

But I won't be doing this. It takes too much time. If you think this will serve your arguing position then be my guest to do this. Actually you guys should be the ones to do it because you are coming up here with the claim that Lib is OP. Burden of proof is on you, not me.

This is such bull...

You (guys demanding Lib nerfs) were complaining how Liberator is too good at air-to-ground combat. I said that KPH stats show Lib has actually lower score than MBT in vehicle kills and total kills. I acknowledged Liberators have more aircraft kills but that is the only advantage they have.

Now that you can no longer complain about A2G you are backtracking to AKPH as it is your last straw of hope...

There is one thing you are wrong. Libs dont kill more aircraft than Skyguards. It's just that most ppl just bail out of their vehicle so vehicle crashes and Skyguards don't get the score.

I have no problems with my Vanu Skyguard... see my killboard.
When you say that I am not being honest, ... man.,.. that hurts... But seriously, I have had plenty of sessions where two of us cleared the skies... permanently... take two bases before the enemy air came back..
I also often get down to very low health (hence the fire suppression on skyguard, highly recommend it).. while I'm shooting back at the enemy air that is trying to take me out. Mostly, I win.
So your point of MBTs or Harassers having a chance at escaping or shooting back.. I have those chance as well in a Skyguard.

The Skyguard is also the one vehicle where player skills and awareness mistakes are the most unforgiving. If you get caught in the middle of reload while an ESF puts rockets all over you.. oh boy.. in an MBT you can still count on your secondary gunner, you can take more damage.. etc.. in a Skyguard.. you better reload after every burst.. never sit still without having fully reloaded.

Sorry, but I do not see your issues with the Skyguard, it does not need to be buffed, it is not weak in the right circumstances. And it is up to YOU to make sure you put your Skyguard into those perfect circumstances.. it takes practice... probably more than any other class/vehicle...

I keep saying this about tanks, Lightnings / MBTs.. once you have 200 hours in them, and 1,000 kills.. you play them differently than you did in the first 20 hours and the first 100 kills. That's even more emphasized in the Skyguard. here is a video from some German outfit that I just found.. they're having a blast in their Skyguards.. no problems at all:

since this video only had 54 views when I found it, it goes to show that hardly anyone ever tries to learn how to use the skyguard.




They are just a few Skyguards roaming around, they miss a lot and most shoot too early. but they make it work..

Here is another one, short clip from some players meeting the AA threat head on.

The Skyguard is just fine. It just requires a more dedicated and patient play-style, something most players don't want to engage in.

See, that's the difference between me and you apparently, you don't get to take me by surprise. At range, the tankbuster is about as efficient as a magshot on a lightning. But I forgot, you can snipe max up to 600m right. I guess someone who can beat render distance like you would find it trivial to do what no one else can do.

Of course, because if I want to cleanse the air, I'll pull my own aircraft, I'm good enough to do it. Not that I don't use AA turrets if I can. The reason being? I enjoy flying, and chances are I'm a better pilot than just about every ground pounder. And yeah, I never bought AA. The reson being I already had to dump over 10k certs in my liberator. And another 2-4k in my ESF. I got my vanguard certed also.
And to be honest, I've never had a problem with aircrafts farming me. Worst case scenario is I'll shoot at them a bit, and they'll go away.

And I did buy the lock-on though, so you are misinformed on that. It's one of the first things I bought on my NC.

But hey, you can keep feeling entitled. I'm now convinced that you're jealous of people who spent time improving, and lashing back at them is your way of trying to make yourself feel better.

I have done a lot of skyguarding as well. The only places where I can make the sky go clear is when there's only one or two already, and they are "pro" players that simply go to another base. Moving the problem to another base is not the answer, and it's not a deterrent if you simply move the problem to someone else.
And yeah, FS, stealth frame, high speed frame. That's my ticket. Keep moving when attacked. Seriously if you go behind enemy lines solo the ESF will actively attack you rather than flee.

Which is a part of the point: Skyguards are too vulnerable even to the thing they need to kill. Since most hostiles will escape alive it means you need to reload a lot, and every reload and every time you are gunning for one aircraft, another one could be sneaking up on you to make use of that fact.

I'm in the top scoring players with Skyguards the last time I checked, so I know how to use those perfect circumstances. But you do say something interesting. While 99% of the player base, ground and air, tells us that the Skyguard is scrubwork that takes no skill to make no-fly zones, you tell everyone (justly) that it takes skill to use it, to create the perfect circumstance for it to work.

Great teamwork, but the most enemies you see on radar&screen simultaneously is about 4 or 5, empty vehicles included. That against 11 enemies (12 if you count the ammo Sunderer), 10 of them Skyguards. Not even counting the 2-4 aircraft that zoom about in most shots.
These guys are driving behind enemy lines, hunting the few aircraft they can meet with 10 Skyguards, that's not overkill, that's wrong use of materials. The only reason I think they lived a long time, is because they never met anything near a frontline.

That's one of the problems of the Skyguard shown in one video: they scale badly. 1 is ****, 2 is somewhat OK depending on your teamwork and enemy stupidity like flying from the exact same direction constantly, and more starts becoming a bastion of AA. Although I must say that I've seen hordes or aircraft like that which didn't hang about but actually attacked, and then the Skyguards would have lost 3 or 4 of them at the least, if not been dominated. But the aircraft in the video are doing nothing fly across the sky. Some are even just chasing a mozzy over the Skyguards without any notion they are there.

The skyguard is not fine, it needs more skill to use to reduce the bad scaling effect, and then it's accuracy, damage and other factors improved (maybe not even by much) to get a better, more useful vehicle. Then the same needs to happen to other AA systems.

I just showed everyone that you don't even have 5 hours in Lightnings overall. If Dasanfall is to be believed you haven't even bought a Skyguard, let alone use a borrowed one. So the only way you can have used one and never be taken by surprise is in Magic Jawaland. Where everyone pays with Jawa's and Jawarisin is their supreme leader, greatest in every aspect it can be. Jawa's dance around Jawa tree's, sing Jawa Chants and all is exactly as high dictat... the great Jawarisin envisioned it.

You got 6 hours in the Vanguard and you just admit to having no AA and still dare say you've got experience in using Skyguards.

Go back to Jawaland and stay there.

Again, number of users does not indicate skillfloor. And a larger amount of users means you can filter out lucky/bad days and get a clearer picture of how the weapon fares in all types of combat and usages.

Yes, and your point is...? That MBT's somehow don't have that proportion? Just because the movement itself requires some skill doesn't mean that the entire vehicle is more skillful to use. Ground vehicles need to map their terrain much better, see crooks, crannies, friendly and hostile cover, path your own way as well as possible enemies paths from the spawnpoints to see if you can get ambushed. When firing you need a much better view of distance, your own movement speed&direction, enemy movementspeed&direction, bullet drop, possible rough terrain that can mess with your turret etc etc. Aircraft barely have any bullet drop or COF so with most weapons it's just point and click.

Their startup is harder, and if it wasn't for ESF a Liberator would probably be the most used vehicle in the game due to it's immense power, speed and armor compared to MBT's (it's armor is named as in combination with the ability to easily stay out of elevation it takes much more time and shots to down one than with MBT's). But alas, most guys are bad at A2A with Libs and will get killed. Not by AA, by A2A.

You are coming here claiming the Lib is not OP despite that it is. Burden of proof is on you, not me.

Hey! It works perfectly well the other way around! So far, 95% of the time burden of proof was laid on me and I responded, just go look at some other aircraft, tank, or just about any other weapon thread where I participated. So go ahead, find it out yourself.

Me: Shows how I think you think
You: Proves it right by saying it's bull. You do say that you have acknowledged it, but you then say that it's irrelevant despite it being more relevant than anything.
And you haven't used burden of proof have you? Where's your proof that the MBT's have higher KPH&VKPH?

Observations:
-Bad pilots complain that SG is OP, easy mode, both, one causes the other.
-current1y states that SG is not a threat unless there's several of them.
-Ground/generalist players say that SG should be higher skill, but more rewarding. Right now SG scales too well with numbers because it's easy, and does badly because it's actually a bad weapon.

Solution:
-Remove/massively reduce flak radius on SG. If remove, improve velocity/COF.
-Somewhat buff damage against ESF.
-Massively buff damage against lib, gal.
-Reduce Lightning price to 250 resources.
-Buff lightning top armor to reduce aircraft damage by huge amounts from all sides, but not give any protection from other things.
-Nerf other AA weapons. Mainly bursters and walkers. I'm talking serious nerfs. Harasser can just cost 200 resources and walkers have more spread instead of dealing less damage.
-Nerf bus blockade armor. Give it more health instead of more armor, or at least make tank/liberator better at killing them.

Results:
Now you have the most specialized unit in the game becoming the strongest at its job by a huge margin. Anything that can possibly play another role, is free/revivable, more mobile, or otherwise significantly advantaged/generalist gets to do next to nothing.

SG will not be pulled en masse because it's much harder and does just fine on its own. Air will need to rely more on ground units if there's a SG up, but have free reign of no one can spend 250 and take one for the team. And no, more SG will not be the simple solution because flashes/tanks will still rip them up whether there's 1 or 8 of them.

As side bonuses, battlebus won't be as ridiculously broken and lightning can be less bad.

Alright, I laughed like a moron at 2:43 am reading the first paragraphf
I'll actually keep this, it's too beautiful to be lost.

But yeah, a run in a skyguard usually doesn't last more than 30-45 minutes anyways. But there's people to testify. Hell, just go ask ballto, I was in a skyguard with him because he wanted me to try it. Got a bunch of air, killed an enemy viper lightning, harassers and a few infantry. Of course, I got a bunch of assists on other stuff, but that's just what I killed in a 10 minute run from indar ex-> Quartz ridge.

Also, that TR character of mine... was remade about 4 times. So there's probably a few hours in a lightning there.

But the main reason overall is that I don't like lightnings. They are not fun like magriders, they are not strong like mbt, and the worst of it... You can't use them with a friend. But yeah, for all my AA needs, I use the g2a lock-on. That's nanite-free weapon that 2-3 hits ESF. Strong enough for me.

You have no idea how ignorant what you said here made you look.... 2D vs 3D is all I gotta say.

Sounds terrible ...

on ground you have to constantly listen for enemy ESF, Liberators, Tanks .. check the hitmarkers where this damn AV Turrets shot you. So its not like air requires more awareness.

I hear this a lot, but then it's only one guy spending the resources to pull that lib now isn't it?

The two other guys are basically getting free xp and certs.

I hate the lazy argument that just because libs are multi-crew vehicle they deserve to keep their clearly broken position in the game.

Libs being good at taking out ground vehicles is one thing (MBTs are multi-crew to, since we're on the subject of multi-crew getting protection from a painful and well-earned death...) but Libs being able to tank through AA and basically run the place is ridiculous.

There's nothing long range about the skyguard otherwise it'd be lock-on missiles rather than spammy high-spread flak rounds.

It's basically a slightly upscaled default MG you get on most ground vehicles.

Everyone has already made tons of great points regarding the Skyguard's weakness and the Liberator's unwarranted power in the game. The weird thing is it's just a simple fix. Up Skyguard damage against Libs so that the Liberator actually fears to come into it's effective range.

It's so simple. Balance to the force is restored.

This is getting absurd...

Why will some weapon have two times lower number of users? Either it is bad or it has high skill floor. So which is it? If Lib doesn't have high skill floor then it is simply bad compared to MBTs. You just keep contradicting yourself...

Here is what you are saying:
1)Liberator is better than tanks
2)Liberator is as easy to use as tanks are

Then why are people using tanks more than Liberators?
People complain that air game is too hard to get into. I never heard anyone making similar complaint about tanks.

What a joker you are. Few paragraphs above you disagreed that Liberator has higher skillfloor and now you claim it merely has harder "startup"...

No, I'm not trying to enact game changes, you are.

Yes AKPH was irrelevant because you were originally saying that Lib is farming ground units.

No mention of AKPH and A2A issue in your post.

Then I provided stats which show Lib has worse A2G KPH than MBTs. Now you can no longer complain about A2G so you are backtracking to A2A which shows how desperate you are.

We already went through this...
http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/
Compare (Dalton+Tank buster) with (MBT AP+AV secondary) -> doesn't matter if AV secondary is Halberd or empire specific.

Cypher what server are you on?.

There was a guy in January who got the "One man to farm them all" achievement: he scored a 570+ killstreak as Liberator gunner.

But yeah you're right, the problem is not the Liberator, it's because Skyguard users are bad...

In an esf I can chase down falling wreckage while a skyguard can't.

Let's define the word "fine", to discuss this from the same starting point: When I use the word "fine", that means I have no problems getting kills with it, i have no problems chasing enemy air away.. AND I have no problem with the fact that the Skyguard is mainly there to chase away enemy air.. and NOT kill enemy air easily. In that context, the Skyguard is "fine".

I especially like the fact that some weapons/vehicles require a greater amount of skill.. if that keeps weekend Call of Doodoo players away.. great.. thank you very much. If you make a mistake with your Skyguard, you are almost guaranteed to die in it.. quickly..
If you miss your shots, you just told the enemy air where you are and how to get to you.. If you miss a shot as a sniper, you can just cloak and hide.. no problem. The Skyguard requires more time to learn than most anything else in this game, in order to get good at it.. it also requires a ton of certs Max reload and at least 1400 shells , plus the maxed out lightning etc..
It's not made for the majority of players.. and I think that is a good thing.

If the Skyguard were to be made 'easier'.. more damage, faster shells, smaller COF, etc.. then there might be the issue that it could become OP.. NOT because it would be OP, but because too many COD players would start using it, which would fill the skies with led, which would take out far too many pilots.. which would then (rightfully) scream bloody OP murder, ask for nerfs.. and we would end up where we are today.

The Skyguard should pierce Liberator armor like butter, there should not be such high resistance values against skyguard shells,..
the COF could be reduced.. yes, yes indeed.. but even without them, the Skyguard is "fine".
However, the Skyguard is not great. It is far from a powerful weapon platform. If it were any better, too many players would start using it.