A response to all who say that tank mines need changing

Please explain to me how a player can charge at you without pausing to fire their weapon, generally in a straight line (since dodging slows down the kamikaze significantly), and you still cannot kill them. Get a fury on your sunderer. Get a MAX suit. Put down anti-personell mines. Use any class that isn't an infiltrator.

And before you say "They can drop pod in" or something of that ilk - why is your sunderer easily accessible to hot drops? I mean, a group of heavies could just as easily drop in with decimators or C4 and kill your sundy at that point. The issue at hand is specifically tank mines.

Given a little forethought and enough chaos on the field, getting within spitting distance of any stationary piece of armor is simple. Short intervals from cover to cover, diving in and out and minimizing exposure. I'd have to fire my weapon, but getting to within striking distance of a Sundy? Simple. Easy. If I'm on a flash, then it's even simpler.

It's simple math - if your sunderer is behind cover then the engy will have his mines on the ground before you even know he's there, and even if you do then he can still throw them down faster than you can kill him. Again, barring extraordinary luck.

There's a very good reason why the preferred tactic for getting rid of armor in a tech plant or amp station is the suicide engy - because it's cheap, easy, and fast.

You are right about one thing - competence and awareness will increase your chances. But they won't save you.

Do it with C4, not mines. Mines should not activate until it senses a moving vehicle. If you put a mine under a sunderer, how does it know to blow up? With C4 you have to detonate it so are mines just that smart?

They can't be pressure sensitive because the vehicle is stationary, so what is it?

Not enough C4 from one engie can get though my fully upgraded blockade armor. That was the whole reason I got it, no to worry about mines that detonate when it sniffs out an enemy vehicle.

It's moronic that blockade armor would protect you from tanks, C4, esf's liberators and rockets but one engie is more powerful than all of them. This is why they should change the role of mines.

I can think of secure sunderer locations in any facility, with various spots depending where you want to be on the accessibility/safety slider. You give me a name, I'll give you a spot.

If players could successfully run defenselessly at you in a wide open plain with a guaranteed kill once they get within melee range, shotguns would be the most game-breaking piece of equipment in Planetside 2. As it is, hacksaw maxes and their ilk incite rage about 90% of the time in bio labs. Sunderers do not park in bio labs.

tl;dr: "My sunderer is super invincible, but it has a weakness. SOE, please nerf its main weakness."

I never said anything about defensless in a wide and open plain. If anything, I think it's one of the the few places where it's quite impossible to suicide rush a tank. Well, barring them rushing up in a lightning...

It's the places where there are nooks and crannies, draws and files, that are an engineer's dream...

Well Im still using blockade and I don't have problem with mines. If I do park my sunderer near to action where enemy engineers can get easily, it's my responsibility to keep it safe. Good example of this is from yesterday, we (vanu) were attacking crossroads and I deployed my sunderer behind B. There I sit in bulldog and got tons of XP while killing a few tanks. I however got bored and left to do some fighting. After about 5 min my sundy was gone. I do not know that was it detroyed by mine or C4 but I do know that choice to leave my sundy there, just as refusal to use mineguard, was my call , and therefore I can only accept that it got destroyed.

Everything that takes time to destroy vehicle, can be fired from distance. Mine can not be, they are not really comparable.

True but it could be stated at least once. Too many conversation on these forums is about one side stating their "facts" and another side stating theirs. This doesn't lead to anywhere and kills constructive discussion. Im not saying that you do this, just that it's very commonly seen here.

Nice story but what does that have to do with mines being used as a defensive role only? My point is the devs most likely didn't think mines would be used that way or this way...

It's call and exploit.

What's done on the video is exploiting and clearly not working as intended. Mines in otheer hand are. They changed mines onces by adding minimiun distance between two mine but changed it very quicly back. So I do think they know exactly how they are used.

They are PROXIMITY mines, they are both offensive when placed near a vehicle & defensive when used as area denial. The DEVS clearly labeled them as PROXIMITY mines and not PRESSURE sensitive mines. Therefore, I conclude the dev's knew exactly how they wanted them to be used, they called them proximity mines and they operate exactly that way, so they are working completely as intended.

In this game, and nearly every other game I can think of every weapon or skill as a counter. GUESS WHAT? Mines have a counter.

In this game, every player can protect their Sunderer from Anti-Vehicle PROXIMITY mines, in numerous ways.
1. For 30 certs, they can negate the ability of single engineer with a 100 cert weapon(+150 resource cost/use) to destroy their sunderer.
2. For an additional 50 certs, they can completely negate the ability of a single engineer with an upgraded 300 cert weapon, which has a 225 resource cost/use, to destroy their sunderer.
3. They can also actively defend their sunderer from one of the turrets, in conjunction with Anti-Personel mines and by placing it in less obvious locations.

I will challenge any of you who think mines are so OP that any Solo Engineer can destroy a sunderer to try and kill mine. I will have you all crying in these forums how OP mine guard is that your 300 cert weapon, can barely scratch my sunderer and you died every time you tried, and all 3 mines didn't even take my sunderer to half health...

LEARN TO PLAY!!!

Mines are fine and have many counters.
Lets hope a game mechanic change is not one of them.
I vote no change to mines.

Still isn't real life, and even in real life ppl went kamikaze with mines on a freaking stick, DEAL with it.

Sorry for the length, but this is a issue some people just can't understand. I have to be explicit so it's all clear. There is no tl;dr, sorry.

Realism isn't a goal, authenticity is. Every game element must be logical in it's name and placement. The offensive use of tank mines isn't consistent with the way a new player would expect them to be used.

But that's a minor issue, really. Just change the name to "Anti-armor drone" or something.

No amount of teamwork can overcome a stack of tankmines. True, there are counters - infantry scouting ahead by foot, using thermal optics or mineguard.

However this does not address the main issue - minefields are currently an offensive weapon, not a defensive one. The goal of a minefield isn't to be an opportunistic mantrap that kills one vehicle and permits the rest to pass, but to create a barrier and slow down an assault, perfect for ambushing an armored convoy. Imagine an ambush at the Quartz Ridge canyon leading up to hvar..

The way I see minefields should be used is:

1. Vehicle drives into minefield, detonates one mine
2. Engineer uses AV turret to finish off vehicle, or teammate shoots a rocket. Or any other light AV weapon.
3. Vehicle panics and runs straight into a second mine, killing it (or just gets destroyed by the missile)

Currently engineers stack mines to form what's essentially a supermine. It doesn't generally halt incoming assaults, as you can only carry around so many mines, and they aren't very powerful alone.

I'd rather see the mines damage increased along with the amount of mines carried, but with a proximity check so that two mines cannot be placed too close together, to prevent instagibs. The increased damage and load capacity should compensate somewhat for the lack of a cheap instakill capability.

Kamikaze engineers are NOT the problem. Engineers already have a viable weapon to instagib sunderers, and it's C4. It's more expensive, takes longer to plant and is actually balanced in terms of blowing up vehicles - 100 infantry resources, 2 blocks set a sundie on fire - a kill if nobody rushes in to repair - and an instagib with three.

Placing C4 and detonating it takes more time however, and if the engineer is shot prematurely the C4 will not autodestruct. It's not a matter of engies being ABLE to instagib sundies, it's a matter of the wrong tool being used.

Tank mines render C4 redundant, as they currently function like a superior version of it, without it's drawbacks, with all it's advantages. It's a C4 that you don't have to manually detonate, is quick to place, is cheap, destroys sunderers in 2 mines.

Players are quick to use exploits and loopholes in game mechanics and using tank-mines offensively is just an example of that. It's a badly thought-out mechanic, that's all.

If anything, they do too little to be a viable defensive weapon. A single tank mine should put a non-mineguarded vehicle into critical, so the driver has to get out and repair, at which point teammates have to provide cover for the engineer, who's now sniper bait and his vehicle is ripe for a rocket.

Mine guard for tanks should be divided into:
1 - One mine no longer puts vehicle in critical
2 - Slightly more resistance
3 - Two mines no longer kill, but put vehicle into very critical (5-8 seconds to destruction)

I don't like it either. You shouldn't die to tank mines when you're static. 2 blocks of C4 are the tool for the job. What you should be able to do with tank mines however is place 6 mines around the vehicle and once it undeploys, it drives over one, panics and kills itself on the next one.

Correct, which is why HEAT and HE got hit with the nerfbat. Next GU will tell us exactly how badly.

Back in beta there was this fun exploit where reequipping a light assault with adrenaline booster increased your runspeed to ludicrous levels - you could run faster than a reaver with afterburner (and you would also instagib when you'd trip over a rock).

I argued it's a valid, fun mechanic and was angry to see it go, but it was just a bug. Just as the current tank mine mechanic is.

I'll go real slow-like, Elite, so y'alls can understand. (Sorry, I'm just making a half-joke about this. Read on. I'll make counterarguments.)

Fair? Yeah. Still, I find it impossible to believe that someone can make a point about tank mines solely based on names. I had a post joking that they could be called doritos and it wouldn't matter. But thank you for being reasonable and answering your own point.

And herein lies the problem - you appear to have a fundamental disagreement about the purpose of mines. That's okay, but it's my opinion that the only way to compellingly argue for mines being removed is to give concrete evidence that they need to be changed or the game will be broken. At the moment, mines being offensive versus defensive isn't really a huge, mind-altering change.

In addition, mines placed in a preemptive location are a defensive tool. Whether or not they instagib tanks is irrelevant - they're still being placed in advance, hoping to deny area access to vehicles.

Finally, in terms of defensive abilities - mines already ARE placed in field formation. And if a tank runs over one, two or three engineers CAN finish a tank off with rockets. But let's be real... when does this ever happen? Teamwork is surprisingly rare unless it's absolutely necessary in this game. Organized groups like outfits would be wasting their time by guarding a single minefield, and you'd be wrong if you expected the zerg to figure out a complex chore like this on their own. That said, defensive mines work as they are (Minus the bit where they fall below the floor and become invisible. That's stupid and requires fixing. But you don't balance around a bug, you squish it.) because though they can be more limited by area, they are buffed in terms of damage - at least compared to a minefield of the kind you described. This goes back to my first point, that a change between these two ideas is really a matter of opinion.

I've spent 700 certs on my light assault to kill both hack-MAXes and mineguard sundies, and I've regretted nothing. Tank mines are easier, but don't provide a significant advantage. I use them because they cost fewer infantry resources and on Helios the VS is dumb and outnumbered and usually owns very little of the map.

Mines are not a superior version of C4. C4 has anti-infantry capabilities far beyond tank mines. Hell, it's better than AP mines too.

Do you realize how much this would break tank mines? A single tank, heavy, or engineer could COMPLETELY wreck a line of tanks when paired with another engie.

Once it undeploys the facility has already been lost. Your paragraph is a matter of opinion anyways.

Glad we agree.

It's not a bug, devs have clearly given mines attention. They might not be working as people who see the word "Mine" want them to be, but they are working as newly intended (minus bugs such as reaver carrying them, mines disappearing.).

"Learn to Play" Exactly! The thyme I constantly see throughout most of the "Nerf This" complaints on these forums is 1v1 senarios used to demonstrate something is OP. My Tank got killed by Air, Nerf Air! My Air got killed by AA, Nerf AA! My Max got killed by a Max, Nerf the other guys Max!

When I see these complaints I always ask myself I wonder where was the rest of the "Team" during the encounter they're trying to use as proof of a "Nerf" needed? As I see it, PS2 is a "Team" game requiring "Teamwork", which means doing things like Providing Cover, Scouting Out Enemy Strength and Location, Spotting and Calling out Immediate Threats to Teammates, and on and on...

Mines are just fine the way they are, it's Teamwork that needs a HUGE Buff in PS2! Here's a Teamwork example for those that are having a hard time understanding the benefits of it. I was in an Armored Convoy on Indar, of course, we were lined up on the narrow passage out of Quartz Ridge and were just coming up on the top of the hill, Boom! First Tank hits a Landmine, but survives (someone knows how to cert their armor). Wisely, our Squad lead gives the command for all nearby Infantry and Vehicles to shoot up the road in front of the First Tank. Boom! Boom! Boom! Boom! etc. etc. We set off something like 10 mines!

Yeah Mines are just fine! not only "Learn to Play" but Learn to TEAM Play!

Whether they instagib is indeed irrelevant in the short run, what matters is:
Now that the mine has detonated, should my tank column stop or can it move forward?

If the column can move forward, then we've failed at creating a defensive weapon and failed at creating a new mechanic. It could have been a reaver, an orbital strike, a random disconnect that put that tank out of use - it makes no difference. If that's the way tank mines are used, we aren't introducing a new gameplay mechanic and not adding to the depth of gameplay and tactics. Sure, you get a kill, but if you think about it, a single engie placing a stack of mines is no different to a time-delayed super rocket launcher in terms of the effects it has on the larger picture of gameplay.

I don't want that. Mines have the potential to add a natural, organic gameplay mechanic that adds considerable tactical depth while at the same time being instantly familiar to players - without increasing the already steep learning curve.

When I open up Eve and see a skill called "Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration" I have no bloody clue what that means, but if I hear "tank mines" and "minefield" I instantly know how they work. Not the damage values perhaps, but experience will fix that.

Everybody is complaining, rightfully so, that PS2 has little "metagame" and depth. This depth is added by systems like this. I see the potential for mines to form a far more interesting and multifaceted system than just another offensive AV weapon. It's kind of like seeing your dad playing Javascript-based tetris and writing documents in Notepad on a 4000$ machine.
I hate Javascript and it's not a real language anyway.

Hold on there. Yes, teamwork is weak right now. Back up a bit.

There's this thing called effort to power ratio. Teamwork, for most people, requires a LOT of effort. So in terms of effort to power effective lone-wolf solutions are still a better "investment" than teamwork. The way you fix this is adjust the mechanics so that the effects of teamwork are worth the effort, and not synthetically - eg. "you need to have a full platoon to use orbital strike" but organically, by making those emergent, flexible strategies viable. DOTA does this well by having the abilities of various characters naturally augment and compliment each other. And as a result, teamwork emerges.

In order for minefields to be viable for the common zerg we're missing 3 components:

1) A lattice-like system where the flow of battle is more structured and finite. And you've seen the new small hex maps, it's coming.

2) Better map tools that allow the players to see where the enemy zerg is and where it's heading, allowing for two-way interaction, reacting to enemy movements, not just to the effects of enemy activity (basecaps)

3) A system to structure the gameplay - the mission system. And it's coming as well.

Son, don't you be lecturing me 'bout C4, I've got a gold medal for it, and that's just counting the magriders I sent to the big great.. alien monster thingamajig in the sky, or whatever it is the vanus believe in nowadays.

But seriously, easier makes all the difference. Two blocks of C4 is technically enough to blow up a sundie, but it requires skill or teamwork, or a particularly bad enemy team to pull off. Three blocks on the other hand requires ample time. Those few seconds do make a difference - and this is reflected by the recent bumrush on tankmines. Even though C4 should the the de facto tool for the job, all the complaints are about tankmines. All the montages are using tankmines. You may say that C4 is equivalent, or even better, but my gameplay experience, as well as the loud complaints on the forums are showing that tankmines are the problem, not C4.

More importantly this is bad design. Tankmines for engineers currently render C4 redundant, displacing it as the offensive anti-vehicle weapon.

It's as if the devs changed the pistols to have no bullet drop and high velocity, since they have no scopes. Next thing pistols are used instead of sniper rifles by players with good mice and high resolution screens.

They're working as intended from the coder's (low-level) perspective. They detonate when there's an enemy vehicle above. They sometimes disappear, that's a bug. They don't crash the game. In that, and only that respect they're working properly. From the game design perspective their current usage, the majority of the time, is abusing game mechanics in a way that grants lots of power

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for emergent gameplay and combining items/mechanics in interesting new ways. I do think this is the result of bad design and the offensive anti-vehicle weapon should be the C4, not tank mines.

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Another long essay, too bad this isn't reddit and the devs probably won't see this thread.

Why not just prevent anyone from putting a tank mines less that two meters away from another tank mine, similar to ammo packs. And then make it so tat triggering one mine and being in the outer radius of the next one doesn't quite one hit kill you.
Engys would still be able to kill a sundy / camping armor if they have time with two mines, still be able to kill them if they rush blindly.
However both driving cautiously and protecting your sunderer would be rewarded. Nerfing the damage directly is a bit too much IMO.

(In addition to that they would also make every other land mine NOT be invisible but that is just an occasional graphic bug)

The thing about using mines as a deterrent is that while in real life when a tank hits a mine, people die and million dollar equipment breaks. In Planetside 2 when a tank hits a mine, tank goes boom but comes back in 15 minutes while the drivers come back after 7 seconds. If the tank happens to have mineguard, then the driver pops out for 20 seconds to reap the certs. Considering how zerg vs zerg fights take +30 minutes a 20 second delay isn't going to help much.

Also with minefields, all you have to do is have a lightning go up ahead and shoot at the ground.

The mines just don't fit into the game. Planetside 2 is a fairly slow game that features a more reactive gameplay. The enemy sabotages your generator, you fix it. The enemy starts capturing the base, you stop them. The enemy attacks you, and you respond.

This situation is the only one in the game where you absolutely have to be on constant lookout for the snake in the grass or you will lose an extremely important logistical asset without the chance to react.

this has got to be a troll