A note to the devs regarding this last patch

On Reddit (you know, that site where devs really read and answer stuff) a long thread months ago highlighted how the problem was not ESF weapons, but the fact with 200 certs they became able to spot infantry from long distance without any counter. On the other hand Stealth makes aircraft uspottable and once again this has no counter. And btw since when Engagement Radar is built in EVERY SINGLE PILOT runs Stealth.

You talk about awareness? When ESF can fly on small fights completely unspottable but can instead highlight every single target? Seriously? :|

Could they fix this in other ways? Sure. Why didn't they do that? We should ask the mighty Wrel. I assume they just took the fastest way.

Thank you all for your replies, you all make some great points.

In regards to the Thermal Optics on ESF, it wasn't a matter of farming infantry so much as it was identifying infantry threats. Cover is always a hard counter against ESF thermal, lock-ons, rocklets, MAX Bursters, AA towers, Skyguards and firearms are a hard counter to ESFs. I spent nanites on my ESF, you didn't spend any Nanites pulling your infantry, therefore my ESF should have an advantage to your infantry. There are people who play infantry exclusively who I'm sure are completely happy with all these vehicle nerfs, but as a infantry I've never had a problem dispatching a vehicle whom I really wanted to kill.

In regards to the Infiltrators, just because they're not the most played character doesn't mean they aren't everywhere and highly annoying. There's always at least 2 covering every outdoor vehicle terminal, with thermal I could spot them when they decloaked and remove this nuisance but now it's no longer possible. Also you can't play any other infantry class and sight your gun without an infiltrator decloaking and knifing you. Every tower is also infested with at least 2 or 3 stalker cloak infils which have to be hunted down and exterminated before you can safely pull a vehicle. It's not necessarily a "fun" mechanic for a Battlefield type game, it's more lame and annoying, it's basically a troll class.

Ultimately, what I am telling the Devs is that I am unhappy with many of the choices they've made in the past and this recent patch is the straw that broke the camel's back and I will no longer be a paying customer as a result.

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Agreed.

seconded, also unsubbed on account of this. If the sentiment on reddit was Stealth ESF with thermal spotting infantry that cant see them, then why not nerf the stealth - SO WE CAN SEE EACHOTHER - instead of essentially giving infantry a free infiltrator cloak vis-a-vis an ESF running thermals.

Besides this, they are fixing a problem they created by breaking the game further. I NEVER wanted automatic engagement radar, the devs did (off memory to prevent solo pilots from wading into battles/make more engaging airplay!?). As such I never even dreamed of using stealth as it seems like cheating, while I still had to deal with being showered from god knows where by all the other pilots using stealth. Now because stealth is being used by so many pilots to re-balance the 'new' airplay dynamics the devs caused, ground units are complaining because they cant see all the stealth scythes/mossies/reavers overhead. The obvious fix wasnt to get rid of artifically forcing the airgame to change, why do that when you can nerf Thermal vision.

And please dont rename it threat-detection optics, the biggest threat to me has ALWAYS been lock-ons and burster Maxes from the ground, the new threat-obfuscation optics DO NOT DETECT these threats

I have also Unsubbed for the time being.

Me three.

I don't think any of them realize how many people will likely just quit over this. It's that gamebreaking. Infantry are hard as **** to see in this game, both because they have a significantly shorter render distance than vehicles + aircraft, the available camos+faction color schemes (VS at night), and the simple fact that from the sky a humanoid figure is in fact very small. IR scopes were the only counter to these advantages. It's literally the exact reason thermal vision was outfitted to military aircraft, yet apparently these new braindead "devs" know better.

I've been tired of these uppity devs' (*cough* Wrel) smug arbitrary painting over the game with a broad nerf-brush for some time now, but this time they've crossed the line. Examples must be made.

Wrel isn't half as smart as he thinks he is, is biased towards infantry, and clueless at flying.

At least S.O.E. had devs who actually appreciated vehicle gameplay and knew how to design around it, you know, the Planetside way.

This new **** they are pushing onto us is more or less just a glorified C.O.D. MMO.

No thanks.

If I wanted to pay to play an infantry-centric game I'd just play something else that's better and isn't coded in DX9 with absurd performance bottlenecks.

I can't understand how you fail to see it's a ******* terrible business model. Happy customers spend more money, offer repeat business and tell their friends to spend their money.

It's kind of like buying brake pads at a brake shop with an extended warranty. Only the next time you bring your car in they tell you the brakes you had aren't available any more. They were too expensive to continue using because of the much higher quality abrasives.

Since they worked for you while you had them, ( you didn't get in any accidents,) and you agreed when you purchased the warranty that if those pads were no longer available you would have to use the replacement (EULA).

But, but, those aren't the pads I want, those aren't the pads I paid for! Sorry pal, yeah, it's a **** sandwhich and you have to eat it.

Well screw you buddy, never again. I'm taking my car to another shop. Telling my friends to take all their cars to another shop and that's it.

That's a far better analogy.

It's really hard to find a good analogy for this situation, mostly because you don't see this level of stupid in real life, now THATS troubling.

1. Every single pilot runs stealth because of how far engagement radar goes, neither NAR or comp armor provide more benefits than not getting seen by other unaware ESFs at 600 meters. It's not that all ESFs want to screw over infantry, it's there is LITERALLY not a better option.
2. You mean to tell me you can't hear ESFs from 300 meters out? Or not see them from render distance which is 1k meters? Awareness is not JUST seeing things, it's also LISTENING and being prepared for the next angle. I think I've mentioned the last time I was killed by any sort of AI vehicle was over a 10 days ago and I play every single day, this CAN BE AVOIDED, people simply choose not to or not try to learn to.
3. It's not my fault the made stealth even more viable with engagement radar but this proves devs do not know vehicles.

That's exactly the truth, I had a whole group of people from other games I had finally convinced to join me and my brother here, they would have been paying customers as well, but I am no longer pushing that agenda.

All in all from my perspective they've probably lost 4 or 5 paying customers thanks to this nerf.

I stopped at 'you've ruined ESFs' because they only thing they 'ruined' was easy A2G infantry farming in which ESFs already have EVERY advantage (including the semi recently added auto repairing) so if this patch makes just 1 more G2A baby throw a tantrum and quit, it was totally worth it!

Hornets were the only viable option for armor in real fights. Aircraft are officially meaningless in large battles and now have to prey on the helpless in small fights. It might be too difficult for you to grasp if you only run around on foot in a zerg, but the game just got much worse as a whole. Without it's combined arms nature, this game has literally nothing to offer over it's competitors.

Only negative in this patch was the none refund of the thermal certs.

All changes were needed / good!

Shotties still working fine and now feel more like actual shotties, ES heavy weapons changes are very interesting and working quite well (maybe JH a lil OP now?), A2G FINALLY got a much needed and long awaited balance!

All good stuff.

Problem we see is people simply cannot abide change and will spin, irrationally, to a negative standpoint the second the thing the love is touched in any way.

Uninstalled, tfw you save your screenshots folder for sentimental reasons and reminisce

AHAHAHAHAAHHA, I had a good laugh, really. Laughingdead is right, when you try to change something you don't understand too well, you just end up creating more problems.

Take a look at this post and the comments.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/4ro4gv/dbg_be_like_ツ_we_tried/

Remember the ****show that was coyotes for months after the Air patch? People warned them about that, they didn't listen. Then they had to "balance" the coyotes again. I remember most the pilot I talked to back then didn't want default engagement; DBG still pushed that through. Well guess what every pilot and their mother is running as a default now. Guess how useful defualt radar is to a new pilot when every one is running stealth?

Well here is my prediction on patch, base on what I'm knowledgable on.

1.Hornet got ****** when they should have only nerf the AI aspect of it, guess what the other option is now(hint:its really good at killing infantry more then it is at AV). So learn to spread those asscheeks a bit wider if you're playing infantry.

2.Thermal was nice to have, but removing it won't stop A2G from farming, all it does is make their job a bit harder. I pity the ground AI weapon since its a contradiction to itself now(an AI weapon that can't see infantry, lol what?). Don't know why they won't give a refund, even if its just for the AI gun like the LPPA or fury.

Changes were on PTS for a whopping 1 week and they still pushed it through. I said it 6months ago on redditside, I'll say it again here, "Personal theory, infantryside dev or one that doesn't play the game decide to push balance [sic] through after flying(playing) for 5 minute".

Dear sir, it's you who understands nothing.
By signing the EULA you're saying you won't sue Daybreak for changing the game, you definitely aren't saying you won't disagree with something or discuss it on forums. Are you even from this planet?

One major complication these changes make to ESFs, is it blinds them to Infantry AA. With the nerf to Hornets (worse AV), the change the Thermal, and the pre-existing boosted damage resistance for some Vehicles vs. ESF, the ESF now is struggling to operate safely or to engage effectively any non-Air target outside of a safe region. Which makes it a ? in terms of its role in combined arms.

The invisible Infantry compromises steps 3-6 far below (see at bottom: "Pre-Change Method Of Operating"). It makes it so that the ESF cannot assess the make-up, position, and changes to enemy Infantry positions. And the ESF as a glass cannon becomes blindly much more open to random great risks of death in routine A2G operations.

Also, before the ESF could pinpoint each ground Infantry AA (Burster or HA Lockon) and either avoid (via breaking line-of-sight to them on approaches to the general area) or attempt to engage them directly. Now that does not seem as viable (pilots can still try to use Tracer visual for direction clues, but it's limited), and ground AA is an entrenched, variable (unlike Vehicles, Infantry can suddenly appear anywhere), and unknown (and unknowable over time) level of danger.

Skyguard already made engaging Lightnings a problem because the visible distinction of a Skyguard vs. non-Skyguard Lightning to ESFs is ambiguous. So it became often unsafe to approach a lightning unless in a very safe and specific situation. Now Infantry has moved into that arena as well. I did a post-nerf run only to find out that I was moving in on a Burster that I had no idea was even there. It would be a huge impact for ESF usability if MAXs at least were changed to showed up in Thermal (this has been mentioned in another thread as well).

It might be that A2G ESFs need to start running Scout Radar to be able to operate better in A2G with some awareness of Infantry. But this means no Fire Suppression, which is death sentence for ESF (both in A2G and A2A) in any major exchange and vs. ESF A2A (which is an omnipresent and routine threat on the battlefield).

And they also nerfed the AV ability of the ESF with Hornet Nerf. This severely limits what targets ESF can viably engage, in addition to the operation engagements it can operate within covered above. Hornets were mostly MBT killers with Infantry killing potential. Rocket Pods could kill MBTs, but not as effectively.

With the nerf to Hornets (worse AV), the change the Thermal (Infantry blindness), and the pre-existing boosted damage resistance for some Vehicles vs. ESF, the ESF now is struggling to operate safely or to engage effectively any non-Air target outside of a safe region. AND it becomes even more vulnerable to most its counters: A2A, Ground AA, etc. Its ability to operate is compromised, its ability to survive is compromised, and its role as a reliable/effective unit counter is compromised. Much less reason for it in the game or to pull it.

It's still early and I have not played a lot with ESF and the new changes. So maybe all this is wrong and there are other methods or loadouts that provide better stuff. But right you're looking at a game with units balanced vs. the old ESF, and a new ESF that is more toothless and vulberable.

I also think this makes the need to perma-Air Radar over ally regions all the more important. To safeguard against A2A Gank Squads and Aces just cherry picking now weakened/over-distracted A2G ESFs.

Also, I am wondering if Harasser is having similar problems with being able to accurately assess Infantry concentrations, because I know AI Harassers have to do careful work in controlling their overextension into enemy Inafntry areas.

Pre-Change Method Of Operating
========================
The pre-change method of operating an ESF in an area, was:
1) fly at a very far distance looking for enemy Air position (this is done almost constantly when flying ESFs)
2) fly at a pretty far distance looking for Vehicle clusters which mean enemy ground Zergs concentrations (no fly areas)
3) fly decently far distance with naked eye scan for spread out enemy Vehicles (potential big threat or possible future targets) and Infantry clustesr (potential bit threat)
4) closer distance flyby (not an attack run, just a quick dip through the area) with Thermal to assess Infantry battlefield enemy factors (position, density, flow, etc.), with careful entry/exit route to maximize break of line-of-sight ready, speed for faster exit, and Fire Suppression as needed
5) begin attacks: work out approach and exit routes (using line-of-sight breaks, approaches from ally side, etc.) and do attack runs if dangerous, OR Hover and engage at will if engagement is safe
6) keep an active awareness of how enemy population is changing in the area, how nearby enemy zergs are changing their position toward you, and if the positioning and type of enemy forces on the ground Changes. You don't want to overexpose yourself in a slow attack run only to find out that enemy presence has doubled, that enemy forces have spread out and now compromise your exit route, or that enemy AA/Air/etc. has moved in and it is now a death trap.

Reddit is a wellspring of developing truly awful ideas. It is a natural bane to the constructive process. It is sad to hear that some trashspawn idea managed to crawl its way out from the putrid Reddit depths and make it into the game. For shame.

FYI, almost every better pilot ran Stealth *before* Engagement Radar was made default. Just as almost every better pilot runs Fire Suppression.

I DO consider both of these Cert Monopolies to be major problems (and a major problem in the entire game). But they are not new problems, and the Engagement Radar just skewed an already existing problem further.

Do you really have a hard time spotting ESFs?

I fly ESFs and I do lots of AA work with HA Lockon. I rarely have a hard time spotting ESFs. Outside Hossin (and I don't play there), there isn't much to hide an ESF in the Air unless they are low or behind something. And if they are low, they are highly vulnerable outside very safe engagements.

I find Wrel and the DBG designers (1) disastrously biased (in regards to the game's revenue model's core demographic), (2) closed minded/blind, (3) heavily lacking in awareness of the game state, (4) heavily lacking in ability to conceptualize adjustments in complicated systems, and (5) heavily lacking in prowess to adjust complicated systems.

I have no faith in Wrel or other PS2 Designers in terms of adjusting gameplay to proactively resolve this (and the game in general) for the average player, especially in the long run:
1) they have continued to show bias against the average player groups affected
2) they have continued to make changes that push the game to be less for the average player
3) they have continued to show stubborn, blind dismissal of ideas not coming from "whoever has control over the decision" sources
4) they have continued to show a lack of ability to comprehend, understand, or prowess to adjust the interrelated systems of gameplay

I worked at Sigil for a year. It was an SOE spinoff. It had the SOE/DBG culture. Some current DBG guys were there. They suffered from all these same problems I list above. It's a culture thing there. I was *working* at the company, with access to them every day, I hung out and talked with them, and I couldn't make a dent in their bias or various bad gameplay system plans. I live in SD and know enough people, I could probably setup a lunch or talk to some PS2 Devs if I wanted to. I don't. I am *glad* the Devs are not on these forums. They are a wall through which average player support and better ideas will not permeate.

However, DBG/SOE/Sigil *will* listen to massive player outcry. They did so when I as at Sigil, they have done it with PS2. And they will even get wind of it from these forums. It just has to be very strong, a consistent message, over a long enough period of time, etc.

So yes, if you don't like something, complain on these forums. And get others to join you. Loud, often, and with the same directed message.

And I also consistently despise Reddit. Because it fuels bad ideas and actions. It is a compromised thought arena. It's output is driven by a setup that pushes out decision-by-popularity and buries both constructive thought and the constructive process. It bolsters fanboys, it blinds Devs to good judgement with unconditional adulation and yes-feedback from cool-kid-club-membership-seeking yes men/boys/girls/etc. It puts the idea of thought development squarely at the level of (and within the process of) kid school clique politics.

Easily one of the the most cogent synopsis on the issue, unfortunately I dont think the changes were made with a prime directive of combined arms at parity in mind. In fact, in the interest of increased infantry salience a willfull imbalance might be deemed acceptable collateral damage.

I've played for about 4 hours since the patch, and the net effect is that air is FAR less effective and more exposed in any battle of consequence. I prefer to play half of my PS2 game in vehicles and the other half on foot, I refuse to play the game as a pure infantry title.

Very good point on the combined arms not being a major focus for Devs. But much like you, I feel combined arms is one of the key things that makes the game shine.

To be fair, I know losing A2G ESF will not direcyly, negatively affect a lot of people because they never flew them. Years of brutally exclusive access to ESF from the Designer level have seen to that. But I think losing units and classes, weapons and certlines in general, makes the game dumbed down overall (in a bad way).

And the the game continuing down it's road of narrowing to a handful or dominant Classes and dominant Units, butting heads along a Lattice-on-rails tight rope is abhorrent to me. I would hate to have the PS2 Standard Game reduced to a stunted, by-the-numbers meta like Server Smash is.