[Suggestion] A HA players perspective on why HA is broken

Discussion in 'Heavy Assault' started by SW0V, Aug 26, 2015.

  1. SW0V

    Currently, the HA is the most played class in the game, and not by a little, it's by a lot and every alert is dominated by LMG kills above all else.

    As someone who's played primarily online FPS games for ~20 years my opinion is going to be a little more tempered than "Heavy is OP, nerf please".

    Many people are making the argument that the problem with the HA class is its overshield. I don't believe that this is true. The HA is supposed to be a bullet sponge. It can't heal like the medic, it can't hide like the infil, it doesn't have the mobility of an LA and it's not a support class like the engineer.

    In my eyes, the problem is that LMGs, Carbines and ARs all handle far too similarly. As someone who mains TR, let me give you a TR example:

    The Trac-5 v. T9-Carv v. T1 Cycler.

    Damage profiles:

    RoF: LMG=Crbine=AR
    Damage at 10m: LMG=Carbine=AR
    Damage at 65m: LMG>Carbine=AR

    Controllablity:

    Bloom: LMG=Carbine=AR
    FSRM: LMG>Carbine>AR
    vRecoil: AR>Carbine>LMG
    Bullet velocity: LMG>Carbine>AR
    Recoil decrease: Carbine=AR>LMG

    Uncontrollable aspects:

    ADS CoF: LMG=Carbine=AR
    Hip CoF: Carbine>AR>LMG
    Tolerance: AS=Carbine>LMG

    So, there are some glaringly obvious problems here.
    1. LMGs have the same raw DPS as carbines and ARs inside 10m
    2. LMGs have the same bloom as carbines and ARs
    3. LMGs have less FSRM than carbines and ARs
    4. LMGs have pretty much the same ADS CoF as Carbines and ARs

    The above 4 things should not be true and are not true in any other FPS I've ever played, and yet they are in PS2.

    There is currently no such thing as infantry suppression fire in PS2 except from lashers because HA don't actually have LMGs. They just have re-skinned ARs.

    In every other shooter I've played, LMGs are slow firing, heavy hitting, low accuracy weapons (except when completely immobile).

    How would I change LMGs to better balance class usage and add gameplay diversity?

    Significantly increase ADS moving CoF. Currently it stands at 0.4 whilst carbines/ARs sit at 0.3. This is not a significant difference.
    Significantly increase FSRM. It should be higher than carbines and ARs.
    Decrease RoF but increase the range of their max damage to 20-25m.
    Significantly increase bloom and vRecoil (especially with the RoF reduction) but reduce tolerance.

    Along with these changes, significantly increase the damage absorbed by the overshield to prevent the current mentality of HAs which is "AD spam to dodge the snipers!"

    What is the desired goal of these changes?

    Transfer the assault roles to the combat medic and LA. In my eyes, these two classes are the ones that should be 'assaulting' locations and not the class with LMGs :confused:.
    Give the HA a new role of suppression and meat shield. If they want to 1v1 people, they should have to be completely immobile for their LMGs to have any kind of accuracy but they should have enough EHP to be competitive against other infantry classes even if they get jumped.

    I would love to hear other people's thought on this topic, because honestly as a HA player, to me it's beyond absurd that there's only really one infantry option for breaching a room (which is 90% of the game). I want to play the medic, I want to play the engineer, I want to play the LA but I know that for infantry gameplay, these classes are just plain worse than the HA.

    I know this would be a lot of balancing but I feel that this is the biggest problem in the game that effects everyone.

    But let it be known, if you make a post saying "HA is fine" and you main HA. I will publicly shame you.

    If you think your KD is due to skill, you are wrong. If you think engineers are only there to supply you, medics are only there to heal you, infils are only there to give you map awareness and LA's are only there to feed you, then you are right and that's not good gameplay balance. At least not in my eyes!
    • Up x 2
  2. nehylen

    Some nitpicking: you're comparing FSRM and not first shot recoil, which you're not alone to do, but doesn't make much sense.
    For reference, and from memory, T1 Cycler has 0.66 1st shot recoil, Trac5 has 0.7, and Carv 0.82.
    Generally LMGs have higher vertical recoil, hence the lower multiplier, though in essence you might not be wrong about them not having enough 1st shot recoil. I don't believe it's that necessary though..

    I think along your line as far as ADS CoF is concerned, which is why i was somewhat surprised that the hypothetical LMG patch might actually worsen the situation (with more 0.35 ads CoF guns, and SAW at 0.4).
    I do believe 0.5, SAW's, should be the standard value, with possibly 0.4 or 0.45 for a few select LMGs (mostly current 0.35 ones + Pulsar LSW and probably - Anchor).
    On bloom, i don't know if that's the best route to go. I'd possibly go the opposite way (less bloom per shot than AR/carbines), to incite for longer bursts, which in turn would result in horizontal tolerance being more significant a parameter; and give some more meaning to those larger mags, rather than just being ARs++.

    Finally tolerance is a bit tricky: it's already medium/high on a lot of LMGs, with only few exceptions: Bull, Anchor, MSW-R, GD-22s. Also it will result in widening the gap between better players and others, because bursting, which could be alleviated with bloom as i mentioned above.
    • Up x 1
  3. Eternaloptimist

    I don't think HA dominance is game breaking, although as someone who plays the class a fair bit even I agree that having an overshield and instant, full health medikits seems to be overdoing it (plus, lose the medikits or reduce their effect and you'll need more medics).

    There is no reason in my view why 6 out of 10 players in a battle shouldn't be HA (there were some stats published a while back). It is, if you like, a reasonable reflection of the fact that most soldiers in an army are basic line tropps with a relatively small proportion of specialists. Nor are specialist classes boring or weak in PS2 - they have some brilliant extra skills and some (especially engie and medic) are real cert farmers.

    I don't think weapon stat comparisons address the problem either. Accuracy of the shooter, muzzle velocity, reliability of the new burst carbines and the variety of attachments all have an impact you just don't see reflected in stats but very real in combat.

    I think the current game focus on defending or capturing fixed points like bases is the main reason HA seems to dominate. There are exceptions (like when you finally get inside a biolab there seem to be a lot of LAs flitting around) but generally the infatnry battle is a bit of a face-off between heavy fighters like HA and Max on each side.

    More varied tactical scenarios might shift the emphasis a bit and I wonder if fighting to dominate resource-rich territory for your ANTs or the Black OPs thing (which I know little about) will have some impact.

    Of course, open field engagements will attract tanks in large numbers unless you have something to put them off but you gotta start somewhere......did I see something about a new NS uber rocket launcher? and a stealth Sunderer/infantry resupply base? I can also see a case for more engies to lay minefields and infls to stop enemy infantry blowing them up with shooting. Even LA might get a bigger look in - fanning out to ambush tanks driving in from the nearest base with C4. An enemy behind every tree would be a tankers nightmare and face it.......a lone HA with a rocket launcher ain't gonna do it.

    Of course a resource revamp that makes vehicles harder to spam would be even better for infantryside/open field engagements but now I'm just being silly, I know it is not in the plan yet despite much grief expressed on forumside.
  4. SW0V

    With respect to FSRM. Yeah, you're right that the first shot recoil would still be higher with the LMG. But vRecoil isn't the problem because you can compensate. Being able to micro-burst with LMGs is the problem. Having low FSRM means that you can micro-burst without changing how you compensate full auto... making it stupidly accurate when micro-bursting even more so than carbines and ARs =/.

    I agree that base moving ADS CoF needs to be at least 0.5. When DGC released the 'LMG tuning' thread I protested the specific changes you're talking about.

    You might be right about my bloom solution not being optimal. But the vision is similar to what you're talking about. My vision for the solution was to make LMGs quickly reach their tolerance cap but for the cap to be tighter than it currently is. Assuming I'm understanding what the tolerance value actually represents (a maximum CoF cap).

    In hindsight you might be right that reducing the bloom might be a better solution, especially if RoF is reduced and FSRM is increased. This would give users a window of time after having uncontrollable first shot recoil to then re-adjust their aim while still shooting.
  5. Skiptrace

    I think the problem with trying to balance LMG's to have a Suppression aspect is, this game is built around being mobile. You have to keep moving to stay alive.
  6. SW0V


    Hm, I probably should have chosen the title a little better. But my argument isn't that heavies break the game. But it does severely limit infantry diversity and subsequently makes the game very boring. In my opinion, and yes, I appreciate that it's just an opinion every infantry class should have even ground to kill other infantry and each infantry class should have some unique utility. Currently, I don't feel that this is true for PS2.

    All classes have a unique utility. But all infantry classes are not equally capable of killing each other and some class abilities can be saturated.
    Heavies are the AV class
    Engineers resupply and repair
    Medics heal and revive
    Infiltrators have map awareness and hacking
    LAs aren't limited to the same combat lines

    Resupplying is saturated with a single engineer....
    Reviving is saturated with a handful of medics....
    Map awareness is saturated by a single infiltrator....
    LA's can, albeit it rarely, saturate if there are only a few perches

    But heavies' ability to out 1v1 anyone else.... that's a hard benefit to ever have too much of =/.
  7. SW0V


    That's why I also suggest simultaneously buffing the overshield.
  8. Skiptrace

    And that response will be shot down by every player with the words ****. No. Including me.
  9. SW0V


    Why? Why not have a class that has lower DPS and less mobility but also takes significantly more punishment than other classes?

    Instead of what we currently have which is a class that can take 50% more damage and sacrifices hipfire for it (which is only useful inside 5m).
  10. Stainlesssteel

    Also when the LMG´s get nerved nearly every HA will use the NS MP ...which makes the Heavy far more mobile and he can even bettter run and gun down ..targets !
    I have all TR LMG´s auraxiumed, and the usage of that MP has for me a far more lethalaty advance than any LMG ..on neraly no range exept extreme long ranges you need to burst fire ...simply push the trigger and tear whatever apart!

    Taking from the HA will only be successful if the class is made to an LA without jumppacks ..and than the rage is for real..since the release of PS2 the HA remained nearly unchanged ...a few balance fixes yes but no real change !
    Also this easy-way-nerv-something mentality should be switched of !
    Why dont you buff..or..improve the other classes ? exept of the engeneer he got already too much...give the LA an additional Sprint ability (not this "Surge" equippment) a real sprint that allows him to double the run speed for Stamina X seconds..
    Give the Medic 1 or 2 Buff abilitys ..a nano shield what he could give the target for X seconds and X damage , when applyed to a HA it breakes when the Heavy uses his shield..
    A live buff ... + 100HP or something like that..
    Biological Warfare Assault rifles... only the medic can use ..doing 80 dmg per bullet and X Plague Dmg that spread to other victims if close to the target...
    And on and on and on...
    Put into the Game dont take of the game ..no matter how tiny the part is..
    Keep that in mind for life too...give
  11. stalkish

    I like your ideas, PS1 was a lot more varied in its weapon designs and thats one area i feel the PS2 devs really dropped the ball.
    For example in ps1 we had Plasma grenades, damage over time effect grenades (like being set on fire in other games). A direct hit also did additional damage.
    Other exotic weapons from PS1 include:
    Maelstrom
    Radiator
    Scorpion

    PS1 also had stamina (seriously....what happened to stamina??) and implants were powered by it. So the surge implant was exactly what you describe, incresed run speed until stamina ran out.

    PS1 had more thought put into it than 'run & gun' ps2.
  12. nehylen


    Just to correct you there: tolerance is not bloom related but horizontal recoil-related. On each shot your gun has a 50% chance to have horizontal recoil to the left and 50% chance to recoil to the right, at random. If you have 0.2 Hrecoil and 0.2 tolerance, that means your gun can recoil only by 1 shot (one iteration of horizontal recoil) on one side, as the next shot will be forced to recoil horizontally to the other side.

    If you have 0.4 tolerance, then your gun can deviate up to 2 shots (2 iterations of horizontal recoil) from the point of origin before being forced back to the other side.
    Since you have 0.4 tolerance on both left and right from the point of origin, that means your horizontal arc is actually 0.4x2 = 0.8°.
    If you have 0.39 horizontal recoil, and your tolerance is 0.4, the gun can still jitter to the side once more, as it didn't reach the 0.4 limit.
    Effectively making the horizontal arc: (0.39x2)x2 =1.56° in that example (2 shots max before forced back on one side, times 2 because both right and left sides).

    In practice tolerance becomes more important as RoF ramps up because it's harder to make short bursts with a higher RoF. So when you wield a 550rpm gun it doesn't really matter as you may avoid tolerance limitations easily.
    As such if you were to lower RoF on LMGs, tolerance wouldn't really matter, and you'd get more of the micro-bursting you want to avoid.
  13. SW0V


    That's right. I remember now. Thanks for sparking my memory.

    You're right then that reducing tolerance but increasing bloom would not be a good solution.
  14. Ximaster

    As a Heavy Vanu Assault user i want to say that the LMGs in general,not only the Vanu's LMGs,are overpowered. Remember that this weapons have more bullets in magazine and can shoot longer. Paired with the aditional shield,this things are hulks. So in a some fact i give reason,but now im playing very good with my Vanu HA,so dont touch they at the moment. Remember that HAs classes are made for be the first line of the battlefiled,and they need power and defense. This is the caused its named HEAVY ASSAULT.
  15. SW0V


    Yes. I used to make this argument as well. Until I realised that whilst this argument is fine for creating a balanced game. It's not fine for creating diverse gameplay and strategic depth.
  16. SW0V

    As a challenge to the devs....

    You guys live in America. So, go to a professional shooting range. Pick up an assault rifle and shoot at a target while walking towards it. Now do the same thing with an LMG. Feel the difference?
  17. _itg

    The big problem with nerfing LMGs as a way to rebalance HA is that SMGs and shotguns are available to the class, and the devs will never change that because people paid money to use those weapons on HA. Personally, I'd like to see the HA be significantly slower, maybe 90% base forward move speed, 75% base strafe and reverse speed (would this make 0.75x ADS on VS LMGs better or worse? Interesting question). Now other classes have a mobility advantage, as opposed to just being worse in a head-on fight. At this point, buffing the shield a little bit could be an option. I'd like that, if the class can take it without becoming overpowered again, since I think that feeling of soaking up a lot of hits adds flavor to the class.
  18. SW0V


    Outside of the Cyclone, SMGs and Shotguns are very limited in what they can achieve compared to LMGs. You can't clear a room with an SMG. You can't hit targets at range with a shotgun. But you can do both, and much much more, with current LMGs.
  19. Ximaster


    Then whats the problem??? I thought that u are disappointed with the HA,i believe this because my English comprension is bad,and is what i undestood.

    I have one TR HA completely updated and Vanu HA half updated,if the problem not is the population and the op weapons of the Vanu,TR will rocks. But dunno why,but i do more kills with the Vanu HA with the Lasher (that weapon is awesome!!!) than my TR HA with the T7 Mini Chain Gun. So,maybe u are talking about Vanu HAs. So maybe Vanu need an emergency nerf,not only on HA,in weapons and classes too. Becuase i can prove that TR HA is more of paper than Vanu HA with the same resist shield and adv. shield generator,with the Vanu HA i can killed 4 guys that comes one back another without die and still i have some shield on. My favorte HA was the TR,i have it fully updated in my TR char,but the Lasher its the only weapon that i can do magic,and the overpop that is Vanu its impossible to do anything. Lasers op,orion op,magrider op,Vanu op.

    Or DBG put restrictions like some time ago to join any overpoped faction or Vanu continues to seek and destroy all things in their path,u can only see the map in hard hours in Cobalt. Major part of territoryes are of Vanu,and always win all alerts.

    I have Vanu char for test weapons,i like it,specially the Lasher,but i know that is an injustice for other factions that overpower that have Vanu. And major part of responsable in those wins are an outfit named The Foundation. Those guys are dunno what,killing machines,strategic genies,suicidal pilots,dunno,but always if any of those guys are in battlefield the result is a win for the Vanu.

    The only faction that can face "decently" the Vanu was the TR,because NC...NC was my first faction to play,and since i tryed and tryed and tryed to play with those guys,always i finish to disappointment,there are very disorganized. Or maybe their outfits are made with newbies.

    Last night in a biolab battle im playing TR HA,dunno how but i killed 4 MAXes with brute force of the T7 Mini Chain Gun,4 MAXes...3 times the same guy. Yeah is a noob,his BR is 9 but...a MAX???? Well im trying to say that Vanu maybe its the only faction that have more veteran players,and this is the cause that do more kills and do stretegy in battlefield. If there are more of those MAXes pilots but in normal infantry,the other factions have better possibilityes to win. But Vanu are Veterans.

    So if anyone want to learn to play the game and dont like to die a lot,play Vanu,its over powered,by those weapons,vehicles and people.
  20. Goretzu

    The problems with HAs are (in order of fixablness):

    1) Medikit spam - just put a proper hard Cool Down on them!

    2) Movement with ADS, there's two ways to look at this. A) Remove or factionally balance all 0.75 ADS or B) give HAs the same base movment rate as REXO in PS1 (which I'd guess was 75-85% of current 100% in PS2)

    3) I think shields are fine, but you could make shields just work for AOE and buff base toughness.