2 Orion Myths Debunked

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by a-koo-chee-moya, Sep 16, 2014.

  1. sindz

    SVA-88 used to be really good, but then VS got the big blanket nerf on all their LMG's where it was argueable only the orion and the sva 98 which deserved the nerfs.

    So now you are left with only the Orion which is viable and the rest of VS LMG's are simply not worth it. This is also the major reason why people rage at the Orion, because its the only LMG worth using so people get killed by it. Alot.
    • Up x 1
  2. Flag

    You're funny.
    • Up x 4
  3. RHINO_Mk.II

    I was originally working with someone else's numbers without double checking them. I corrected the error in text but didn't update the diagram, since the concept is the same.
    • Up x 2
  4. jiggu

    What did they nerf on the SVA-88?
  5. Klypto

    It's still wrong. The original numbers are supposed to be m/s not KPH like the crazy OP.

    I'm scared that people are going to just minimze the true power of strafing in this game.
    • Up x 2
  6. GhostAvatar

    1. Lets ignore the CoF values for the Orion.... ohh right. Thats because they don't support your argument. But lets get a few things straight. CoF = accuracy. Recoil = handling !accuracy. Uncontrolled, recoil can have an effect, but that is something the end user can manipulate with skill. CoF is a completely random event, that the end user has no control over. This is why people burst fire at range. To get more accuracy by resting the CoF, not the recoil pattern.

    The following two images should give you an idea of the accuracy between the two weapons.


    2. You're kidding right? I aint even going to counter this, as I can use it as a valid forumside argument to have it added to TR LMGs. Since it is so insignificant, right!

    This whole thread is nothing more than selective data usage and manipulation to try and prove a point. So why no PSA tag?
    • Up x 6
  7. Lamat

    You shouldn't have soft point ammo on any of your silly energy weapons. :p
    • Up x 2
  8. Hatesphere

    right, they should change it to something more fluffy like high and low temperature plasma.
  9. Surmise

    Well : Most credit goes to sindz and Kryvakryz

    Can't wait for 0.75 speed and 0.4 cof Anchor and MSWR too! thanks!
    • Up x 1
  10. Soturin

    Your calculations are off. You are counting the first shot as having the rof delay before being fired. To get the correct ttk of a weapon, please remove the first shot from your calculation to get the correct ttk. Orion and Anchor have identical ttk if you do the math correctly.
    • Up x 2
  11. sindz

    ll VS LMGs now match the LMG standard of having a 0.2 crouch move COF and a 0.4 stand-move LMG COF.

    • Long reload increased from 4.18 to 4.7 seconds
    • Short reload increased from 3.065 to 3.38 seconds
    • Vertical recoil reduced from 0.45 to 0.44
    • First shot recoil increased from 1.5 to 1.75
    • Max horizontal recoil increased from 0.2 to 0.225
    • New minimum hip-fire accuracy: 3.0
    • New maximum hip-fire accuracy: 4.0
    + the 0.75x ADS gun nerf:

    0.75x move speed weapons have been adjusted so that they have clearer tradeoffs for the move speed bonus. This generally means longer reloads and more recoil drift (to match them being the closer range variants).

    The CoF change is obviously out of step with the treatment given to other 0.75 weapons, its CoF wasn't moved one tier but put nearly into the same as the Gauss SAW, which is clearly not right. With just a little cross comparison and without knowing all the numbers, right now the SVA is less accurate than the Orion, and only gains a little velocity, 25 bullets + longer reload. Literally no reason to ever take it. That a faster firing gun is more controllable than it tells you how far it's gone. Way past the point of sense.

    And this is only the changes I can remember.
    • Up x 2
  12. RHINO_Mk.II

    Fixed numbers.
    • Up x 3
  13. Kryvakryz

    I like it how you accuse me of spewing personal opinions and then proceed to absolutely destroy your credibility with a claim that Orion is the most accurate LMG in the game.

    Anyway, you don't see it because I wasn't asked for it, but this fact is completely unrelated to my point about you being ignorant. I'm not going to spoonfeed you any more than I have to, use search option if you want to know more.

    As for high damage/low ROF guns, they don't need higher ROF simply because they are balanced around effective TTK, not DPS. Alpha damage strongly benefits you if you land the first shot, meaning you did more damage before the enemy was able to react compared to 147 gun, especially if it was a headshot. Giving equal DPS to low ROF/high damage guns would be unfair to lower damage/high ROF guns because they trade the utility of cover-alpha damage synergy, better HS damage on a round, controlability and accuracy for the ability to consistently lead a target as well as land more shots in spray-and-pray moments. What's more, the first shot is fired instantly, so assuming equal accuracy and DPS it means that the ratio of shots that need to be fired to kill the target is always in favor of high damage weapon. In other words - if you get shot first, you're at a disadvantage regardless of what type of gun you are using; but if you are the one shooting first, you benefit from alpha damage while high ROF gun does not.

    Assuming 100% accuracy Anchor kills only 0.02s slower than Orion, yet has a lot more controlability and thanks to better accuracy on the move + extremely favorable horizontal recoil with low horizontal tolerance it will be able to land more shots where you want them than it would be in case of Orion, especially at medium to longer ranges, when burst firing.
    • Up x 1
  14. Lamat

    To be fair, these ARE essentially immortal superhuman soldiers that have been fighting non-stop for hundreds of years. You can’t really compare them to the average human who eats hot pockets and doesn't exercise.
    • Up x 1
  15. Schwak

    The conversation isn't does .75 ads make that big a difference on a heavy, the conversation is why can't we just remove it?
  16. gigastar

    Nrrrgh. Logic. No like. Brain hurt.
  17. EnsignPistol

    Actually, even with that correction the Anchor is still the tiniest bit slower in ideal TTK, at 0.5 seconds vs. 0.48. But then an even bigger issue with comparing the two than optimal TTK (which admittedly is a rather small issue here) is what I call additional shot penalty.

    For any incident that requires you to take an extra shot, if they run ranks of nanoweave, if they're a heavy assault and use their shield, if you miss or hit them in the leg for less damage, etc., at 600 rounds per minute you add 0.1 seconds to your actual time to kill, but only 0.08 seconds to your actual time to kill with a weapon that fires at 750 rounds per minute. Basically lower rates of fire get penalized in their effectiveness more by real world conditions.


    The above link to the damage analyzer demonstrates. This shows the simple TTK comparison between the LA1 Anchor and the Orion VS54 against a Heavy Assault with rank 4 nanoweave armor using their nanite mesh generator, with a stated shooter "skill" of 50%, already higher than the more common 30% benchmark. Even with soft point ammunition, once you start adding on these longer additional shot penalties as I call them, there's a pretty consistent gap of about 0.1 seconds in favor of the Orion, which increases in size the further out you go in range (though admittedly at ranges where you probably wouldn't enjoy using either gun). Since it takes the anchor 0.1 seconds exactly between rounds to fire an additional shot, that's only a one bullet margin of error to even vaguely approach the realistic time to kill of an equally skilled Orion user, within which the Orion user has room to fire at least one more shot of their own.

    Which is again, part of why I don't understand why the TR/VS people sometimes get jealous at the NC's 200 damage per bullet guns. At 500 rounds per minute, the additional shot penalty for missing, heavy shields, nanoweave, etc., becomes even larger at 0.12 seconds. Yes, perfect condition time to kill actually does become equal at .48 seconds then, but needing even one more shot means you lose all your advantage compared to a 167/600 damage model weapon missing the same shot, and any additional shots you need just penalize you even more. For the NC supposedly being the "hard hitting" faction, the only thing getting hit hard is us if we miss shots or encounter anything more than base damage resistance.

    Which isn't even to say I think the Orion is overpowered, at least not by any great margin. What is is however, is particularly well designed around a specific engagement range compared to other starting LMGs. You get a highest rate of fire/ideal DPS of any light machine gun, better than average hipfire, and 0.75 ADS speed, all good for close quarters fighting (which is incidentally most combat in this game). Sure the vertical recoil per second is attrocious, about 5.5 degrees per second including the first shot multiplier, and the projectile isn't particularly fast, but these aren't major concerns up close, at which point the only real let down is that you don't get CQC oriented attachments for it.

    I can't speak directly for CARV users, but with the Gauss SAW you have a sort of stat conflict where attributes like bad hipfire accuracy, above average bullet velocity, perfect stationary ADS accuracy but bad moving ADS accuracy, and access to the advanced forward grip/compensator/HVA combo all suggest a good long range platform, but the vertical recoil per second (4.94 degrees per second including first shot multiplier, not Orion bad but still pretty awful, and a about a full degree worse than other 200 damage, long range guns like the AC-X11 and Reaper DMR) combined with the very sharp first shot jump means even with those attachments, control issues start to set in at anything past medium range. It's more in conflict with what it wants to do than the Orion by a fair deal as a result. Do I try to use it at a distance and fight some pretty awful recoil at those ranges, or get closer and risk my greater penalty if it takes an extra shot to kill becoming more important? With the Orion you don't have that same conflict.
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  18. hostilechild

    Anyone have overall player accuracy figures for Orion, anchor, msw-r ?

    For me the Orion is the most accurate but only by 2% and anchor 1% over msw-r Outside the .75ads they are pretty dam even for me across the board.

    If an HA pops his shield then it doesn't matter the .75ads is basically nullified and i never see the adada dub stub warping (this even happens >50fps for me) So HA starts fight adadadad then pops shield. If you haven't seen it come to connery and fight FCRW heavies and you will see what its like. I am sure their is some lag inducing going on with some of them as not all are spastic

    But each faction gets a line of .75ads. Personally i think all 3 factions should have 1 weapon in each category with .75ads but an ads movement accuracy loss for it. It shouldn't be the most accurate and have .75 (which currently for me they are)

    And when you adadad spam on your own screen you barely move so it doesn't effect accuracy much at all except the moving ads cof penalty.
  19. Yuukikun

    You shouldn't play this game if you have 10-15 fps, and if you do, you have nothing to say about balance because you're not really playing the game at all.
    • Up x 1
  20. Yuukikun

    I payed 1000$ for my PC 4 years ago and i get 100fps while streaming. go away with your 3000$ lies. Whether you're broke (and should be trying to find a job instead of playing video games), or you're greedy and don't want to face the consequences of it.
    • Up x 2