Shared Liability Friendly Fire

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by FurorPlacidus, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. FurorPlacidus

    Friendly fire is fairly complex, from being run over by a careless driver to having someone stand in front of your Lasher because you have an excellent firing spot, its sometimes difficult to assign blame for FF. What I am proposing is you get Friendly Fire Points both for hitting a Friendly *and* being hit by a Friendly. Raise the lockout caps slightly to reflect the additional source of FFPs. Over time this will punish persistent Jwalkers, MyShotIsMoreImportant wannabes, That Guy with the Grenade and Miopic tank drivers. Secondly FFPs should be removable by Healing, Repairing or any other support activity. Community Service if you will. This should present a system that is much more difficult to Grief with and holds all individuals accountable for their actions. Suggestions welcome.
  2. Rune

    In the real world the one who does the killing is always the one tho gets the blame unless you're living in some backwater country with capital punishment. Theres a reason for that and I think that reason translates well into PS2.

    If anything we should get more grief points then we do at the moment for each kill / hit.
  3. FurorPlacidus

    That is because in the real world people do not tend to worry about what happens to them after they have been killed. Nor do people come back from the dead afterwards. You cant really apply that argument as death is not permanent. However blame can still be attributed to the dead if it was clearly their fault for doing something dramatic and stupid.
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  4. Lambchopz

    I don't think the current grief system is really that problematic. Obviously, it's not perfect, but it works well enough. Making it overly complex would probably be a nightmare for the programmers, better that they focus on more pressing matters for the time being.

    Unless you are totally careless, or intentionally team killing, chances are you won't rack up enough grief to get your guns locked or anything. I kill plenty of team mates (on accident) due to them jumping in front of my Tank. Granted it's frustrating, I've never had anything come of it besides the big red letters popping up on my screen.

    There is a certain onus on the driver of large vehicles to at least try and avoid running over friendlies. If you get locked because you aren't paying attention, that really is your fault at the end of the day.

    There are some things that are dumb and should probably be looked at, such as getting grief credit for killing friendlies when you blow up generators, but for the most part I think it does what it needs to do. It stops mass intentional team-killing, and it punishes the worst offenders when it comes to absent-minded drivers, or mindless shooters.
  5. Rune

    If you drive a car fast close to a kindergarden you can complain all you want about the stupid kids running in front of your car, but in reality you should slow down.

    In PS2 you can complain about all the idiots running in front of you when you are shooting, but in reality you shoulndt be number 100 in a tight corridor emptying your magazine.

    The system is in place both to punish TK and to promote a certan playstyle. (not spamming)
    I think its punishment enough to either die or loose hp from being hit. It sucks BIGTIME to have friendlies fire at you.

    The one pulling the trigger is ultimatly the one to blame, if anything should be added modified it should be to add a forgive system and added grief points to the one pulling the trigger.
  6. VKhaun

    FF is not complex. You shot/hit/exploded someone. Stop it or your weapons get locked. The end.

    We need grief cranked up. Every day I see more forum threads like this full of people making excuses for every kind of FF incident. I used a Lasher carelessly in a tower the other day plus TK'd people with bad nades, after running a friendly guy over on the way in. None of it was intentional and all of it was my fault. I felt terrible. My weapons still didn't lock... felt completely let down. If someone else had shown up to that fight and been nading people and TK'ing, I would have expect them to get weapons locked and leave, but there I was at the end of the battle with several shiny new cert points headed for the next base with my lasher out.
  7. FurorPlacidus

    Friendly Fire is complex, the situation you describe you clearly attribute to yourself. What about the cloaker who runs around stealthed and you run him over. Your fault? No. What about the heavy who walks in front of you to deliberately grief you? Someone who runs onto your flashing grenade? There are all situations where it shouldn't be your fault. Ignore lashers and other grief magnates.

    Dual liability grief should be very easy to implement and over time solves all those problems.

    I also agree grief caps in general should be lowered. I hardly ever generate Grief and most of the time its because someone else is being stupid.
  8. FieserMoep

    I am a frontline LA, Nades and C4 are, beside my trusty carbine, my bread and butter and sometimes it happens that I TK someone. Hell, I know how much I hate it, if that happens to me and I am always sorry for this guys but never, ever happend it so frequently that I got weapon locked. The only weapon Lock I ever had was in the Beta when there was a huge FFA Fight on the Warpgate.

    So I wonder, what the hell are you doing to get weapon locked?
  9. FurorPlacidus

    I have never, *ever* been weapon locked in PS2. In PS1 my grenade launcher got me locked a few times :)

    My problem is with griefers. I think VKhaun is correct and the Grief caps should be lowered, dramatically. My problem is I have come across far more griefers in PS2 than I ever did in PS1. And that when the caps do get lowered it wont be in any way fair. It doesn't matter if its stupidity, carelessness or malicious everyone should be accountable. In joint liability, on average the offending player will be the one punished because they will be involved in more incidents more often than that non offenders. Anyone who runs into a room after you have thrown a grenade, or moves infront of a firing line to get their rocket shot off shouldn't have that as a valid play style just as much as the ignoramus who sets up a turret and holds down the fire button when allies are storming the door.
  10. MintiFresh

    I really like this idea. I'm really sick of being weapon locked because of multiple idiots walking in front of me while I'm holding a choke in a MAX, or when I'm in a turret blazing away. They don't even think to crouch before they do it. I wish common sense actually was common, but sadly it seems to elude the majority of humanity.
  11. Raidashi

    I had an argument about this with my friend earlier. I proved my point in the most despicable way possible... application of fact. The server i'm on right now with TC is having a horrible issue with this, and the above point is why. Its to the point i'm CERTAIN that the vanu on the server have people on the TC side that C4 our vehicles.

    Now, i'm normally no TKer, but whatever. This has some merit to it that deserves to be noted.

    Just on a whim, i killed i dont know how many people by nonchalantly dropping grenades in tight area's where people were clustered. I did this repeatedly for over an hour, before the game was like "rofl okay stop plz" and locked me out.

    During this time, our team lost 2 major strong points (One of which was one of those giant circular bases), and several smaller objectives, just because i would take out any organized unit and cause them to scatter into the enemy. Was hilarious, but shouldnt have happened more then once or twice. I did this probably 15-20 times in which people got hurt and or died, and again as many where people just had to leave cover and run into the open (to get gunned down).

    The fact is, the current system is vastly too lenient. For all this, i got locked out... Just locked. I shoulda been suspended for the amount of grief/frustration i caused, but a few minutes of down time i guess suffices aswell.

    Frankly, in my opinion, if you FF on some one, no matter the reason, you should take a penalty. I'd give maybe 1 or 2 freebies since we all do **** up, but the above example is way out of line.

    I think tiered punishments would work wonders to help... for example from a game i used to play and i recommend it for an idea:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lets say for arguments sake the average player had 50-60 HP, and were talking in damage here. Regardless if it comes from a tank, grenade, gun, melee, or ramming. Again, assume a single player cant be hit for more then their total/remaining HP).

    Grief is added based on damage dealt to player/target, or 20. Whichever is greater, an no more then the targets maximum HP.

    Start/white zone (0-50 damage) display a visual warning to avoid FF.

    Early/green zone (50-150 damage FF) display a visible AND audible warning.

    Mid/yellow zone (150-300 damage worth), have your weapon hickup and lock for a short period if you hit a friendly, not enough to really cripple your game, but enough to stop your grief attempt and prevent you from "accidentally" FF on your own team. Maybe 5 or so seconds, and increases every time you hit some one. The point is to not let it get past here unintentionally (even if being careless)

    Late/red zone (300+ FF damage), you've obviously been TRYING to get to this point. Upon receiving red status, your weapon locks for 30 minutes at which point you can only use non lethal equipment (repair gun, heal, ext) and cannot get in a vehicle as a gunner/driver. Also beyond here, when you even clip a friendly, you die and are locked. If your in a vehicle, it explodes and you die and are locked. You cant drive passenger vehicles (or the extra slots are just locked).You cant consume a secondary weapon seat, and will default to passenger. You can no longer equip explosives of any kind (including the launchers). Grief WILL NOT lower while weapon is in the 30 minute lock out, which will happen during every instance of FF.

    End/Black zone (400+) you retain the red penalties, but your account is flagged for suspension, pending moderator review. Players can appeal but obviously it shouldnt get to this point with all the implements in place that prohibit you from getting here. Grief does not lower until reviewed by a moderator.

    Naturally, your grief would die down after a great many hours, perhaps 20 per hour. This should keep the honest honest, and hopefully weed out bad players. However, another idea here to keep people from abusing the caps:

    Background counter: retains the total amount of FF damage the player does over the course of a month. If a player reaches beyond say perhaps 2-3000, the account is flagged for moderation. This will prevent people from just hitting yellow cap and leaving it alone over and over.
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    To me, this is even a bit lenient. I will RARELY peg a friendly more then once or twice in a day, never with a vehicle, and i dont toss grenades near my own people. I think i once accidentally domed a fool who walked infront of my sniper rifle. Oh well, that sucks. If you down more then 1-3 friendlies in a day's worth of playing, then you REALLY need to be more careful... Theres no reason for it. I mean, even if i was TRYING to grief you by running infront of your gun while you were firing, it would be excessively difficult to do.

    The little tale i wrote, using the above rules, probably would have gotten me suspended right off the bat. Any one looking at the data could easily tell that it was pretty intentional.

    Thinking numbers here:

    you could kill max 15 using the base of 20 points (assuming they have no HP here), before hitting red. to go from red, to black, would consist of 5 more kills (total 20 now) and would take you at least 2.5 hours of actually trying. You can kill 1 person that has no HP per hour, and not increase your grief level. I find that mostly acceptable. A player will usually have more then 0 hp, so the numbers will realistically work out to less. Say each player has 50 hp, its really 3 full hp to nothing friendly kills to yellow, 6 to red, and 7 to black.

    Anyway, thats me just thinking. I've seen systems very similar to this used in other games, and those games have VERY little griefing.