VS Directive Reward Weapons are no longer rewards

Yeah my mistake. I had even looked it up after writing it down and forgot to alter it.

I know you don't, that's why I took the time to explain it to you. That is the case, and that's fine, as long as you stop basing your assumptions on a false concept we can move on from here.

1. Pre-packaging a post by calling people out like that is absolutely stirring the pot.

2. I have argued against the 'Goose is OP' crowd for years, I am aware of all of the arguments. Stop trying to rope me in with them.

3. Most of my time on my VS alt was with a pump action slug shotgun, but now that they've murdered that playstyle I've been casually working on the LMGs so I'll probably get the BG sometime this summer. Not that I really expect it to change my opinion on the subject, since I've used the Orion already.

You have been throwing around personal opinions and hearsay in this thread left, right, and center since your first post, up to and including this one, so with all due respect take the accusations and stick them somewhere uncouth.

Directive weapons being no better than the standards is not a "personal opinion", it's a bloody fact. Even pre-Arsenal, pre-heatnerf Betelgeuse was considered worse than the Orion in a pure 1v1 scenario simply because of attachments. The Heat Mechanic is a trade-off. In the Goose's case it was attractive enough to make it useful, but it wasn't an upgrade. (Coincidently, the BG just got access to attachments right at the same time the heat mechanic got an adjustment, almost as if it was intended to keep this balance.) Directive weapons have always been at best a sidegrade, please get this through your head.

I think its a bit puzzling when people actually argue that a LMG with only 40-50 bullets available at any given point in time does not have any drawbacks worth talking about.

Orion and Betel are great peeking weapons where you can limit the fight to 1-2 people before retreating behind cover and barely an upgrade over a carbine if you find yourself being pushed or having to push into a room where you simply cant take a tea break every two seconds you spend shooting.

45 bullets in a Orion/Betel is the damage equivalent of running around with a 32-33 bullet SAW, its plenty to kill someone but you dont really want to hold off a push or perform a push if thats all the bullets you get before having to run away.

Still no comments based on personal use of the Betel. That's the only thing that will sway me in the direction of your arguments. I'm not interested in theoretical figures, stats, whatever, only actual use of the Betel, both before and after the nerf ('buff') by the people who claim it was OP and still is. Sorry, I don't believe you. When you have actually used the thing I might be more convinced.

From what I can see, directive rewards that are better than the base model are design failures when they are for VS, but reasonable for NC or TR. So this is NOT a matter of game design, but faction prejudice. I have heard plenty of people say that the directive reward LMGs for NC and TR are better than their base models and apparently after this latest buff, they are even better again. Sorry, you are not convincing me. I do NOT believe that directive reward weapons should not be better. If they weren't there's absolutely can't see the point in grinding for them. I'm not interested in cosmetic versions. The Gallows will probably just stay unauraxed because I'm not interested in using it, for instance. It's no better than the NS-15M2 it's based on. In fact, it's just the same but with a skull on it. Probably in crayon. No thanks, if it's not a better LMG, I'm not interested in using it. I already auraxed every single LMG in the VS arsenal and that's enough for me. I've already figured out that the Polaris and Ursa are my goto weapons even over the Orion and the Betel. I'm just annoyed that the VS heat mechanic is clearly being targeted by the devs, presumably because of people from NC and TR complaining about the Betel. I'm actually not interested in the argument. I just don't like unfairness, which is what I'm seeing here, regardless of the arguments people are making.

No I will never be convinced of this idea that directive rewards are not meant to be better than their base models. Clearly they are, from the reports I've heard from others about the TR and NC directive reward LMGs and the buffs they have had in the latest update. This is all about the VS heat mechanic, which as far as I'm concerned comes down to favouritism and/or prejudice on the part of the devs.

What? I still don't know what you're talking about. Are we even talking about the same things?

I didn't ask you to join this conversation. You're welcome to opt out of it at any time.

And I'd like to hear your opinion after you've used it, both in comparison with the Orion and with your own favoured LMGs. My belief is that there are a lot of people quoting stats that have never actually used the thing, and don't therefore know anything about how it works practically (other than being on the other end of it of course)

I'm only interested in my own personal opinions, than you very much. I'm also interested in whether others that have actually used the Betel find it OP. If you haven't then you can stick your opinions in a similar place. There is no need to be nasty. I didn't invite you to this conversation and you are free to leave anytime. If you have nothing better to add than personal attacks, what are you here for?

No, I don't think I agree with you. And I certainly don't agree with you the more you attack me for just having an opinion. I don't like bullies.

Where did you see that? Who is saying that? Who is arguing that the NC/TR directive weapons that are superior should stay? No one? Could it be that you are creating a strawman here?

Also the TR and NC directive versions arent supa-dupa OP versions that both play and perform vastly superior. It is quite literally the only directive weapon worth playing for that many people rush it.

Exactly! your opinion is more important to you than game design and you use your faction prejudice to justify yourself.


Just look at this for instance:
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...04218&startDate=2022-01-02&endDate=2022-05-17

I've removed the NS variants since those are shared amongst all factions and can skew the stats in some ways.

See how on the average day the Betel is about 50% or more effective than the next best weapon? I wonder how that happens right? And when playing with the Betel it is as good as the Orion. A high ROF laser weapon compared to the Gauss SAW/GodSAW. But hey who cares right?

You have been making a strong point for the most powerful LMG by a long shot to remain unfair.

You are quite literally asking for unfair weapons or you'll feel its not worth your time.

Classic VS.

So why is it that there is no huge difference in users for the directive weapons?
Its basically a iron rule that the good/OP stuff gets used by as many people as possible because they are good/OP, while there are in general more Betel users than Godsaws and Butchers its not a big difference aside from the Butcher but the Godsaw numbers keeps up really well with the Betel.


Either way I think this just shows the obvious everyone should already know, just how big of an impact the lack of ammo for the Orion actually is since afaik its otherwise slightly better than the Betel but its a huge difference in performance.

Aaaaand to everyones surprise, using accurate weapons is a big advantage.


My own experience with the Betel is fairly meh, I liked the heat mechanic because I like to be self sufficient in the long run to the point where I never use medkits and instead rely on Regeneration implant so in my mind the 'unlimited ammo' gets ranked quite high on desirable traits in a weapon. Performance wise VS has better LMGs though I will say that I have not used the Betel at all since the nerf or attachment changes so its very likely better now than before if you make it so because I dunno about everyone else but I always felt the Betel was inaccurate before, I even had to record a few fights just to make sure I was not imagining things where I thought I aimed well and the bullets just painted a outline around their heads, which it actually did fairly often.

I still used it though, both just because 'Directive weapon'-bling and heat mechanic was a change but if I were to only look for combat performance I would definitely pick something else so personally I dont really care if the Betel gets nerfed though it would be weird since that means the Orion would/should be next on the chopping block and I cant really get behind that idea unless the other factions, especially TR, would also get the hammer on weapons similar to it.

Yes, it's been my experience that there's no lack of Godsaw users. Don't know about the Butcher, I don't seem to come up against it that much. My main protagonists are usually the Gauss Saw and Godsaw. The Gauss Saw is literally everywhere, with the occasional Godsaw thrown in for good measure.

Yes, 50 shots for the Orion with no option for an extended mag, at 750rpm is just ludicrous. For an LMG that's madness. Against 100 rounds for the Gauss Saw at 500rpm and 200 damage close it doesn't stand a chance. You can get the first guy, but then the second (there's always a second guy) will get you. Most often though, your 50 shots run out and the Gauss Saw still has more than half its magazine still to go. Of course the Orion is a short to medium range gun, so there's an argument that it should be up against something much faster firing. Usually, though, it's the Gauss Saw, probably because it was until recently, the default LMG for NC. Now, the Betel is even worse than the Orion in this regard, which is the reason I am tending not to use it anymore.

Yes, I liked the heat mechanic, for the self sufficiency, but it's now a legacy. I also run Regeneration on most of my classes, but have been experimenting with the shield implants since the nanoweave nerf so run med kits on my heavies for that. The attachments for the Betel don't compensate for the mess they've made of it performance wise. We are yet to see what the stats from sites like Voidwell make of these so called improvements. My bet is that we will see the Orion replace the Betel, or perhaps something completely different, perhaps the Flare? Or the Maw. Slower firing, but still pretty comparable to the Orion in damage output. And both have a much more forgiving capacity than the Orion, and certainly the Betel.

My concern is that when the Orion gets nerfed, just as happened with the Betel, the NC and TR equivalents will get buffed. It's clear to me that the devs wish to placate the belief, however justified, that VS is OP, and to do that they will both nerf VS weapons and buff NC and TR weapons. They are nerfing VS out of the game, if they do that. I can't understand why they would do that, since the game arguably revolves around all three factions, although I do accept that NC and TR can't see the point of VS in the game. Even as far as the lore of the game is concerned, VS is the outsider. NC and TR are the ones battling it out for dominance really. To me, all of this is just more reason I'm feeling like I don't want to play the game anymore. I'm quite happy to leave it to NC and TR if that's what they and the devs want.

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How's the Aurax'ed pistols? Worth the grind? Specifically the Immortal vs pistol / upgraded beamer. It's just a beamer with slightly less bullet drop? Should Immortal be better? Or have other ammo types.

The Beamer has bullet drop??!! I haven't noticed that. But I guess at the short ranges I've used it I probably wouldn't.

The Butcher does have a huge difference, on average scoring between 20 to 30% less users each day. The GODSAW does keep up and its not surprising: most days its the best performing LMG on the NC. So why shouldnt the NC pick the GODSAW almost as much as the Betel? Its not like they've got a better choice!

And even that best choice doesnt hold a candle to the VS Betel. "Mediocre" feelings aside, its the only directive reward that players actively build a character around. Which is weird right? Why are people working so hard to unlock it ASAP compared to the other LMG's if it's supposed to feel mediocre or "doesnt" perform that well?

The question is more like, why are not more VS using the Betel if its such a upgrade over everything else?

Considering we are only seeing 300-500 players using the weapons daily over ALL servers combined. Seems unlikely that each server would only have like 2-3 dozen players playing per faction who has access to them especially since you seem convinced people actually make characters just to use it... why are there not more people using it then when there are almost equal numbers using the Godsaw? is that also so good that people make characters just to unlock it?

Not sure how you are not seeing the gaping hole in the logic you are using.

Population differences?
Bias causing them to think its way worse than it is and pick other weapons?
Does it even matter? The fact is that its the best performing LMG with more than enough room to spare.

Nope, not a hole. Dig deeper and dont skip factors.

Even then the Betel is objectively the best performing LMG and the TR&NC are clearly suffering from it. Complaints on the Betel's superior performance have been there since its inception, and the VS saying its not OP has been there even when it had 0.75ADS multiplier which was considered a Godtier trait.

So why shouldnt we look at fixing the Betel? Just because people doubt why its overperforming? I mean the fact that the GodSAW sees the same usage numbers of people who have the time sunk in the game to aurax it just reinforces the fact that the Betel is a blatantly superior weapon. Why cant you see that?

And some people will never be convinced the Earth is round. NC and TR directive weapons also have tradeoffs, VS is not special here.

It won't be my first Directive weapon, I know what to expect. Statistically it's the same gun as the Orion, minus the heat mechanic. Historically the only difference prior to this has been the lack of customizable attachments, which made the choice between a more controllable weapon with an ammo pool or a less controllable one with unlimited ammo. It is not a coincidence that once the BG got access to attachments, suddenly the heat mechanic got adjusted to prevent the BG from being a straight upgrade.

Ah, you finally came out and said it after all! Bad news: if all you wanted was an echo chamber you should have started a blog. This is an open thread on a public forum - everyone was invited.

Correction of ignorance, so it looks like I'll be here as long as you are.

You had a personal opinion which was incorrect. I told you why and I explained why. That is not 'bullying'. That is not an 'attack'. Didn't like it? That's tough.

I suppose I can only say that I might start playing VS again as there is going to be quite a few buffs incoming to weapons that I might want to try out since we judge it with KPU stats and VS does have some underperforming stuff, Blueshifts for example would need a buff and Mattocks needs a big nerf, even some AV MAX weapons would need tuning, Lasher is the worst performing heavy weapon with the Thumper, ESF and Harasser weapons and so on.

Of course they do. I never suggested they don't. The point of this discussion isn't even about tradeoffs. It's about usability.

No, it's NOT an Orion minus the heat mechanic. This nerf, despite all the bling that you guys think makes the Betel better, makes it much less sustainable in a firefight. Yes, the Betel in the past was better than the Orion, but that's no longer the case.

I'm not looking for an echo chamber. I'm looking to tell the devs that they stuffed up. The more they see this conversation and others like it, the more they will realise that. Unless of course, they're biased as much as you are.

I don't need my ignorance corrected. This is about my experience of a weapon, and any of those others who read this exchange who will see the unwritten verification by you of what I'm talking about. Like I said, I didn't invite you here, you write at your own discretion. The results are yours to deal with.

My opinion was only incorrect in your eyes, and those who agree with you. It is bullying when you try to denigrate people for their opinions. In any case, your attitudes are coming through your writing, which is far more important and productive.

Yes, that might be the case. I expect that when the backlash from these nerfs hits, the devs might realise they've overstepped the mark, and start to try to reel it back in. Hopefully the Lasher, particularly, will be buffed. Whether or not I'm around to see it will probably depend on how quickly they do this. I'm already thinking VS is a lost cause, at least on PS4, and after this exchange my desire to play NC or TR is now at an all time low.

There would be a lot more buffs and nerfs incoming. But you should not forget that KPU and Uniques arent the only things to be considered. When and how something is used is also important. A Lasher or two can hold down a doorway, no one is going to cross the streams and your KPU will suffer for it (doubly so because you'll share kills) but that does not mean its not effective.

Also compared to the NC and TR starter weapons the Orion DOMINATES. it has around 10 to 45% more KPU, which for a starter weapon with so many users means sometimes 3000+ more kills on a day. That is some major impact on the game. Its easier, more powerful but stil has those huge starter weapon numbers. Say bye bye to OP starter weapon if you do that! And hello to mediocre (but not bad) VS LMG arsenal! Nerfing the Orion would have a major impact on the VS and you would likely NOT enjoy the VS as much despite other things being buffed.