all mines are lame and should be taken out of the game

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by synkrotron, Dec 5, 2021.

  1. Demigan

    You did see the post where I gave solutions right?

    And imagine this: we make a Carbine that shoots OHK bullets, but we also add a suit slot which reduces the damage of such a Carbine to a mere 125 damage model.
    No one is forcing you to pick the suit slot, but if you dont you are subject to gameplay that isnt fun. And that is what we talk about: we have a gameplay element which isnt fun so people complain about it. The "solution" people come up with is to say "ah but with this severely limited loadout you are protected, otherwise just accept that there is an unfun mechanic around". That is not acceptable, you should never have a situation where most loadouts are subject to an unfun mechanic.

    You say that first a casualty has to happen, but why would that ever be the only way that mines could work? Hell if someone walks across a mine all I'll be is more agressive and less cautious since the mines have just been cleared, why worry about it? At worst you avoid another route which likely has the second mine. The problem is that someone already has died to it and there is little reason to be more cautious afterwards.

    If you want caution, then making mines something damaging instead of a OHK would be superior with the added option of making actual minefields. If you step on a mine then you cant move forwards for fear of stepping on the next mine or coming under fire, and any nearby allies will also have to be actually cautious.

    A handheld one is not good. PS2 is not designed for a slow approach. We already see the Medic for example suffering because its ability forces you to put away their combat capabilities and look at an enemy to work. Imagine having to make a choice at every corner: do I risk getting OHK'd by a mine or do you risk anyone coming around the corner being able to blow you apart because you arent holding your weapon?

    The UB scanner is a far more interesting slot, although it still requires the player to have specific loadouts equipped so it wouldnt be a solution on its own. That said with a suitably limited view where it scans (Alien's 45 degree angle might be a bit much) and only showing it on the minimap it could be a nice addition. To make it useful and not a niche object it could also scan for other things like deployables or detect players who use an ability (like infiltrators or Heavies). You are sacrificing a valuable slot after all. And if someone says "but darklight" then consider this as an alternative to the Darklight. Darklight shows up on screen, this would show on the minimap.

    And again the only solution is to wear one of two specific loadouts to deal with an unfun mechanic.

    Why cant AV mines become an overwatch mechanic as well? So you cant just dump a few in a spot somewhere and get a free kill on anyone not having a highly specific loadout? You present your idea as if this is the only way, but its deliberately limiting while carrying and deploying AV/AI mines isnt half as limiting since it doesnt sacrifice direct combat capabilities to carry mines.
    AV mines could easily be changed so you cant stack them but add a debuff to the vehicle instead. If you drive straight through a minefield you are dead but you have options since hitting a single mine does not mean 3 mines explode and destroy you. The debuff with the damage done should make AV mines more than lethal and useful enough unless you expect cheap cheesy kills with it by simply dumping some in a good spot and waiting till someone crosses it.

    You victimshame by putting it all on the players who die to it, "pick this loadout or else accept a bad mechanic" is what you do. Even with extra choices in loadouts the result is the same: sacrifice your loadout variety to deal with a single badly balanced mechanic. Thats not good, thats not constructive. Thats pretty much insulting. Especially if you consider how massively safe and easy it is to place mines and how much effort and sacrifices you have to make to protect yourself. The effort on the minelayer should be similar as the effort required by the opposition to deal with the mines and the rest of the common threats. And the reward for placing mines should also not be out of whack with the ease of use.
  2. RRRIV

    Ive honestly never gotten "angry" because a mine got me. I never run sweeper hud except on my tanker engi and rush max. Mines are placed where you expect them to be and frequently, i run out of their kill radius anyway. When I place TR mines, I hardly get kills with them anyway for that exact reason.

    If we were to do Something about them, i would make a no deploy zone for mines X meters from spawn rooms + vehicle pads and like, 3-5 meters from other mines. Making restricted zones and making it so they arent layered on each other at vehicle terminals may alleviate some of the frustration associated with them.

    as for what some people want PS2 to be? Halo BTB with no power weapons, air vehicles, power ups, or grenades, the only weapon options being the AR, BR, commando, and sidekick and rocket launchers only spawn when a player is in a vehicle and depsawn instantly when they die. Cant have unfair OHK weapons.
  3. Tormentos

    I think for that to happen, we have to change the way proxy mines work. Instead of a OHK field either in front or around the proxy mine, make it an almost lethal pellet count like a shotgun going directional in case of claymore or straight up for the other proxies, no ms hesitation anymore, doing enough damage to cut down your shield and furthermore do serious damage to HP. Something you can survive once, yet not a second time anytime soon. Due to that, the amount of mines should get a slight buff of carrying more.

    A handheld version doesn't appeal? Alright, off with the idea. UB scanner it is. It could mark mines on the minimap for about 3 minutes and might even put a holographic marker on it that you can spot through walls. As for finding people with it... I don't know about that one. Do you want a scanner for explosive signatures or tech signatures? I mean we can add a scanner version for that as well, but no scanner should do both. Otherwise said scanner itself would become OP.

    And of course, the tech scanner might be fooled by the decoy grenade, feeding him wrong signatures. It could even be to such a degree, that the decoy grenade totally scrambles the tech scanner, making enemy dots appear everywhere. No big argument against this one, since an infiltrator would be forced to 'equip a specific loadout to deal with an unfun mechanic', sacrificing lethal grenades to get rid of a manhunt. :p And it would also give the otherwise underused decoy grenade some more use.

    Well, if you ask me, we should take all the AV mines and drop them into a mine-layer system for a vehicle, maybe even the ANT and multiply the amount one can deploy. AV mines should have a certain EMP debuff added to their usual damage, causing the vehicle to lose control over the steering and slow down at once for 5 to 10 seconds, should have a 3 to 5 meter no deploy zone to the next mine and should be multiplied in numbers, causing entire minefields to be deployed.

    Harrasser or Flash would be the vehicles most affected, since they are the fastest and would probably run into a second one. But frankly, there are enough people complaining about them already, so putting their own mobility against them might be a humbling experience. Keep in mind: I said losing control of the steering and slowing down, not losing control over the ability to jump out of the vehicle itself. Like that, a tank, MBT or Colossus would be stopped at once, and even a Zerg could be ambushed like this, slowing it down to some degree. Nothing is more appealing to a group of HAs than a tank holding still.

    I don't do victimshaming. I run into proxies myself quite often, even as an infiltrator stalker who could take ALL his time looking around. You don't hear me moaning and complaining about it. You know why? Each proxy that gets me reminds me to pay more attention. I paid no attention and paid the price. He got me, good job! That is my mindset. Constantly getting better. I'm playing this game for fun and improvement and I won't have much fun or improve complaining all the time.
  4. Somentine

    At no point did you mention that the c4 would no longer be able to be detonated by the owner upon respawn. Don't try to twist this on me because you forgot to include a very important detail. Yes to c4 staying even after a respawn with the above change, no to it staying even after switching classes, just like every other class deployable - just like mines shouldn't.
  5. Demigan

    Although an option why use pellets? You could just reduce the inner AOE damage to be lower. That way you can better influence the damage it deals per detonation. It also makes it easier to deal consistent damage during lag. Mines are server-side objects so if the server is lagging the mine often detonates later and deals less/no damage. By using pellets it would become far too easy to avoid damage.

    I would like gadgets that are useful beyond one niche application and that do not prevent the player from acting. I was expecting the UB version to simply do its job all the time when holding the weapon, not that the player has to switch to it and send a pulse before switching back. That would defeat the entire purpose of not using a handheld device and it would also restrict it further to only UB weapons for no reason.

    The gadget would detect energy signatures such as the detection equipment on the mines and in-use abilities of enemy players and show them on the minimap. Since it scans in a cone in front of it you would still have to pay attention and not have a cheap neon sign saying "HERE THEM MINES AT BEWARE". Additionally if you minimize the differences between some detection signatures it makes the player only wary of the threat, but not what kind of threat. You could be looking at a Stalker or at a mine for example. This would generate a more even battleground where players can also use it against the users by deploying stuff to distract them.

    Using a decoy grenade would be different since it has uses beyond fooling that one gadget, however weak the grenade is atm. What I am against is loadouts that are useful for a single thing and that single thing is not fun to die to. Like mines that can OHK you.

    Except for the ANT pretty much what I suggested.

    Harrasser or Flash would be the vehicles most affected, since they are the fastest and would probably run into a second one. But frankly, there are enough people complaining about them already, so putting their own mobility against them might be a humbling experience. Keep in mind: I said losing control of the steering and slowing down, not losing control over the ability to jump out of the vehicle itself. Like that, a tank, MBT or Colossus would be stopped at once, and even a Zerg could be ambushed like this, slowing it down to some degree. Nothing is more appealing to a group of HAs than a tank holding still.[/quote]

    Having tanks come to a complete stop might be a bit much, and not because of HA's. Unless you prepared a group of players the chance that more than one would have the time to make use of it is low. But if you got damaged and instantly stopped it would be a rather powerful tool in tank on tank engagements. A wobbly steeringwheel and slowed movement are enough I think.



    Just because you accept a bad element does not mean you arent shaming everyone who steps on one. The amount of attention it takes to place mines is a fraction of the attention you need to check every possible mine placement and reduces your attention for other threats. Its not a fair deal to be OHK'd this way while it took much less effort to place them out of combat and you have to be ready for the potential combat that might happen as you cross a mined area.
  6. Tormentos

    Pellets were an option that came to mind, yet certainly not the only option available. At the end of it, the devs decide how to change things. If a lower AoE is the better thing, so be it.

    Nah, I'm with you there, the UB scanner would be active permanently, maybe limited in range, maybe limited in running time, but it won't be a different fire mode, that would be counterproductive. Switch it on like a laser or a flashlight and have an extra added to the minimap. It could even give of an audible, repeating pulse each second or half a second. Maybe even a higher beep once you found something becoming higher as the signal gets closer. :D Of course only to build up your nerve costume. Something you can make out from a distance to give at least some kind of warning to infiltrators to listen to and get the hint that the are now in serious trouble. With flashlights, you get the visible cue, with this scanner, you should get an audible cue. You said 45 degrees would be too much, how about 33 degree?
    [IMG]


    Well, if it detects energy signatures, it should detect ANY energy signature there is. Which means it could be a proxy mine, a spitfire turret, a canopy, a shield recharging field, a hardlight barrier, a tank mine, a spawn beacon, a HA overshield active or a cloaking device active. I will exclude motion spotter and recon darts, since they show up on the minimap already in some range. But an overshield or cloak deactivated should not be detectable at all again. I guess it depends on the range we want to give this little thing.

    Well, the Sunderer already has more than enough roles to fit and the ANT is the only vehicle that makes sense, since it is more an industrial vehicle / support vehicle.

    The slowing down to a standstill was suggested out of simplicity. Forcing down speed to zero for a couple of seconds is easy to program, making the wheel go haywire sounds more complex. That and the thought of making mines more an area of denial tool instead of OHK placements were the reason to suggest that.
  7. Scroffel5

    There doesn't need to be a specifically designed hard counter tool to defend against everything in the game, especially not mines. The only time you REQUIRE an implant to find mines is when they are underwater on Hossin, and after you have died to them a few times, you know that the water is a trap, a minefield, a death zone.

    If you are having problems with mines, equip Minesweeper. If you aren't or you die to them and don't care, don't. If you don't want to check corners, don't. Mines don't need a nerf because you don't want to do something, because face it, you have two options. Don't check the corner and possibly die to a mine or do check the corner and possibly die to an enemy. Actually, you have three, the latter being to choose Minesweeper. And if you end up dying anyways, respawn. At the end of a day, if you don't spot the mines, they may not even kill you unless you walk slowly on them or hit every tank mine and proceed to die, but if you do spot them, pew pew and its gone. 150 nanites wasted.
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  8. Demigan

    Just because there are 2 options does not mean they are goof options.

    And yes there isnt a weapom/tool that deals with all things, however there is a clear distinction between items that have a single niche role and items that can do multiple things at a time. Niche things are almost useless and rarely picked for good reasons while the others are used almost exclusively in the game.
    Denying that there are good reasons to avoid something does not make for a good argument to accept bad gameplay.
  9. PlanetBound

    Get the implants.
  10. Demigan

    As should be obvious from the reactions there are enough players who dont enjoy mines and the "get the implants" reaction is about as useful as "git gud", and as insulting as well. Why dont we instead look at a way to make this fun for more people instead of insulting the players who dislike it?

    Also I have a problem with your flavortext, you cant counter the friction that keeps a lightbulb in place by modifying the earth's rotation.
    • Up x 1
  11. PlanetBound

    Hello Demigod. It means holding the bulb and turning the earth rather than...
  12. csvfr

    One of the worst types of selfish noobs in this game are those who mine doorways or stairtops during a pointhold. 5 out of 6 times these mines will explode due to grenades killing whoever is covering the door, thus allowing the enemy to breach or otherwise putting a strain on the medics. This should be a pro-tip on the loading screen, something like "Don't place explosives where your allies are taking cover. Mines are volatile and explode from hostile grenades and/or bullets"
  13. Tormentos

    That goes for NC and VS proxies, but not for TR claymore mines, who are directional instead of omnidirectional. Except of course, you are talking about tank mines to stop a certain MAX rush, then you are correct, these are omnidirectional regardless of faction. I can only imagine people are doing it in the hopes that the enemies, once they overcome these allies on the stairtops, rush forward to walk into the mines. Something TR claymores are not good at anyway.
  14. BlackFox

    As if anybody reads the tooltips... You'd be surprised how many people didn't know that crouching makes you invisible from motion sensors, according to the countless times I was asked why I don't show up on them while moving
  15. Scroffel5


    This is what he said dude:

    He specifically said that if it is hit by a bullet, it should detonate, but it wouldn't give a kill to the owner of the C4 block, only the one who "detonated" it by shooting it, in the same way that proxy mines denotated by a bullet can kill, for instance, the one who is placing it.

    So yes, he didn't specifically mention that, but it was implied. In this case, I agree with him. They should all stay, for you spent nanites on placing them. It doesn't make sense for them (any undestroyed nanite placeable) to despawn just because those like it have been made to despawn on class change when they can potentially help your team.
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  16. Tormentos

    To be precise, if the block of C4 is not detonated and a new one is placed instead, THEN of course the latest blocks should despawn. Then the rule applies that every new deployable replaces the old one.
  17. Somentine


    You can try to twist it however you want, the quote is there and makes no note of disallowing the thrower to detonate the c4, which is a current mechanic of the game. And no, it was not implied, not in the least; the mechanic for it to sit there like a 'weakpoint' already exists whether the player is alive or dead, and should the player be dead and then get a rez, it can still be detonated. You'd have to suspend logic and ignore current mechanics for it NOT to be implied that the player could still use the c4 after respawn.

    Don't make excuses for people, especially when they try to play the victim.
  18. Scroffel5

    I am going to ignore the stupidity of what you just said and make my own statement that is in line with what the other user meant when he made his post.

    If you place a block of C4, die before you can detonate it, and respawn, the c4 should still be there and be able to be blown up via getting shot. However, if you die and respawn, you shouldn't be able to detonate it with your detonator.

    I'd like to go a step further and make it so that if you resupply a placeable explosive and place more, it shouldn't despawn, since you did spend nanites on it. Now you have the choice to put down your three tank mines, resupply, put down more, resupply, and so on and so forth, of course continuing to cost you nanites. You should be able to do the same with AI mines and C4, but not things like hardlight barriers. It's a risky strat to try to place more and more mines or tank mines, but you should be able to do it since it costs you nanites.
  19. Tormentos

    I think the reason why they limited the number of mines or explosives was not due to fairness, yet simply to limit server work. You have to keep sending the signal that there are mines in that plot of land over there to maybe hundreds of players. If the numbers of mines go into the hundreds or even thousands, the server has to work quite a bit more. If not for that limitation, you could simply let a zerg enter a Biolab, that you boobytrapped every nook and cranny for several hours and push a button to send the whole lot of them back to the Sunderer. Or boobytrap the SCU room and blow it up to get rid of all the entrenched fighters inside at once.
  20. Scroffel5

    Ah yes, I see.

    And while those ideas are cool and would take a really long time, you'd also have to never die to pull it off, otherwise you have to shoot every C4.