Cloaking takes away the fun

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by McMansikka, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. JustGotSuspended



    ^^^^

    This is the core of the issue. At the end of the day, when something's broken and the players know it, they no longer respect the opponent and it really starts to take away the fun aspect of the engagement and the game overall.

    Stuff like infils, a2g, berserker maxes, the general vehicle vs infantry....it's all cheese for players to get kills who otherwise wouldn't be able to without that crutch.

    A good player will be able to pick up any weapon, be it lmg, carbine, shotgun, flare gun and do good. A bad player will need to abuse broken mechanics to perform well, or at least try. This is where it gets annoying, that a player who invests time in the game, invests on becoming better, and helping others progress as well, can get outmatched simply by someone choosing a broken playstyle. It strips the game of competitiveness, and while Planetside 2 isn't meant to be fair, it's unreasonable to add such mechanics that effectively counter skill - or eliminate the need for it in the first place.

    The infil is just another one of these baffling things that doesn't belong in the game - and wasn't even in such a state initially - yet somehow managed to avoid nerfs other classes got.

    And this nanoweave nerf that makes shotgun and sniper rifle bodyshots even deadlier than before (since no one runs nanoweave)...

    just smh at the state of the game nowadays
    • Up x 3
  2. Demigan

    The time invested isnt that big unless you make it big. And the effort is far too rewarding compared to the effort other classes put in. I could spend twice the time on any other class and only get a fraction of the advantage a sniper gets... and most of that is because of the safety when shooting.
    And when an enemy comes to your position you are at the least disadvantage compared to other classes. You have detection equipment and a get-out-of-jail cloak that give you unparalleled security compared to other classes to get out of such situations.

    The biggest reason players still get caught as Infils is because lazy classes give you lazy players. Just like HESH farmers an Infil has such securities like being able to spot, target and fire from stealth that they stop trying to guard themselves.

    If we want to talk about lazy mentalities then Infil snipers are at the top. Virtually no risk while moving to their position, little risk searching and targeting a thread, tiny bit of risk when decloaking and firing before jumping behind cover.

    Also if we want countersnipers to be able to engage a sniper on equal terms then we need to stop them being able to fire from stealth. That instantly equalizes them and doesnt make countersniping a "I hope my enemy gives me more than a fraction of a second to fire while he got seconds to line up his shot" situation.

    Thats the point, 25% more recharge would do little. A "in some cases they cant fire as much!!" Solution does not really do much on the grand scheme of things. A few players might take more time behind cover, a few players take a bit less time per shot. The actual problems the sniper Infil causes arent resolved and SMG Infils are still almost unchanged as well.

    If you want to reduce lazy playstyles the Infil is low hanging fruit. Remove the ability to fire from stealth and players have to be more active when using snipers (and SMG's).

    Also a note: defeating a lazy playstyle like a HESH sheller with C4 is less easy and lazy than you make it out to be. The whole point of HESH shelling infantry is that it is a lazy playstyle due to the securities it offers. The C4 player has to avoid detection and fight any enemies on its path to get to the HESH player, which is in no way a guarantee. So you are victim shaming: "you are lazy because you dont want to put in efforts and take risks to defeat one of the laziest playstyles in the game and that makes you, not the HESH spammer, the problem!".
    • Up x 2
  3. csvfr

    Since the nanonweave nerf the resist shield is a viable alternative for HA and what I personally use. It allows to tank one sniper round to the head if at full health. So skilled, knowledgeable HAs can still peek around corners and hold points while being unkillable for the invisible threat. Light assaults can use their movement and jetpack to throw of the aim of all but the most twitchy snipers. Engineer is not really a fighting class but new players might man the MANA turret and become an easy sniper target. This is a skill issue. Medics should not expose themselves that much in the first place. I just can't see how snipers are unbalanced and how it is impossible to take precautions against them.
  4. JibbaJabba

    A skilled, knowledgeable HA is not going to peek a corner with his shield up just in case there is a sniper there. That's almost as bad as peeking a corner already ADS. :p

    But really are you suggesting here the Cloak doesn't need adjustment because the HA has a shield he can leave up all the time to protect him from being one framed?

    C'mon man. You want all of us to swallow this tripe just so you don't have to admit the cloak needs fixed? No.

    This is a bunch of "L2P" bull **** mixed with useless suggestions that won't fix anything.

    And strawmen too. Engineers just don't use the MANA turret? LOLz. Nobody is complaining about a sniper shooting a stationary player man.

    The complaint here is that a player turns invisible. Not fair. Try to get that.
    • Up x 2
  5. Demigan

    As Jibba points out, this isnt a solution. Even if this were a working solution it would still mean that any player has to become a resist shield HA and peek corners with resist on. Any other class, except for another infiltrator, is now no longer an option.

    You cannot ask players to either pick one of two classes and accept bad gameplay if they dont.

    Also about the "dont expose yourself". Thats kinda hard to do with a class designed to get into a flanking position at any range. Just imagine that resist shield HA as he tries to get to his target destination: he peeks a corner with the shield on, then what? Run with resist on and be 25% slower while signaling his presence? Turn it off and risk being shot then? Run to the next cover and turn his shield off there, only to find that a sniper in the flank has that spot in its sights? Or be shot halfway between his previous cover and the next so the sniper can hit him twice or more? What if you want to be a Medic or Engineer?

    Now the thing is that infiltrators are lazy, lazy playstyles. I play LA on the rooftops, supposedly the most vulnerable to snipers and I rarely ever get shot or even shot at. This is because like all lazy playstyles people unlearn basic skills. Why fire at a moving LA and reveal your position if there are many easier targets to shoot?
    However that does not excuse a bad gameplay. If over 60% of the players is unable to perform a certain skill you cannot claim "its a skill issue so lets keep it like it is!". Games at their core are supposed to be fun. And while some games like DarkSouls are designed to be punishing, they are designed to be punishing so the player can enjoy themselves and learn to beat the game progressively. PS2 on the other hand is set up as a shooter where players get to react to one another. All classes get to react to one another most of the time with a few edge-cases, and the few times they cant its a CQC weapon which has severe downsides for the class. All except the Infil. Even without the stealth, snipers are a class above that of the CQC weapons in the safety they provide for its user. The added protection of firing from cloak pushes it far beyond unfair.

    OHK mechanics do not have a place in PS2 to begin with. They should instead deal tremendous damage and nerf the opponent if they would have OHK'd a full health player. But since that isnt going to happen we can at least make fighting a long-range OHK weapon more fair by removing its ability to fire from cloak.
    • Up x 1
  6. LodeTria

    I don't really see people putting tanks into tight spaces much at all anymore, mostly cus of c4 everywhere. Becomes quite hard to avoid that massive burst damage in an amp station or whatever. Better of using a Kobalt sunderer, ant or harasser instead of a tank.

    You do get goofballs who put skyguards on airpads sometimes thanks to anvils, usually the crown, but they can just be ignored anyway.

    Yeah on the infantry side they can quite annoying sometimes. I've wondered if they should make the CQC bolts have damage drop off like a carbine or AR, so they have to be within 10 meters to get a 1hko. That way it should be much easier to see them before they ding someone.
  7. synkrotron

    it truly saddens me to think that my playstyle causes so much unhappiness
  8. csvfr

    The point of the resist shield is to activate it before getting shot. It requires a proactive shield activation when used correctly and works great when having the initiative but sucks when getting jumped. This means to activate the shield when turning a corner and in other circumstances where there is a reasonable possibility of getting shot, before actually taking a hit, and this includes sniper fire. Since equipping it my death toll due to cloakers has been reduced by more than half. However the MANA turret can't really be used without becoming sniper fodder. It should have at least a 50% damage reduction for bullets going through the small gap.

    This is where teamwork comes into play. The medic should be unexposed in order to revive a peeking player. If the peeker is not shot or starts running to the next position, it is probably safe for the medic to do so too who may follow up, and actually should do so in order to keep reviving during a push. As long as there is a medic nearby, peeking can be done risk-free by any class.
  9. Somentine

    Wait, what are you doing peaking a corner that you know a sniper is watching, and doing it 25% slower? What are you even trying to achieve? You think you're going to out shoot a sniper?

    And if you don't know, why do you think peaking a corner going 25% slower is a good thing, anyway?


    Beyond how stupid and basic this 'advice' is, why is there teamwork for one side but not the other? Who's to say that the sniper doesn't also have someone ready to follow up on his kill? And no, being killed and forcing a medic to revive you is not, in any way, risk free.
    • Up x 1
  10. csvfr

    Corners should be turned slowly to have line of sight to only one enemy at a time? This way avoiding to take damage from an additional enemy to follow up on your death? If speed is much of an issue there are implants for that. Of course there is a difference between peeking a corner and turning it, the first being a quick "in and out" to get an overview and the second being when prepared for engagements. Activating the resist shield when turning a corner or covering an area has few negative drawbacks, and is when snipers are the most dangerous. Get hit? Then pop a medkit or try to kill the sniper if in range.
  11. Demigan

    This is a giant fallacy.

    You expect the other classes to do teamwork to defeat the Infil, while the Infil is not required to do teamwork.

    How is that fair again?
    • Up x 2
  12. csvfr

    I'm saying the medic is a teamwork oriented class. Why on earth would you solo play as a medic? The revive ability is only useful with fallen allies around, the shield regen and heal can help yourself but equally strenghten allies. As a medic you stick around other players, it is as simple as that.
  13. Demigan

    You can also say the Infil is a teamwork oriented class. Its recon darts are designed for letting everyone know the positions of your enemies. Yet there is a stark difference once more between the Infil class and the Medic: the Infil has a fire-and-forget mechanic for its teamwork (both recon and nerfing with EMP) and just like you do now isnt expected to use it. The Medic needs to lose all its combat capabilities as a combat medic in order to heal and revive players one at a time.

    The Medic is a combat Medic. It is not required to do teamwork and with its self-heal and AR is a decent but understandably underused solo class. Saying that Medics are only there to be safeguarded and work in teams is just bad stereotyping, the Medic should have plenty of reasons and power to go out alone just like the Infil.

    Its just grasping at straws. "its ok for infils to be bad in comparison to infils because they need to do teamwork!" Is no excuse to keep the infil as it is (and no excuse either to beef up the medic's capabilities beyond teamwork class).
  14. csvfr

    I'm also leaning towards the opinion that having a grope with infils is a skill related issue. Considering the medic as a solo class would explain a lot. The shield and the medkit, the jetpack and the C4, the tank and the repair tool, all exceed the medic in solo assault focused gameplay. If you want to there may be a possibility to run up to a tank and C4 it as a medic but skilled players use the jetpack, tank or rocket launcher. This is why infiltrators are OP from your perspective, you want to do whatever you want without other players hindering.
  15. Demigan

    No, not at all. We've reached the point where you invent my intentions and skills rather than defend your view. That isnt surprising because when I asked why other classes are expected to do teamwork and the Infil is allowed to be powerful without it you just said "the medic is team-oriented". But describing how things are is no reason to keep it like that and avoids answering the actual question.

    Once again: you are defending low-skill, lazy playstyles like HESH shelling and Infils by saying other classes have to be skilled. If we want to talk about skill-related issues then defending the low-skill infils is a pretty clear indicator to me who is missing that skill.

    I mean come on, I quite literally told you that even as C4 fairy it takes more skill to defeat the HESH cheeser, but suddenly you are claiming I want the Medic to defeat tanks with C4 with ease because I said the Infiltrator should not so much more powerful solo as the Medic (or any other class).
    I mean where the hell did the "Medic needs to beat tanks with ease" even come from except you?

    Your point is then still mute though. The Infil once again has a very powerful fire-and-forget teamwork tool at his disposal with powerful use for solo play as well. The Medic is only useful after the fact and has no fire-and-forget tools. Even the AOE heal requires you to judge the distance to your wounded allies and how hurt they are so as not to waste energy. Only the deployable shield is fire-and-forget but far more placement-specific due to its AOE size.

    If you are such a paragon for skill you should be on my side: make the infil and other ultra lazy and generally low skill classes and playstyles less lazy and low-skill, but put them on par with other classes. That should be the goal: classes and playstyles to offer variety but no unfair advantages if everyone plays to their strengths. And while you might now claim that they already do that they simply do not and it has repeatedly explained to you why.
  16. csvfr

    In one post you say:
    In the next:
    beyond the claim that medics should play a more solo oriented role. I feel like when arguing with you, words are put in my mouth that I've not said and than you contradict yourself. All I've said is that the other classes have counters and strengths that par the infil.
  17. Demigan

    I dont contradict myself and I dont put words in your mouth. You attacked me personally though.

    It is not a contradiction to say that medics who pick up nearby players are valuable targets and to also to point out that just because the Medic's actions can be valuable does not mean the way those actions are performed are fun and fair.
  18. csvfr

    This is simply not good enough. If you can't come up with an indisputable reason for why infiltrators are overpowered and takes away "the fun" then your side loses. I've already given plenty of counterarguments, don't know you and absolutely think you may be great guy, love your personality and don't attack your person,
  19. Demigan

    This is the worst argument yet. You want me to offer indisputable arguments, but every time I do you just come up with non-arguments to dispute it, a good example is how you just explained how the situation is rather than why the situation should stay as it is. Its impossible to make it undisputed if the opposition wants to dispute it even if its the clear truth.

    You did just attack me personally by claiming it was my skill that was lacking, then inventing a scenario where I expect Medics to be able to C4 tanks without being hindered.
    Hell you even tried to offer the non-solution of 25% slower recharge rate to solve the issue that you now indirectly say doesnt exist?

    Here is the simple simple argument:
    Shooting from cloak with a OHK weapon (or even just SMG's) is a far too powerful tool. It is a unique method of attack only the Infil can perform and it offers more safety and capability than any other class can, in a way that no other class can.

    I dont know why I have to say this but then again, you are defending HESH farmers and telling us that you need to use skill to defeat one of the least skillful playstyles in the game and that anyone who has an issue with that has a skill issue rather than the HESH farmer.
  20. Liewec123

    Honestly they should just add the firing delay that minor cloak has.
    It would fix the issues of latency making it seem that infils have killed people before finishing uncloaking,
    It would also make it less frustrating for a stalker to just camp in corners and 2 shot people with commi/underboss/pilot,
    Since you can hear them uncloaking you will have a moment to react before they start shooting.

    But saying that I find playing at high resolution makes cloakers easy to spot anyway, I also ALWAYS have flashlight on my sidearm.