Cyrious made a video about Skilled Players

Now you're just being silly.

It's like I'm trying to explain nanobiology to a wall.

That's got nothing to do with what I implied.

Just do the research, really it's not hard to find a bunch of informative articles with varying levels of detail that come from trusted/validated sources. Take a second to read a few and realize ho you've been trying to go against the fundamentals of anti-cheat detection (ironically, the first thing that comes up is "cheaters are always caught".

Until you can make a single sentence that has some form of merit or that demonstrates you've made some basic effort to research the subject, I'll just let you soliloquy from now.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_online_games

https://www.unilad.co.uk/technology...-found-a-way-to-identify-video-game-cheaters/

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/322332744.pdf

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jweisz/courses/docs/weisz03_DetectingCheaters.pdf

The video is good - in fact so is the other reference material - but we need to be realistic about what DBG can afford to actually do about it.

Do they organize a team to review certain situations and ask whether they consider what they are viewing to be cheating to then feed this into deep learning that can then be used to search for cheaters ? Valve might be able to afford that - not sure DBG can.

There is strong evidence to suggest that they have done some of the things mentioned though (such as infiltrating bulletin boards and forums) but I just don't think they have the cash to do any of the esoteric cheat-busting that others might be able to afford.
I wish they did - but I fear they don't.

DBG has a partnership with steam.

There's no data to suggest what they have and don't have. I agree with you, it does appear that in game reports aren't processed as fast as they should be, if they even are at all. The fact that support tickets are the best way to get quick results (seriously those guys have taken action in under 2 hours) suggests that DBG shares their resources across their games. I don't think there's a team or budget set just for ps2 mods. I think the guys dealing with cheaters do so for DBG as a whole, and are allocated to whatever specific game requests support from that ticket. It's my theory, but I don't think it's much of a stretch.

By common pooling their resources between their games, they are able to afford more resources and redirect them as needed. Keep in mind DBG is still a multi-billion dollar company.

You didn't actually read or watch any of your own links did you?

1. They contradict your "there's not many cheaters" statement, all of them mention that cheating is proliferating, that it's hard to stop and almost impossible to bring to 0 unless we are talking about far-future technology.
2. They confirm what I've already said. The video for example mentions how anti-cheats work that go onto the client's machine, and that these aren't foolproof as they can only detect what they know is a cheat.
3. 3 of your links are about future potential anti-cheat methods that are still being developed, and aren't necessarily going to be useful in the long run. This link for example: https://www.unilad.co.uk/technology...-found-a-way-to-identify-video-game-cheaters/ Is working for CSGO's server-side hit detection. Key is that it's still a work in progress and does not work for clientside hit detection where the packets aren't manipulated to fool the server.
4. All of them basically raise all red flags for PS2's anti-cheat system. There's not much done on all fronts except the BattleEye system. As far as we are aware there's practically no one checking in on reports or screenshots to see if someone is cheating or not. Also of note is that most of these prototype anti-cheat systems aren't about catching cheaters red-handed, but rather about checking for high probabilities of cheating.

But sure, I'm clueless.

Dude I haven't clicked on a one of the links, just watching you guys discuss it.

If they collectively say there is a widespread cheating problem in planetside I'll not waste my time. I can see with my own eyes each and every night that there isn't widespread cheating.

I'll be on tonight for many hours. As I often do. What I expect:

• It will be rare if I catch someone clipping something like a router or even getting themselves into a wall. Slim chance I see this tonight.
• I can count on both hands the number of times I've reeeaally reviewed a shadowplay to see what some sketching **** was about. So I doubt that will happen tonight.
• Somebody will probably one frame me in the face at somepoint because of sketchy network. I may even do the same to them unbeknownst to me. Say 70% chance tonight
• I will some some whacky **** like a guy running past a mine and it blowing up his friend behind him. Say 50%
• I may die to someone I clip dumped and he won't show damage. Say 50%

Realistic chances that I encounter an actual cheater? Low enough it rounds to zero.

That is my subjective expectation of my gaming tonight.

New/Less experienced players? I think there is a fairly high chance that they encounter an "actual cheater" tonight. If not themselves then someone in their platoon will announce that they did.

Nice. Well, now I know how much you and jibba are worth taking seriously when you ask a question that I already answered in the very post you quoted.

I would argue DBG doesn't even do what they can afford and that's the problem - especially when there's reason to believe they would have more of the cash to do more of the fancier stuff if they made any attempt at all.

When trying out a free to play, pvp game for the first time, nearly all players recognize that there will be cheaters (or they're so new to gaming in general they don't even know what a cheater is yet!); that's the default position. But everyone's willing to tolerate it to some degree. As long as a game feels like cheating is at the baseline level or lower, most people won't quit specifically because of cheating.

But PS2 doesn't have that impression. PS2 just so happens to have hundreds of strange behaviors that may or may not be cheating (although, from a new player's perspective, 100% of those situations are cheating. As opposed to the more realistic 2% or whatever it is...) It also has a community which goes out of its way to latch on to any one of these behaviors to excuse everything, as if the possibility of a cheater cheating then hiding behind the same excuse never occurred to them.

Y'know, roughly 90% of players who were interested enough in PS2 to try playing it stopped being interested once they played PS2. DBG (even SOE)'s tried just about everything and nothing's had a long-term impact on getting those players back. Maybe it's time to check out the whacky idea of "fixing player-related bugs so cheaters have fewer places to hide; which is easier than developing a new anti-cheat system and improves the new player experience in one go."

It won't be an easy task for them, but I feel it's what the game needs. As it is now, getting shot by a legitimate player or a cheater can feel equally as suspicious as the other (unless you have years of experience that can be applied in some way.) At the bare minimum, you need those legit players to feel legit. It will make the cheaters easier for everyone to identify.

Now I'm real excited for any replies to this, 'cause "make cheaters stand out more" seems like an idea only cheaters would oppose as far as I can see. There could be discussion on the specifics, sure, but the end goal...?

None of them address ps2 directly, more so the techniques/fundamentals regarding cheating and why it's always caught, and the methods that exist to efficiently deal with cheating.

Idk what demi watched but if you click on the video, you don't even have to watch it, just look at the description and it'll immediately contradict what he's claiming.

Any particular evidence or whatever you wanna bring forward to argue that? Because we've already linked a bunch to show they do ban cheaters and take the issue seriously. What made you decide they're not?

This is key. You're right, it's not the 2-3 cheaters that pop on once in a blue moon to warp around and aimbot people in a MAX that are killing the game. It's the perception of new/ignorant players who aren't used to the game's sloppy implementation/mechanics.

It's why it's important to try and respond to these fantastical claims with facts and logical reasoning, to prevent fear generated from that ignorance from spreading as Cyrious mentioned.

We don't excuse anything. We file lengthy reports and tk cheaters when we find them. The thing is, cheaters are extremely rare to find, whereas accusations of cheating occur even in the silliest of scenarios. A guy was mad I killed him with a single burst from my pilot and called me an aimbot. He said he had his shields up and it shouldn't have killed him. He then did the math to prove even if all my shots landed in the head it wouldn't have killed hm. Trying to reason with him, I pointed out an aimbot would not modify my damage output in any way, it would just ensure my shots land. The more reasonable explanation was that his shield wasn't up on my screen (due to lag) and so I was able to kill him in a burst. But no, cheating sounds more exciting.

It's not at us that people should get mad for explaining/dismissing behavior that isn't cheating. It's not a sign people are defending cheaters, apologizing for them or whatever. It's a sign people are throwing around accusations lightly, without understanding their effects. Those who take the time to seriously analyze and understand the problem determine that in 99.999999% of "cheating" scenarios, it's not cheating - and they're right.

Yup. This is one of the suggestions I and many other made. It would be a lot easier to figure out cheats if there wasn't the possibility for funky things to happen. I mean people don't even have to modify files or anything to place objects/themselves inside other objects. Half the time the game does this for them! I definitely agree ironing out bugs would make the game feel more polished, and perhaps help lower cheating accusations.

As daunting/impossible as the task is, I would much rather they focus on doing this than adding more explosions/cheese or weather elements to farm us in game.

All of you are just cheater apologists or are cheater-phobes!

Clearly, every time I die it's because someone is hacking. I mean why else would I be bested?

Seriously this "discussion" is epic.

As usual I'll reckon the truth is somewhere in the middle. The game clearly is not overrun by cheaters, but occasionally fishy things happen that can not be easily explained by the usual shenanigans.
Is every instance of that a cheater? Possible, but probably not. But it still warrants a closer look, even if only by the one it happened to. There is no reason not to try and get rid of as many cheaters as possible.
As for the base idea of subtle cheats, OF COURSE they get developed to be more discreet and less noticable than their predecessors. For the same reasons pickpockets started using staged distractions or the old "bumping into someone" trick. Because doing it out in the open with people not occupied increases the odds of being found out and punished. And while there are people for whom this is no concern apparently (like obvious wallhacks, moving through terrain in a way that is clearly not a fluke glitch), most would like to minimize the risk.

Yes. But cheating should really be the last resort, the final explanation someone concludes to explain weird behavior. It shouldn't be the firs thing that comes to mind, especially when regarding "subtle cheaters". The fact is cheating is extremely rare and frequent use of hackusations would basically amount to associating someone's wealth to winning the lottery. Ofc it's possible to win the lottery, and that would likely make you rich. It's however not a common enough occurrence to be in the top list of reasons for why someone is rich.

It's a poor comparison that would lead me to disagree with that part of the post. First off these are still the main/primary techniques used by pick-pocketers. Same goes with hackers. Most are just re-using code/programs that they have no idea how to use. Script kiddies, as someone pointed out. Can't expect these types of people to fine tune their aimbots or whatever hacks they bought/stole from someone.

Most cheaters anyways pick the blatant route because they are looking for rage-tells and just want to make someone miserable. Besides, they know they'll get banned anyways, so go big or go home right?

That minuscule portion of the already small cheating playerbase attempts to mask their cheats I can maybe believe. Haven't seen anyone do this, but as you point out it wouldn't be mind-boggling. However, careful. "Suble" cheaters would only appear so in the eyes of other players. In the end, they are still manipulating something they shouldn't, and that will always be detectable by the devs/mods/system. It's simply the nature of how hacking/cheating works.

That's a pretty big middle ground; the truth is absolutely not anywhere in the middle.

It only warrants a closer look when you actually understand the mechanics of the game. As you even said, lots of fishy but 'legit' mechanics.

Bogs down report tickets for actual issues. It's one of the reasons why reporting outside of the game is way more effective.

Fortunately many hackers are very vocal about what they do and practically confess in regards to their hacking. For example on emerald there is the outfit [HAX] - The Emerald League of Hackers. With an average K/D > 3 and leaders having top 0.5% stats, no wonder there is some "hearsay" that certain outfits are a bunch of hackers. Or on soltech, there's [1EXE] and [3EXE] - Team Aimbot EXE, with also a lot of what may be thought of as high skilled players if looking only at their stats.

Yeah there's also AIMBOT and other names/outfits of the sort. These guys are just good players abusing of the naivety and paranoia of the community.

Well, aside from the question whether they are hackers or not, that IS a bit like covering oneself in honey and walking up to a beehive, isn't it? It may be "trolling the bees", but it could happen one or the other gets stung.

You do realize it's a joke right?

"I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything." (Bart Simpson, 1990)

Nice to see this 30 year old defense still being used after such a long time.

In a world where you can't objectively prove that even 1+1=2 without falling back on axioms (Peano), so a set of clearly stated base facts that you chose to believe in, it of cause remains highly effective.

Apart from very specific testing setups, you can't really prove someone was cheating. Found the code of aimbot.exe running in a background process on someone's computer - how to prove he really used it ? Even if he admits he used it - how to prove he isn't lying ? And if he can reliably demonstrate he can replicate the shots and general performance from that session without that program running in the back, that still doesn't prove he didn't use it anyway.

You can never know for sure. No player, no coder, the best detection algorithms in existance or thinkable, all can only ever acertain a perceived likelyhood. And no, DBG has no way to know better either, so someone being banned or not is also not proof of anything.

If cheaters exist or not depends upon what you personally define as a cheater, so of cause players will never be able to agree on the amount of cheating going on, all while no side is even really wrong, because they are all talking about different things, just using the same name for it.

It boils down to what kind of evidence is good enough for you to accept as 'proof'. Without a common understanding about this, discussion is useless, and will go in a circle with one side demanding proof that can't exist, while the other is taking accusations as proof, which is both equally silly.

Oh. My. God. Becky.

Stats aside, did you just use the name itself "the emerald league of hackers" as evidence?

This is the crap we're dealing with here.

High stats are not evidence of cheating man. It's just evidence they are good. People like you are the exact reason they use names like this. You're a meme. You'll hackusate them to no end and NEVER accept otherwise. So yeah they'll play along. Everyone wants the next Prokor and you're a good candidate.

I don't think you're ever going to have your "aha!" moment and realize it's skill. Maybe I'm wrong.

One day when frustrated enough to end my session I stopped taking "get gud" as an insult and started treating it as a constructive suggestion. It was that or quit. I sought help. The very people that dunked on me now help me. They still dunk on me mind you, but they do so respectfully the way a black belt would do to a white belt. In the meantime I started enjoying playing planetside a whole lot more. Way less "walk back from spawn" choose-your-own-adventure. And once I knew, the amount of hacking I saw out there melted away.

He does not.

dude prolly thinks I'm an actually TR spy