Buffing AA

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by UberNoob1337101, Jan 1, 2021.

  1. UberNoob1337101

    This was one of the parts of the megathread I had to trim, and I think it will suit it's own thread better as a lot of players are allergic to A2G (A mossie allergy is unfortunate, but who's allergic to bricks?) ... anyhow.



    Out of the box, TTK needs to be faster for AA. Unless the pilot is ignoring damage taken or gets surprised by 4+ damage sources, they're very unlikely to die to ground AA alone. A general TTK table would look like this :

    ESFs die to every dumbfire in 1 hit (ES or Decimator), or are left at 5% health if they have Composite Armor.
    ESFs are at 30% health when hit by one lock-on, and can survive 2 rockets with a sliver of health with Composite Armor.
    ESFs receive almost twice the damage from flak.
    If people want it, Daltons should OHK any ESF, composite armor or not.

    ESFs should rely almost entirely on speed and maneuverability to survive. Not saying that ESFs can't be sturdy with Composite Armor + Fire Suppression, but in general they should be glass cannons, not DPS/tank hybrids.


    Liberators are left at 10% health from two ES dumbfires, die outright from 2 Decimator hits. They receive significantly more damage versus flak (not double, but I think +50% is OK).
    As for lock-ons, I think that 3 hits to burn, 4 to kill is fine for Liberators.

    The key issue with Liberators IMO is that they both have great survivability - directly from great HP to Afterburners letting them escape many bad situations. Increased damage isn't massive but it's more than enough to make sure Libs think twice about diving Skyguards. As it currently is, Liberators can tank 3 deci hits before they die.

    It should be a matter of spotting, mindgames and aim in a Skyguard vs Liberator fight, and I think Skyguards always had the shorter end of the stick in such fight.


    Galaxies burn in 3 hits from ES dumbfires and die from 4, and die in 3 Decimator hits.
    Galaxies receive +25% damage from flak.

    Galaxies need better armament, a slight reduction in maneuverability and slightly worse survivability. Better armament and better self defense so a Galaxy isn't just a super tanky squad dump, but also a very useful CAS vehicle for a squad/platoon.


    Lock-ons need more range (500m) and should be distance-based : fast lock-on times up close, slow locks far away. This is to provide a balance between "3 guys instantly delete all aircraft from render range" and "G2A missiles don't do anything" : If there's an G2A nest, you're either locked on immediately and can dodge the missiles or run away from their lock-on range, or the G2A can decide to not lock on and try to bait you closer. Again, I don't believe AA/A2G balance needs to be very rock-paper-scissors, it should mostly come down to strategy and aiming/dodging.


    The Skyguard should go in either of two directions (ideally, it could change between both with attachments)

    1. Have the realistic powers of flak (shreds infantry, kills air fast, can pierce and deal great damage to small vehicles like harassers/flashes). Most effective against ESFs/Valkyries, good against Libs/Galaxies, can fight off Harassers but falls flat against heavier armor. Also, better accuracy and CoF spread, it's a bit too inaccurate against small targets right now.

    For it's effectiveness against infantry, I think that always doing indirect damage is a nice bonus, but direct hits should be rewarded more. Indirect damage to finish off and scare enemy infantry, with direct hits more than capable of a lot of damage sounds good to me.


    2. Get a full modern AA transformation : lots of limited supply ATGMs that are useful for both AV and AA, a powerful autocannon that has high velocity shells with weak damage per shot, but good sustained damage. Overall meant to increase Skyguard DPS while giving it a trump card against ground vehicles and passing Liberators. The idea is that ATGMs can be customised : do you want faster velocity, split into multiple submunitions, higher alpha damage but lower speed depends on what you want to equip, but it gives some room for player choice and ES traits.


    Both Ranger and Walker are solid but if I had to change something, Ranger gets the most AA buffs, Walker becomes slightly harder to use but gets better gun depression so it can fight back against infantry.


    Lastly, the Max Burster arm. I think the same treatment of flak getting indirect damage against infantry would be fine so they aren't completely helpless. Again, accuracy buff needed, but overall I think the ability to fight air while not being useless against infantry is good enough.



    Now, on the flipside, I want to get a few minor buffs to air and G2A countermeasures if this happens :

    To make AA more interactive and reward great pilots a bit, I'd suggest to give lock-on missiles their own unique signature, trail and HP (kind of like the Phoenix). Shooting some projectiles out of the air should be possible, especially for big targets like Liberators and Galaxies. It's the future, point defense of some kind should be expected on heavier air vehicles. New point defense weapons would be nice. If we get very strong point defense, I'd expect that lock-ons should do about as much damage as dumbfires.

    For ESFs, Racer High Speed and Dogfighting airframe need some buffs. They're not competitive with Hover airframe, and I feel that Racer could fit right in as the premier dive bombing airframe.

    Composite armor should provide great survivability, but a reduction in speed/maneuverability.

    Flares need to be more interactive : I'd add spotting flares (insta-spot within 20m of an area that instantly ends upon leaving said area) to it's kit, and the potential ability of revealing cloaked infiltrators within the area. Flares are by themselves niche, and competing with +25% health whenever required is tough, and I don't have any good ideas for flares.

    I don't know how targeting systems in Planetside 2 work, and I'm not sure if this is a great idea, but I'd rework how flares in PS2 interact with G2A missiles : they should be actual entities that distract almost all incoming G2A missiles between you and the enemy if used right (I'd make flares a target possible to lock-on to so it can interrupt locks that way and give them an actual hitbox, on top of the current effect of cancelling locks), but they should deploy from the rear of the aircraft so they'll require defensive maneuvering, they can't protect you from a missile fired in front of you. The idea is to make them stronger while requiring some thought : no "I'll just hover and farm".



    And last, but not the least, the Lancer. I'm not kidding by the way, with the old velocity sniping air vehicles was viable. Gib old velocity back, pls pretty pls.




    TL : DR - Tweak AA so hits are felt and earned while being possible to react to. Pilots should require some thinking and consideration before diving into AA, but also give them tools to do so, also some extra utility for UP stuff.
    • Up x 4
  2. FLHuk

    Sacrilegious stuff :eek:
  3. iller

    a good question indeed...

    ...though I've gotten more than enough AirHammer kills myself to know that it's still significantly less effort for me to hit those meaty shots than to say ... equip my Medic's Nc1Assault rifle and kill them just as quickly, and especially land a headshot on them as a RailJack or BoltDriver infil (that's probably more related to sniping in general being way too binary and "feast or famine" depending on whether your target is moving notstop even while behind cover)

    ...and this is taking into account just how much more awkward the precision aiming with a "Brick" is than it is with the more nimble slimmer-profile (from all angles) red insect of swarming and pestilence

    ...
    But non-contributional waffling aside, I don't think I've got any solution to it that doesn't involve rethinking the entire Infantry meta and its fragility for the sake of Offense always having to be more rewarding than Defense ever is
  4. JustGotSuspended

    One minor addition. ES dumbfire 1hk esfs, not with composite. Deci/Kraken 1hk esfs no matter what.

    Possibly it would be nice to return the deci's 2hk on a lib, or at least 3hk. Right now libs still feel far too tanky against these things.
    • Up x 3
  5. MonnyMoony


    One fix I have suggested over the years is to give Maxes a "sidearm" option.

    Essentially a third shoulder mounted weapon that can be toggled in much the same way as switching from primary to secondary infantry weapons.
    • Up x 4
  6. Anantidaephobia

    The Skyguard DOES definitely need some AA buff. One shouldn't lose a 1v1 vs a single mosquito/reaver/scythe. Actually i believe these ones should fear any AA equipment, but they don't AT ALL.
    Once inside a Skyguard, we're supposed to be able to do 1 thing properly, which is fighting flying stuff, but we aren't (and no need to think of doing ANYTHING else beside, or maybe killing a lonely noob driven sundy).
    One bad thing with SGs is the low ROF and big COF that makes Air just laughing at you when they're some distance away, or when you start to shoot them and they just fly away, knowing that the former will happen ...
    • Up x 4
  7. OneShadowWarrior

    I been complaining about AA for years, great post.
    • Up x 2
  8. Anantidaephobia

    Another example I lived today but it's quite the norm : got some AA rocket launcher ?! No problem ! The Lib/fighter will stay high enough to keep safe so that you can't lock your launcher THOUGH his bombs/missiles/whatever WMD will still perfectly reach your face as they have some pretty accurate artillery.
  9. brutes359

    I agree that AA launcher range needs to be restored. So does the range of emplaced AA guns. There is a vary significant statement to be made when an ESF can sit within render distance and pelt an emplaced AA gun with lolpods and still be out of range... I would say what AA gun is still viable. But there no way I'm mentioning it here where the devs can see it. It would be nerfed to oblivion by tomorrow morning with how zealous they've been worshiping the skyjockies.
    • Up x 3
  10. MonnyMoony

    How about lockon time is reduced a bit and the lockon range is extended a bit if the aircraft has been spotted.
    • Up x 3
  11. RabidIBM

    I don't think the solution is to power up AA, as these would become the anti ground meta as well. Aircraft across the board have too much HP. Weight matters when you are trying to fly, which is why we don't see flying tanks in the real world.
    • Up x 1
  12. JustGotSuspended

  13. ican'taim

    • Buff base turret velocity
    • Add "Havoc" rockets to ES lock on launchers, but can only fire with a lock.
    • ES dumbfires do 1k damage, decimator does 2k but only gets 3 rockets.
    • Lancer should have its velocity increased massively. I don't play VS but it's just pitiful.
    • Phoenix could also get the Havoc effect as well, making it have a use and not be the weakest rocket launcher.
    • Rocket pods do 250 damage, BUT you only carry one salvo. Once you're done, gotta go back to a friendly tower to resupply. This could cause a new strategy of having one or two people ambushing ESFs as they resupply on rockets.
  14. Jubikus

    The big issue is AA cant really be balanced. Anti air has this awkward thing where 1 is useless against a single aircraft while 5 shut down all aircraft for the entire area. I honestly wish i had any idea of what to do about AA personally ive shot down the most Aircraft with P2-120 AP and Titan AP than anything else and im pretty sure ive shot down more aircraft with a Decimator than an annihilator as it one shots ESF if you hit them.
    • Up x 1
  15. Foxassassin

    Reminds me of Battlefield 5. The tanks were better at taking down aircraft then -any- of the AA in the game, especially after the AA got nerfed several times over.
    -
    I honestly think Skyguard VS EFS are a fair match. The problem is Liberators. And I've said this a few times before, moving the boost from passive back to utility would fix most of the problems like it used to be years ago.

    Having a AI Havoc launcher would be great too. It's impossible to hit high flying air vehicles with the Punisher's grenade on HA. Fixing the Masamune's multiple bugs would help too.

    -
    Edit: While not a solution. I had a crazy idea that could be interesting to try on PTS; Add force to rocket/AA impacts on air targets. I.E say shooting a Iiberator in the tail would rotate it downwards and throw off it's aim/trajectory.

    We already have this to some degree for orbitals. And like I said, not exactly a fix but it could be something to think about at least.
  16. brutes359

    AA guns shutting down air support in an area is not a sign that those guns are a broken tool. but rather they are a tool of warfare. there is a reason that taking down AA guns has been a priority in most military engagements in real life. Its because they are effective. No aircraft in planetside should be able to tow it with an emplaced AA gun. It should be up to the ground forces to eliminate those weapons by whatever means they choose. C-4, Rockets, Infiltrators, whatever. AA used to be WAY more powerful when the game first came out, and yet their where still ARX pilots back then. Its called "Teamwork" and that should be the answer your looking for.

    AA launchers need their range back, and that's it. nothing else, no other buffs or nerfs.

    AA platforms need to be accurate and able to engage aircraft at render distance. if they can shoot at you, you should be able to shoot back, and at no point should a vehicle be able to reliably outrange a base defense unless its an artillery piece. which planetside doesn't have....yet. THATS A HINT DEVS.....GET ON IT ALREADY.
    • Up x 2
  17. FLHuk

    The first BR100 on Lithcorp was a ground pounding skyknight.... Oh how times have changed, oh wait.
    • Up x 1
  18. JustGotSuspended


    would be cool if the base (both normal and construction) phalynx aa turrets dealt some damage. Seriously those things are perhaps one of the game's biggest memes.

    It's also interesting to note that the AI and AV turrets are super effective, yet the AA turret is absolute trash. Seriously a single AI phalynx in a pmb will deny any non-infil infantry that remotely approaches the base near instantly. The AA turret can literally be killed in a 1v1 against an ESF without even taking away 25% of the esf's health.

    Definitely don't see any dev bias here
    • Up x 3
  19. Demigan

    The big problem with G2A weapons is that their design is crap.
    They use a lot of skill-lowering methods to guarantee hits, like the ridiculously large flak detection range of 8m! If your aircraft was a single point you would be able to hit it if you get a shot anywhere within a 16m diameter sphere, or slightly more than one and a half Sunderer. Then they added a large COF to many forms of G2A.
    You can't have such a high chance of guaranteed hits and let the weapon actually kill anything. So they moderated the damage to give aircraft an almost 100% guaranteed escape chance as long as they are able to point away from the G2A source and don't hit the ground. Unfortunately this does not prevent groups of G2A to simply add that damage they just nerfed and skill get almost guaranteed kills on (dumb and visible) aircraft.

    The easiest solution: Reduce the skill-lowering methods, increase the accuracy, increase the rewards. Unlike Jubikus's comments G2A is easily balanced if you do that without 5 sources "shutting down" entire area's (which they don't today unless you are flying in straight lines and always attack from the same direction, in other words don't use 90% of the advantage an aircraft can use).


    Examples of balanced versions of G2A are easy:

    Give Lightnings access to modified ESF noseguns. The lack of being able to follow the ESF should be compensated through some means, like increasing the damage or velocity.

    Reduce the flak detection range but keep the size of the current AOE. 0,5m, 1m and 2m detection range is more than enough and allow you to set up various flak settings or abilities. For example very early in the game flak would deal more damage if it detonated closer to the aircraft and the flak would only detonate the moment it's distance started to increase compared to the aircraft, allowing players to try and get flak closer and deal more damage.

    Stop using fire-and-forget lock-on weapons. Maintain-lock missile launchers would work well, it would allow aircraft to try and shake the lock and let the missile miss. On the other hand you could allow players to lock on after firing (or after a lock has been broken), meaning players could pre-fire their missile. This does require the lock itself to happen much faster in 0.5 to 1 second.

    You can use different flak warheads. For example a flak warhead that doesn't just explode, but launches a shotgun-pattern of shrapnel in front of it upon detonation. If you aim too much to the side of the aircraft many of the pellets will miss and your damage will be lower, aim perfectly dead-center and you get maximum damage.

    Allow all G2A weapons to switch between two modes. One is for hitting ESF, one for hitting the Liberators and Galaxies. Letting Galaxies get killed by weapons capable of hitting ESF accurately is not fair. So instead you have a slower velocity, more drop setting on all your G2A weapons that deal more damage to Galaxies and Liberators but have less chance of actually hitting them.


    Another thing is that protection against aircraft should be more available. Currently you can't really leave large population area's without bringing self-nerfing G2A weapons. If you don't bring those weapons you are completely helpless to any aircraft that come along, while if you do bring them the aircraft can almost automatically escape and look for an easier non-resisting target.
    Players should have access to ways to shake off the aim of aircraft attacking them. Better versions of the smoke generators to hide themselves, small weapons that nerf aircraft maneuverability and turret movement so that they have a harder time doing attack runs and keeping you under attack, weapons designed to deal a fair chunk of damage but have limited ammo and capabilities to hit so you at least stand a chance of scaring the aircraft off etc. You should almost never be helpless just because an aircraft came along. After all if an aircraft does not have any weapons to effectively deal with you they can almost automatically escape you, so why should an aircraft be able to kill you without you having any chance of defending yourself just because you didn't bring the right kit "just in case"?
    • Up x 1
  20. JustGotSuspended


    a flip side would be to make a2g weapons skill based. Replace the infernal brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrttttttttttttttttt or lol pods that basically just point&click to guarantee a ton of easy kills.

    Replace a2g weapons by something more skilled, basically turn the thing into a flying max. I wouldn't mind dying to a flying mercy knowing I had some time to react and fire back before dying. Most a2g weapons now not only will kill you before you can even switch to a rocket launcher, but they will also completely shake your screen left and right, further lowering the possibility of you being able to accurately fire something back before you're obliterated.

    And lol, good luck if you're not a heavy or la.
    • Up x 2