[Suggestion] Regarding alert interest

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by RabidIBM, Dec 28, 2020.

  1. RabidIBM

    Well, I can see that my thread about how to increase interest in alerts has turned into a gripe fest.

    The small, achievable things for small pop to do already exist in some bases, it involves having multiple capture point. This is best represented on Amerish, where most of the big bases have 1 point which is easy for the defenders to hold onto while they call for reinforcements. A point on Granite Valley Garrison, D point on Split Peak Pass, A point on The Bastion, I think it's C point on Lithcorp Secure Mine, but I might be wrong on that one. The point is, there is a single point that a small number of defenders can hold onto and force the attackers to come to them if they don't want to waste a bunch of time. As a PL out of the Eastern Warpgate, I have taken Granite Valley Garrison as a plug on the eastern front, and then dispatched a single squad to hold A point more than once. The population might be 80/20, but they still hold it, and don't lack for kills. This adds 10 minutes to the capture clock, giving me time to wrap things up elsewhere before moving the whole platoon in to save the heroic squad. There's your achievable goal for an underpop. We need more of this in the game.
    TLDR on that? We don't need new mechanics to roid up the low pop defenders, we need better bases.

    As for the faction balance griping, put your confirmation bias down and get your head out of the victim beta male role. Just stop it. Quit being Jerry.

    And to the whole, "People don't play the alerts because they aren't fun", that's a self fulfilling prophecy. Capturing bases only turns into boring zergs when the faction losing territory won't leave center base. If they will leave center base and come fight us, we do get fun fights, which could go either way, and move between different bases giving a variety of game play experience.

    And thus, we get back to the whole reason for this thread. I believe there is a threshold, where if enough players refuse to join the alert, and instead insist on fighting at center base or a bio lab, where every door way is familiar, and they never need to think of anything original, they settle into that comfort. This makes the alerts unplayable for those who want to play them. On the other side, if enough players DID join the alerts, and discover that they actually are fun, and the war front moved around more, that would become normalized, farming mid base would become de-normalized, and we would have a better game. Either way, the behavior is self enforcing, and something is needed to break the bio farmers out of their habits, and play this game as intended.
  2. JustGotSuspended

    I understand your frustration at people criticizing your thread, but you're thinking a bit like wrel here.



    I'm one of those guys who flocks to the bios, nasons, the "fun" fights. Before, I used to actively try my best to come up with new sunderer placements, start nice fights. Now, the only time I might pull a bus to start a fight is to reconnect to a bio, ti or whatever fun base got cut-off/captured.

    From time to time, fights trigger, and I adventure myself to the wg bases, the less frequent bases to fight on. I still remember the layout on all of them, no matter how long I haven't played on them. People have been playing on the same maps for years, even if they don't fight at that base everyday, they still remember it, and have no problem getting accustomed to it, since all bases followthe same designs anyways. Seriously, you have tower, triple-stack, open point and banana building. Not really hard to get lost with that, especially since you have a minimap anyways. So no, I don't think there is a variety in the base experience, save for a few exceptions. Not that it really matters.


    As for alerts, it's not entirely true. The easiest way to cap a base is to overpop it. Defending bases typically is a nice way to boost your stats, but it doesn't bring much to the table for your outfit/faction. So each zerg will focus on capturing bases (resources) through zerging, and avoid fighting each other. If the zergs did fight each other head on, you'd have a big stalemate, except maybe this time at a tiny base instead of those that are "meant" to host larger fights.


    Players aren't stupid, everyone has at some point tried to play the game "as intended". People have played to win alerts, and for some reason decided it wasn't fun to them, over farming at a base. Your scenario seems a bit far-fetched. You want to force the majority of players, those who don't care about alerts, to play the alert - without zerging - so the few players who try to participate in alerts can have fun.

    You need to realize that playing to win alerts essentially amounts to which faction can zergball down a lattice the fastest and cut off the most territory, without wasting time defending bases they don't have to. Most people play this game to shoot at things, and to have a fun fight. Alerts go against that. Therefore, most people tend to ignore alerts. The bases they fight at are the most sustainable, which typically means the larger, center-map bases, or biolabs. Biolabs are usually the easiest fights to sustain, so it's why they are usually fought at the most. There's been huge stalemates at other bases, but those typically last less time because someone kills the spawn and "poof" the fight ends, or the base flips and the same thing happens. Larger bases have more points to defend, take longer to flip, so they manage to contain the large fight the longest.

    You're missing the point here. People don't flock to biolabs or these bases for comfort, because everything is familiar. No, seriously, all the bases are the same, and everyone knows them like the back of their hands anyways. People flock to these bases because they want to have fun, and that is fun.

    Reworking bases would be nice, but you gotta fix the core issue with the lattice system, alerts and the foundational capture mechanics of the game. Otherwise the same thing will happen again on different bases, or people will just quit, as you'll notice on the new esamir.
  3. RabidIBM

    Dude, your lack of experience in actually playing alerts is showing. Before alerts and early in alerts outfits will consider their armories, but winning factions change gears to defense. Alerts are won by winning and concluding fights as fast as possible, and defensive fights are faster and generally have a higher win rate.

    You also seem to have a strange idea of how many people want to play the alert. The fact that my full platoon as well as others on command will collaborate to intentionally end the farms says how many people want the farmers to get out of the bio lab says that farmers aren't such an overwhelming majority as you imply, but they are enough population to be annoying.
  4. Johannes Kaiser

    Then I misremembered that part, alright. Thanks for clearing it up.
  5. pnkdth


    Yeah, what we need to get done is to break the cycle of the cert farm. The challenge is how the game is built around individual goals and not a whole lot for larger goals. Certs, ribbons, directives, even the alert awards themselves and only the activity of the alert is social. You can join an outfit but it isn't required to engage in farming.

    What I meant with smaller achievements could be classified as mini-alerts. Grabbing the objective of a base is just a means to capture the base, not a goal you can aim for. You can also construct a system which makes these goals more valuable to complete for the faction(s) which has the lower territory in a way to show command you're deserving of Papa Vanu's praise, Brass approval, or phat bonus checks cause you did something difficult. In short, make it more interactive than than a % bar showing who has the most territory and invite players to participate. Multiple smaller goals are less taxing mentality as well.

    TL;DR if we want to shake up the farm, we got to give them first a selfish (as in personally rewarding them) reason to join and then keep them engaged.
    • Up x 1
  6. JustGotSuspended


    If there's so many people interested in alerts, why do you need the few to step out of their farm to help you win? If you need that pop so desperately you're going to cut off their fun, then I'm assuming these people are a majority, and you and your buddies are just trolling them, in hopes they'll give up farming certs and directives to help you zerg towards a pointless cause.

    Alerts are won by zerging, I've literally never played an alert in the past few years that didn't rely on zerging down an abandonedlattice, while the other 2 factions were having fun at a good farm.
  7. RabidIBM

    When everyone has 30-something percent territory, we need every man because these things come down to the wire. And by the final 30 minutes, anyone "zerging down a lane" is wasting their time, we need to be playing an aggressive, hyper-active game of whack a mole where there is no shortage of targets, often concluding with a mosh pit at a 1 minute base. However, people who don't zoom out of their sights long enough to check the map wouldn't know this.
  8. JustGotSuspended

    Ok, so if alerts are so fun, engaging and all, then the people at these bases are complete morons who have no clue what they are doing. I wouldn't count on these smooth brains to help such geniuses win alerts and have fun. Let the guys have fun in their daycare while you big bois play the defensive/offense game of whack-a-mole to efficiently capture all the territory to win an alert. Besides, the fact the fight's a stalemate means these players are at relatively equal pop, so forcibly dragging them out of there isn't gonna "turn the tide" lmao.

    Because everyone know alerts and bases are won through a fun, fair fight, that's continuously evolving back and forth, and not a mindless zergball rolling down a wg lattice unchallenged.

    Seriously, I can't explain the game's mechanics any better, if you're going to start refusing to accept what's downright obvious.
  9. RabidIBM

    Here's another example, nothing to do with a bio lab or TI alloys. I just logged into Emerald, why are the Terrans attacking Tawrich? The Vanu must be pissed about this one, they are actually attacking the NC at Howling Pass, and the Terrans are stabbing them in the south instead of doing something about the NC who are in the lead by 10 points. I'd be mad if I were Vanu here because the people not playing the alert make it impossible for those who want to.
  10. RabidIBM

  11. TR5L4Y3R


    higher nanite gain for a defender i think was one of the ideas we threw around back then ... that way a outnumbered defender could theoretically spawn say more Maxsuits than the outnumbering force because they already bring the nanitecosting stuff to the base ... or people get to use more grenades, mines or c4 compared to the attacking outnumbering enemy ..
  12. JustGotSuspended

    Wow, what a surprise, a screenshot of exactly what I explained. VS are attacking palisade and Howling pass. With their pop at these bases, the rest of the VS lattice is empty. TR see the perfect opportunity to zerg down the empty vanu bases, and score quick and easy wins. These people ARE playing the alert, and exactly the way I described.

    This time the fun fight is at howling instead of allatum or whatever, but its the same stuff. People playing for the alert zerg, people who just want to play the game to shoot stuff shoot. It's a sandbox, so no one is really right or wrong.

    But I wouldn't be surprised if more people found shooting others at a fun fight more amusing than zerging down empty lattices trying to scrape together more points.
  13. Demigan

    The problem with that would be players running low on nanites and quickly going to an underpopped fight to speed up their recharge.
    A better system would be to lower the cost of the items inside a low-pop area. To prevent players from spawning in a low-pop area and getting almost free C4 and grenades after which they redeploy a legacy system must be in place. Players have to be outnumbered for X time by X amount before it takes effect (similarly it also slowly dissipates and you don't instantly lose it). This also prevents the defenders from getting a sudden boost at the very end of a fight because most of their friends left to defend the next base.
    • Up x 3
  14. RabidIBM

    @JustGotSuspended I know you're just trolling at this point but I'm going to bite anyways. If 48-96 is an empty lane in your books, how many are required for a fight?

    As for your point that this is playing the alert, again your lack of strategic sense is showing. Playing the alert would be leaving 2 squads for a point hold on one of the points at Crossroads Watchtower to both protect the SCU shields and force the 15 minute timer instead of the 5 minute timer, and sending the rest to anywhere on the NC front. The guys attacking Seabed have the right idea, they look to be moving for Ceres, which if the Vanu Capture Pallisade would cut off the mid map. Dahaka Amp wouldn't be a bad play, it would force a platoon off of anywhere else to deal with, reinforcing Quartz wouldn't be terrible, **** even attack T.I. ****ing Alloys would be better for the alert than attacking Tawrich when the NC are up 10 points!
  15. JustGotSuspended


    Are you serious? You were just complaining VS abandoned Tawrich a few posts ago. The lattice is empty, VS aren't sending enough troops to defend it. It's and easy cap for TR, the VS aren't having fun and will likely leave to the NC front after they lose their base, and the lattice will be even more empty.

    Yeah, I'm sure it won't be completely "empty", there's always gonna be a dude who stays back to farm the zerg. But for all intents and purposes, given the amount of pop there is on the map, that lane is empty. As in, there's no significant defensive pop to make a difference.


    You're complaining about lack of players, then want to just station 2 squads at a base? Lol.

    I mean, you could do that....or you could cap 2 bases in the time it takes them to cap crossroads.

    Whatever, it's just getting silly at this point.


    The whole point was, alerts aren't fun, and have little purpose. That's your 2 reasons why few players care about them.
  16. Demigan

    Your small achievable things for small pop boils down to:
    • A few specific bases with a defendable point
    • Defending the base using reinforcements rather than the small group
      • Using a squad/platoon lead invested enough with voice comms and enough squads/platoons ready to listen and react to that reinforcement request.
    • Skillful enough players to actually hold that point against superior odds.
    We definitely need new mechanics to make sure that you don't need to rely on all these factors. What if you aren't in a squad? It's extremely likely that small fights have no squad/platoon presence. What if you are at one of the +/-50 to 80 bases on that particular continent that don't have a defendable point? Worse: The moment you lose the defendable base a zerg has almost certainly formed and you are now powerless to stop them.

    I hate the terms of alpha and beta males. They are incredibly inaccurate, based on a gross misinterpretation of a study on wolves and apes. In wolves and apes the Alpha male is the one tasked with the most responsibilities, using their strength and more importantly social capabilities to stop fights, to make sure the sick and young get food first (the alpha wolf takes the first bite but the sick and young eat first!) and the "traditional" alpha male attributes many people say an alpha is are actually the traits that get the leader kicked out of office. In chimpansees a leader displaying those traits will often be held down by the group and beaten to death, because the responsibility to the group is more important than the alpha being the biggest, strongest and meanest.

    Back on topic: There are indications that the balance between factions is off. Even if you believe we have perfectly balanced factions we should still look into improving that balance always and at every moment. The MAX ZOE is a great example. When it was released it was pretty balanced as people used it "normally". Then they discovered that the speed and firepower allowed them to do literal run&gun's on their enemies, killing a bunch before falling back for repairs, often quite literally walking through a bunch of enemies to kill them before returning. So having a hand on the pulse of the game to see where things need to be tweaked is always good.
    Even more important: How does it feel? For example the Vanguard shield just barely keeps the Vanguard competitive compared to the Prowler and Magrider, but to the VS and TR it feels like the shield gives the Vanguard an unearned win whenever the Vanguard wins and defeating a Vanguard feels to them like they were just lucky rather than it was something they did. So even if you assume the 3 MBT's are balanced, that shield needs to be altered so players don't feel like they are being cheated. On the other hand to preserve balance and make sure the NC still feel good about their tank (or finally feel good about their tank) they should get something in return, like having some base properties of the Vanguard improved to compensate the loss of shield power and make the vanilla Vanguard competitive without that shield compared to vanilla Magriders and Prowlers.

    1. Should we leave a system in that is so easily destroyed by a self-fulfilling profecy?
    2. Redeployside and Galaxy drops was already discovered in the first year of the game and has been prevalent since despite attempts to nerf these tactics. Saying it's a self-fulfilling profecy to join a fight with a high risk that you won't enjoy it because you'll have all your progress destroyed due to a redeployside/galdrop is bad.
      • It's not a self-fulfilling profecy, it's deliberate preservation of the fun of the user. Why take that risk of your gameplay being ruined by something you have no control over which is heavily in use since the first year of the game if you can stick to a big non-stop battle in a Biolab or bases like TI Alloys where a Galdrop or redeployside won't be as effective due to the terrain and existing numbers? The solution: Make sure that you can have fun when you join a battle as the outnumbered player or when a Galdrop/redeployside comes along and suddenly upends your fight.


    Alerts are unplayable because they are unplayable, not because of the playerbase.

    Hell even if it was the playerbase, what are you going to do about it? Change the playerbase? You can't! You make sure that they can enjoy the alerts! The escalation update proved that there is a massive amount of players just waiting for those large-scale combined arms fights all over the place, including the people who hold their ground in Biolabs. The problem is that the promoted win-conditions also promote bad playstyles. Avoid large fights, cheese and grief your enemies to make them leave, use large numbers, only pick bases you can easily capture, let friendly territory fall so you can recapture it for your own outfit instead using redeployside and Galdrops. The promise of Escalation drew most players out of their hidey holes and the broken win-conditions and bad game mechanics send them back there again.

    Absolutely F U C K alerts right now. They aren't just worthless, they are slowy breaking down the game. We need to rebuild all of it from the ground up and leave the current iterations in the dust.
    • Up x 1
  17. Chluchcop

    Want to know if it's possible to add the South African Flag in the
    Decal section please.