Close Quarter Snipers out of control

How does it dumb down the game when 1) another class enters the meta och taking and holding bases 2) you cannot simply bombard a base with recon darts and call it a win. 3) other classes are involved in the recon meta of holding/defending devices (both recon and jamming).

It is the very opposite of fire and forget since you're actively going back and forth trying to get the best kind of intel.

@recreo
If you're legitimately trying to differentiate between infil SMGs and infil bolt actions dont use false equivalences.
This isnt about whether the SMG user or knifer dies after he gets his kill, because thats already been dismissed in this thread for bolters. If either a bolter or smg infil has bad positioning they will die after they get their kill.

The complaint so far has been how much the recipient can do to react to the threat. The answer is still nill. Every weapon the infiltrator has when correctly applied gives the recipient 0 chance of survival.

Even the apparent god of bolters Elusive1 barely breaks a 50% accuracy with them, with a 66% HSR. Two thirds of the time that he shows his face if people turned and shot him he'd be dead. Thats reality.

The gist of the complaints so far I've seen in the thread are that people just dont think getting 1-shot by a ghost is "fair". To be briefer than I've been so far, thats a ****** argument, because by that standard there's lots of **** in this game thats intentionally not fair, including the entire infiltrator class.

Maybe thats not specifically your argument. Rather than asking you to sum up your particular take I've just read through what you've personally posted on the topic. I dont intend to strawman, so forgive and correct me if I get something wrong:
You think cqc bolters are overpowered, only on infils, because they can abuse Clientside and kill someone before they can react. Correct? That one sentence to be it to me and I'm stopping there, everything further is rhetorical, not a depiction.

-This is ignoring that any class can abuse Clientside in the same way by peeking? Watch the elusive video, he hardly touches stealth. Your problem would apply to all bolt actions on any class.
-This is ignoring the fact that, despite their various effective ranges, all infiltrator weapons when correctly applied abuse Clientside and cant be reacted to? Your problem does in fact apply to all infiltrator weapons.
-This im not clear on, do you specifically object to the cqc bolters because their effective range of up to like 36-50m is too high? Thats literally only across the width of a stock tower, like in Crossroads. This is a cqc bolter thread, thats not an unpunishable range. Do you also object to the 4 other stock bolt actions per faction and sniping in general? This isnt the thread for that and I assure you sniping at actual sniping ranges is far less punishable, even if it is usually useless.
-This is pretending that cqc bolting is unpunishable in general? The one in 3 times the god of cqc bolting actually lands a headshot yes, its unreactable, but its not unpunishable in any way unless its a 1v1 and we're selectively forgetting the 2/3 of the time that the god misses his shots.

So this is overpowered.... how? In what context?
In the context of a 1v1? The best player out there with that weapon should have a 33% winrate in that case, seems fine. Ignoring of course that most people are not even Elusive1.
In the context of an objective? Infiltrators hardly contribute to capping objectives, and what they do do has little relevance to bolters. They just farm.
In the context of stat farming? All stat farms are relative to the weapon anyway. I assure you I have a fantastic KPM on tank mines, that doesnt make my k/d on the gauss saw any more or less impressive.

Now again, not to strawman, your stated solution is to remove all bolt actions from the class, and give them to an entirely new "marksman" class, that you readily admit would rarely have any use in the game?

You know, just talking to you shifts the overton window massively.

I am saying Infiltrator uniquely synergizes with bolt actions unlike how every other class does. Their entire class specializes at shooting first and the bolt action kills in that first shot; that is how the class is overpowered. You can, in fact, react to SMG infiltrator by virtue of the lower TTK and exceedingly more limited range. I never mentioned client siding people because this applies to literally every class and isn't unique to Inf or bolts.

They also do not "just farm" given the utility they provide is bested only by the CM and they're perfectly capable of DMing as a class whose intended weakness is direct confrontations.

Put concisely, bolt actions cover up all weaknesses of the Infiltrator class, save for user error which applies to every class. This is not true of other classes whose weaknesses aren't intended to be direct combat and whose specialty isn't getting the first shot almost every single time.

This isnt actually true though. The bolt action kills in the first shot that hits, accurately. Even with the the god of all cqc bolting that happens a third of the time, and he doesnt even use the class's mechanic to accomplish this. He would probably do better if he could bolt on a heavy.

When used properly no you cannot, no more than with bolt actions. If you assume perfect execution of bolt actions you must also assume perfect execution of the SMG or there is no comparison. Point blank, from behind, all headshots, there is 0 way that anyone is reacting to an SMG, you're dead before you hear the sound, especially if that fu cker is playing from Australia. This is especially true if we include that realistically its followed up with a knife thrust, though I'm not sure thats fair to include in the comparison.

Is the comparison how well an SMG does at 200m? No, this is obviously stupid.

You can say the setup takes slightly longer the SMG, and thats arguably somewhat valid, but that hasnt been the basis of the argument, the setup takes longer with orbital strikes too. The complaint is consistently how well you can react to a perfectly executed bolt action while selectively forgetting all the failed attempts. Yes that is a silly basis, but I didnt choose it, and on that basis pretty much everything the infiltrator does is the same.
Is the SMG user more punishable after he gets his perfect kill? Totally, he's a bit closer, but the complaint hasnt been "oh, I cant shoot that cqc bolter who is incorrectly positioned after he shot my friend".

The weakness of the infiltrator class is supposed to be direct combat? Who told you that, and what is that even supposed to mean. If a cqc bolter gets the first shot he wins, and maybe dies if he wasnt well positioned. The other 66% of the time at best he loses, and has greater risk of dying.

Do you mean that their weakness is supposed to be retaliation, moreso than other classes? Yeah, by about 10% effective health. If the infiltrator gets the element of surprise he wins, if he fails by any degree he's in slightly more danger than other classes might be, but not by much. The infiltrator also has very little utility thats not based around countering other infiltrators, and it doesnt stack well. 1 infiltrator is all you need for recon, and hacking, and EMP, if you can even get a single infiltrator to do any of those. He also cant do jack **** to vehicles, the only class that cant even use C4. Imo the infiltrator's weakness is that there's very little he can do besides farm noobs, either noobs who stand still or noobs who let him get behind them. He cant take a point, he cant hold a point unless the enemy has to cross 200m of open ground as infantry, and he cant contribute to vehicle superiority. Check out how many infiltrators actually get used in Desolation when that happens. They'll be there, but not many, and mainly for the chance at a good hack.

Some of your arguments would be logical and fine if they werent wrong.
-The best bolter we have as an example doesnt use his class ability to bolt, so while that synergy is certainly arguably there, its obviously not necessary to the point of being relevant, and there would arguably be equivalent or greater synergy on other classes. I have actual evidence of this, you do not. Your argument that Cqc bolters are somehow especially problematic on infiltrators is evidently wrong.
-Your arguments for comparing infiltrator weapons depend upon assuming a perfect or near perfect accuracy and conditions for the bolter, while not extending the same conditions to the other weapons. This is fallacious. There are ways for almost every infiltrator weapon to kill you without you being able to react if you assume perfect conditions. Yes SMGs have a non-zero TTK, but if it were always possible to react to them in the ways you suggest there would literally never be SMG kills, because their effective range is knife range. Perfect conditions for the SMG do exist. In a non perfect world, a 33% success rate for the best guy we have evidence of isnt "getting the first shot almost every single time", thats nowhere near reality, you're wrong.

^^^ This. As a career inf, the OP's inference that inf TTK is even remotely close to HA or LA is laughable. The problem is, when you kill 2 or 3 infs in a run, you don't really remember - it happens all the time. When an inf occasionally pops up and headshots you from 2 meters and then runs off, that pisses people off, and that's the kill they remember.

In any case, there are more of these 'some other class makes me sad, they should be nerfed' type posts to go around. Pick your class, get good with it, and quit trying the crap up someone else's gameplay when things don't work out for you. You'll still get plenty of kills.

This tracks with the data as well (not many infiltrators around + low kills + barely even present on the weapon score boards most of the time). If everything is working, i.e. they're doing good they're usually blissfully unaware of just how much of an impact they're having. I do not have any issue with rebalancing the class if it improves the game but, I agree, that some of the "LETS JUST DELETE IT!" suggestions are pretty funny (in that wonderfully salty manner).

Well, infil's tools aren't remotely hard to use right? You can light up an entire hex with darts that very few people will ever destroy, and you can place the radar in places where it probably won't ever be killed unless you lose the room anyway. On top of that, there is little to no counter-play to this tool and the intel it provides is pretty strong (I would argue almost game-breaking in some cases).

Your idea is really great with the current mechanics - essentially the same tools but they jam the infil's right? You place and forget, and it counters the place and forget infil tools.

I'd just rather the infil's tools weren't so braindead to use in the first place and were more balanced. For example, making recon dart a single pulse and put it on a relatively high cd (15-20 secs). Make the dildar require re-supply (or really long cd), and have it only pulse every like 12-15 seconds so there is some counter-play and it doesn't essentially track you (though this would still make it place and forget).

So how does my suggestion dumb down the game by adding new layers to the fight (and a way to disable it)? Dumbing down a game usually mean you streamline it so it becomes easier and less complex to play. Furthermore, by implementing two opposing tools means you are mechanically creating conflict between the two, one wants to take out the other. The opposite of "place and forget."

Ways of improving upon this kind of balance could be 1) making darts bigger and more visible 2) not being able to have more than 1-3 darts active at the same time 3) lifespan of each dart. I do not think the recon devices are an issue since they're so easy to spot on the mini-map anyways. Especially not if there is a jammer available.

Well, to be extremely clear, I'm not that naive. If I wished to address the devs, I would address them on twitter or redddit. The devs haven't read the forums since SOE days, so anything I post on here is just for community discussion, or just therapeutic necessity.



Now, you do raise interesting questions, and no, I'm not entirely blaming CQC sniping as the reason everyone dumped the game, nor am I raising my ideas as "the final solution" to save Planetside 2. What I am trying to point out, is simply the reality that others and I are experiencing. I wouldn't have as strong of a position if I did not already have proof and validation from others that my claims could be justified. Snipers were never this powerful in beta or Planetside 1, both of which were able to maintain much more steady population levels than after the infil changes. Am I saying that everyone got tired of being instagibbed by invisible beings at almost any range and left? No, but it definitely could have been a factor to the game's decline.


I understand that for some reason, the devs have been determined to drag this game into the ground. Whether it be dumping investments from Planetside 2 in H1Z1, Planetside Arena or whatever nonsense they add to slowly tear away the entire ideology behind the game, the company has not understood the potential of Planetside 2, and obstinate themselves to creating 'ZE ULTIMATE BATTLE ROYALE!'. There's not much I can do to stop them, and if after nearly 5 years of bleeding out players and losing a lot of titles they still think their direction is correct, no one can drag them out of their fantasy, especially not me.



All I can do is simply talk in the forums, discover new perspectives or simply find more despair when reading some posts. I have played the game since it's first week of launch, and even though it has devolved in so many aspects, I am still addicted to playing it, and no other currently game feels the same. I have taken some breaks and stopped funding it, but I can't uninstall just yet.



"though imo thats partially because there are more new players right now and they dont understand the meta." It's even more frustrating to see people come back to check almost every update, only to leave again since nothing has changed. The escalation is just another band-aid, hyped a lot but leaves much to desire, and only a fraction of those who came to check it out have actually been playing actively this month (and I'm sure the quarantine has something to do with it). The thing is it's not a long term solution, and although I am amazed at how many people like me persevere and still give the game more chances than it deserves, I wonder: how long until people actually give up?


I would re-balance vehicles, give people the ability to actually fight air, remove OS and bastions, improve the map-flow, improve the new-player experience, improve the vet experience, bring back infiltrators to their previous, balanced state and remove the useless queues, sanctuary and outfit wars that make the game seem more of a br than a mmo fps. Can I do that? Nope, but it does feel nice talking about it with you guys and seeing the infinite directions this game could actually take to maybe recover some lost pop. I'm not delusional or anything, I know it's useless, the devs will never see it, never implement it even if by the wildest of chances, they accidentally ended up on here and clicked this thread, and it's even sad to see there's still internet trolls and dev-minded people patrolling the forums, but I am in quarantine; I have time to waste and I guess I kinda enjoy this lol.

Just wrong choice of words, perhaps. Though, the mechanics would still be place and forget, as the jamming would supersede infil's (which I would be 100% okay with because again of how strong I think mini-map tracking is). I don't mean literally forget about the tool, just that once you've placed it there is very little reason to worry much about it - if it is destroyed, replace it, but other than that there is almost no interaction. For a counter example of a tool with interaction: spitfires can be hacked, destroyed, disabled, repaired, strengthened, can be used as cover, smokescreen (when it dies), a semi-detection device (countered by infils), can be tricked with decoy grenade, and you typically want to move it around a little.

You can also spot darts on the mini-map to. The thing is, you usually can't destroy a motion spotter without EMP until the enemy team loses their position (either attack or defend). The same would probably be true of the jamming devices.

Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea of how hard it is to QCB snipe? I hate getting QCB sniped but still - this is not a problem in the game. Never was a base lost due to a QCB sniper. Seriously.

Yeah thats probably a good list.

The Planetside Arena thing was also pretty cringe, I thought it was a death knell.

Personally I'm interested in the potential of outfit wars, because imo there are a lot of aspects of the game that are untested and unbalanced simply because of the chaotic and fluid nature of it. Afaik there has never been a crucible to bring out the real stats of whats what and what works the best, everythings so sandbox. I like the sandbox, I think it has its place, but prior to the current pop boost people spent half the day in a biolab just farming.

They still do!

The requirements for the outfit wars encourage farming and zerging, and that's really the problem. Although on paper it seems like the matchmaking is balanced, the outfits are actually totally different. On one hand, you have the zergfits who have so much players, they are constantly capping bases 24/7 and generating scores that bring them to the top of the charts, even tthough half of the players that make up the outfit can't even determine friend from foe. On the other hand, we have super hardcore competitive outfits which pick the best fights for them and just farm the hell out of the lesser skilled players that are there, generating high scores too.


When you put the 2 outfits together in an arena style match, even though it seems balanced on paper, the outfit that relies on zerging doesn't stand a chance. Now ofc, since it is a 3 way and not many outfits are extremely skilled, outfits could team up against the better skilled one and maybe win using numbers. But wouldn't that just kill the point of having a "balanced" outfit war?



I really thing they should find ways to improve the map flow, they had mentioned the lattice system was temporary. Also, back in beta, continents and important bases actually had meaning, now only the biolabs offer somewhat of a benefit for people who don't want to use regeneration. They should really try to improve micro and macro map flow, and add some more faction meaning to the bases.

I tend to agree with what Somentine said, a good sniper can be very influential on a fight depending on their target selection. If you can kill a squad's Medic or a MAX's Pocket Engie it's usually worth it for your team even if it costs you a death to do it.

Yes, if you can find a good fight with a lot of newbies in it you can absolutely farm a lot of kills. But it isn't like this is something uniquely exploitable by the Infiltrator class. The kind of players who sit still while ADS-ing waiting to get headshot are also going to be easy food for the those high-BR heavies as well.

The main problem I see with the Infil class is unlimited Recon Dart spam. There has been and continues to be a need to limit the number of active darts allowed at once. I can sit on an Ammo Pack and in 30 seconds cover an entire base in darts that work from sea level to orbit. No movement, thought or effort required for a force multiplier that is unrivaled.
There either needs to be a limit to the amount of active darts you can have OR a means to counter/cancel them with another gadget, even if it's simply causing hostile/friendly darts to cancel each other out.

Yeah, its possible, but I'm saying its not whats easy and the type of people playing infiltrator for the sake of K/D will pretty much never risk themselves for a priority target. If you do find an objective oriented sniper, idk what that even is, most of the ones I actually see arent very good. Maybe this is a server bias thing, but on Connery I almost never see snipers with a bounty, or any sort of menace score.

Technically decoy grenades counter all recon, depending on the engagement type. Once again though its a case of only infiltrators being able to counter something infiltrators do.

And that is why KDR in isolation is an abysmal metric for determining how useful or "skilled" a player is in this game. Noting in what light a person views the KDR stat in this game is an excellent touchstone for determining whether or not that person is an idiot.
I'm also on Connery. I've seen a few who know what they are doing, but again, they're rare since most of the time the ones good enough to do it well will be found playing other classes.

Yeah, a deployable like the Dildar but for jamming could be something for the Engineer to have as an option, although they already wear a lot of hats as it is.

Didn't want to necropost, but this actually summarize my experience with the game pretty accurately.
I have around 400 hours in the game, with at least half in character selection menu listening to NC intro

And for me, this game mostly just failing to be a game. A game - is something you play. When you play, you interact with something, then see results, and adjust your interaction accordingly.
And what, for example, we have in Planetside 2:

I have a HA with Beetlejuice killing me over and over from a hill nearby. I want to get my revenge. I take LA and go to flank him.

1) I check the coast and everything looks good. I decide to go around the hill, but the moment I slow down to fly over a rock, some sniper puts bullet into my head. He was there for the whole time, I just couldn't see him. He was invisible.
Could I interact with the game to prevent my demise? No. There wasn't any information for me to rely on.
Result: just a little "**** you" from the game.
2) I respawn. I go other way to flank the sniper this time. ESF shows up from behind a mountain. I die to a volley of missiles.
Could I prevent that? No. ESF can show up any moment. It is much faster than me. It has great mobility and agility in skilled hands. Can destroy it before it kills me. Not really.
Could I interact with the game to prevent my demise? No. There wasn't any possibility for me to change my fate in any way.
Result: just a little "**** you" from the game.
3) I respawn. I go other way again... Oh wait, I don't. Three seconds later I'm rolled over by an invisible flash.
Could I interact with it? No. The only thing I saw was a wobbly effect 0.5 seconds before I was dead.
Result: just a little "**** you" from the game.
4) I respawn. I jump over the rock and kill the sniper. I see the HA I want to get. I start to move in. It is dusk, visibility is limited, tracers everywhere. I get nailed down from behind by SMG infiltrator.
Could I interact with it? Realistically, No. Squinting in the heat of battle looking for a cloak shimmer between rocks, while being shot is not a good type of interaction.
Result: just a little "**** you" from the game.
5) I...reluctantly respawn. I go around the rock. I drop on top of the HA I want to kill. I start to shoot him. I'm not very good, I don't have much experience in this game, but I hope I can compensate for it with my positioning. I've worked hard for it after all.
I manage to get one headshot, and then CoF kicks in, and HA starts to move, so I'm landing bodyshots mostly. But I started to shoot first and my aim is not that bad. I can do it. Only... Oh yeah, right. HA has third health bar and a weapon he doesn't have to reload. His aim is better than mine, and since he has health advantage, my positioning meant nothing in the end.
Could I interact with it? Yes. HA is just an example of bad design. Boring class with flat increase in health. If I would shoot more headshots I could possibly win this engagement. I need more practice for that.
Do I want to go through this cycle again to get that practice? Not really.
Result: fifth little "**** you" from the game, frustration. Alt-F4.
I'm in no doubt there are plenty of players who know perfectly how to find infiltrator sitting in shadows and put 4 headshot in him, and how to juke ESFs like a pro. The problem is: these poorly implemented interactions take too much time to learn and give to little in return. I, just like thousands of others newbies in this game, see zero reason to spend time learning it. There are much better options to spend your time on.

that is the salt
You're just not good. Get a HA and kill an enemy HA with a first attempt. Use diagonal moves. Always consider there is sniper somewhere aiming at you.
And of course 4..5 deaths in a row is normal for Planetside despite your skill. The game is old and there are a lot of decent players with many years experience.

P.S. betelgeuse isn't that good as many may think. I don't like it. SVA-88 for example is a headshot machine compared to Betelgeuse.

P.P.S. in COD MW4 I often finish the TDM match with 0 or 1..2 deaths and 20..22 kills. Is the MW4 bad in player interaction? I dont think so

I don't want to. Boring.

Depends. If that game has mechanics which allow you to kill someone without giving them a chance to react - than yes.

Any time your own skill has nothing to do with an outcome, it's frustrating. Maddening even
Getting killed by an Air Hammer, Banshee, hill parked HESH, or just the C4 that happened to detonate the sundy you spawned at. All the same. YOUR skill has nothing to do with your death. It's either bad timing or a mechanic that is 100% dependent on the skill if the person killing you.

It sucks. It's a ****** gameplay experience no matter the conditions or game.

And planetside is riddled with these experiences.

The CQC Bolter is one such example.

Given a few clues (sounds, general battlefield awareness) you can maximize your mitigation with good shuffling, constant cover, etc. But at the end of the day your death is 100% based on the skill of the shooter.

Now for me what tips it over the edge... ever since DX11 it seems worse (with a minor tweak somewhere early on).... The network and game mechanics make it so that the CQC Bolter is still invisible the moment the shot hits. You are dead without getting any chance to react at all.

I still see some folks, on tight networks I presume, that I can see and react to. In those cases they still get me quite a bit and I'm fine with that. I was slow to react, or reacted incorrectly.

MOST Bolters for me though begin decloaking on my screen after the shot has already hit. It's unfair.

/shrug I don't see dev doing anything about it anytime soon.