[Suggestion] Give the other 2(3?) faction HAs a heat based weapon!

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Trebb, Jun 26, 2020.

  1. Trebb

    It is well past time that the other factions got a heat based weapon for their Heavy Assault classes.

    But mah faction flavouuur! Well the alternative is to nerf it into uselessness because it is overused and overpowered in every scenario that matters.

    Pretty much any decent vanu fight, your death screen WILL look like this [IMG]

    But iTs nOt OvEPoweRed lol!!!11!1!eleven well... why does everyone use it? When I play my NSO and end up on Vanu, I've heard a few people over platoon now tell the young ones to go get this gun immediately. This is why you sometimes see lowish BRs with this weapon already.

    I don't want another nerf, I just want the other factions to get a similar cool toy. Come on, make it happen!
    • Up x 1
  2. Johannes Kaiser

    Doesn't have to be a heat mechanic for other factions, but something that is equally fun and useful.
    • Up x 2
  3. ZDarkShadowsZ

    It's clear that these days, hard-hitting weapons, fast-firing weapons, and most accurate weapons are beginning to bleed into other factions more and more. There should be mechanics specific to one faction, like VS' heat mechanic.

    Previously, NC's piercing rounds were going to be applied to one of the new VS vehicle weapons (which still have yet to be released). This should be NC-only. TR should retain DoT mechanics as 'their' thing. NS weapons should get faction-specific ammo. Such as the Thumper. Incendiary rounds for TR. Disruptor rounds for VS. Ricochet rounds for NC, since one of the developers were previously experimenting with it.
  4. Blam320



    I'd rather they rework Empire-Specific weapon mechanics so they actually show up on that empire's weapons. However, the other empires should still get at least one weapon that carries the unique trait of one of the other ES mechanics.
  5. InexoraVC

    whoot? Any stats plz!
    To get this gun "immediately" one should kill 5x1160 enemies with 5 LMG's. Are SURE "young ones" can do this ?
    Are you SURE low BR player can get this weapon ??

    By the way NC's PROMISE is strongest defensive LMG in the game. 8-11 killl in a streak is easy mode.
  6. Johannes Kaiser

    Lowest I've seen so far is 59. Which is some darn hard beelining, considering that in addition to kill XP, there are probably some capture XP, badge XP, assist XP and point flip XP in the mix. I bet those people don't play anything but HA and try to get as many kills as possible instead of playing objective.
  7. Demigan

    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,1924&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2020-06-25

    These for example?

    Or how about these:
    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02738&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2020-06-25

    Even when using non-Q4 stats, the only weapon that gets used more is the starter weapons for obvious reasons:
    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02738&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2020-06-25


    Now the fact that the second most used weapon for the entirety of the VS is their directive weapon, which requires 5x1160 kills to achieve, says something about how powerful a drive there is to get it in the first place. So players have to know about something to drive them to get it and use it more often than the TR and NC do their own directive weapon, and it also means players have to actively use it more often than the others.
    Now what secret do you think would drive any of these players to get this specific directive weapon much more often? Could it be... That it's powerful?
    • Up x 2
  8. CruelDestiny

    Have to agree, have a strong dislike fighting Vanu mostly because 8 times out of 10 I'm killed by a heavy wielding a betelgeuse but thats neither here nor there for this conversation.

    Wouldn't mind seeing some cross weapons between factions or at the bare minimum better representation of the faction specialty, where are all the TR Bullet hose high ammo count weapons? At the moment at most there is 10 extra bullets with less overall damage and hardly a ROF increase, in terms of faction identity the chaingun is really the only identifier as it encompasses that ideal and its situated on the heavy and max units.

    Meanwhile most of the VS weapons have their high bullet speed (making it look like virtually no bullet drop) and most of the NC weapons have higher damage per bullet.
  9. AbsinthSvK

    that weapon is broken for years. thats why i dont like fighting with VS. Blinding op anoying weapon.
  10. IVANPIDORVAN

    Betelgeuse

    It's overpowered not exactly because of heat mechanic, but because it makes CQC LMG also high capacity one which allow you to suppressfire/blindfire/prefire aka play role of support LMGs.

    Such weapons (EM1, EM6, Naginata, Rhino, Promise, Pulsar LSW) differ in that they have a decreased rate of fire, but increased ammo pool and access to extended magazines. Some of them have 500 reserve ammo, EM6 might contain 200rounds with 167dmg each making this effectively the champion in terms of dmg per mag, and some like naginata and promise have unique mechanics for longer bursts.

    At the other hand classic CQC LMGs: Orion, MSW-R, Anchor (+MAW) have smallest mags(50), very low total ammo pool (250), but high rate of fire = faster TTK and best hipfire accuracy in class. (BTW i still mad what NC have literally more dmg per mag because of their natural faction trait - higher damage per shot.)

    So if only Betelgeuse be based on different weapon it would be totally fine, but no, it's Orion. Thats why heat-mechanic itself isn't a main issue with betelgeuse. It gives weapon with 750x143 damage model increaced ammo pool which is gimmic of totally different subclass of LMG's and effectively makes it the best choice for vanu's heavy assault. It just have everything you need.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    GODSAW

    I am surprised why this weapon isn't so popular. I honestly think what GODSAW and GAUSS SAW are the best LMG's after Betelgeuse, but let me explain why.
    I played with Watchman and faced a player which i wasn't able to kill so i decide to calculate what exact advantage i have agaist his weapon (can you guess what he use?).
    Watchman is known as "fastest TTK if all shots headshots" LMG. But it's results against non heavies doesn't really matter because you already have advantage in form of overshield. So let just go straight to heavy vs heavy spherical duel in vacuum.

    Watchman need 6 headshots at max dmg range (15m with softpoint ammo) to kill overshielded heavy.
    His refire time is 70ms, so this means 5*70=350ms

    GODSAW needs 4 headshots with 182+dmg each which means what it able to kill you in 4 headshots up to ~52(?) meters.
    Refire time is 120ms what transfers in to 120*3=360ms

    Waow! 10ms difference between "fastest TTK if all shots headshots" and "THAT THICC BOI". Not only it have a lot more extended range, but also much more controllable recoil, it is simply strong vertical kick, while watchman have very bad horisontal recoil as well.

    On top of that let's take closer look at the stat's difference between Gauss Saw and GODSAW. Auraxium version have slightly better hip CoF (stand, move = 4.25 vs 4.5 for Gauss) and it's preinstalled Compensator doesn't have negative impact on it, effectively making difference much more dramatic. GODSAW have smaller magazine, but much more comfort reload time. So yeah, it's kinda long range LMG, but in skilled enough hands this is one of the most devastating weapons at ANY range. That's rediculous. The only downside of this weapon is what it punish you hard for every missed bullet since each adds 120ms to TTK. So thats why it's highly skill-based toy. Again, probably the strongest and most versatile weapon in entire game.

    If you want comp+grip GODSAW is your choice, however, if you like me highly appreciate hip fire accuracy and suppressors then standart Gauss Saw is your best friend.

    Oh yeah and there is also alternative fire-mode!

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    Butcher

    And that's ladies and gentlmens is the problem. It have 2ms faster refire time , waow! incredible! Extended mags, lack of forward grip aaaand... that's it.
    It also inherit horrible horisontal recoil pattern from CARV-9 which might cause your barrel to bounce 3 times in one direction before start to go opposite. This is completely unacceptable. As TR main i simple just don't use it and prefer bull+naginata instead. Damn even TMG-50 is better than Butcher.

    I suggested many many times simple fix for butcher - implement "tube" reload mechanic used by baron and pump action shotguns, but significantly speeded up. It doesn't mean what character should fill all 150 rounds manually by hands, it means what when you press R, you rise the gun, pull some lever or push some button on it (need some work on animations and weapon model) and bullets start to quickly flow from reserve ammo in to your mag. Key difference is what you can interrupt this process by just shoting and keep all ammo what already transfered in your mag. This is literally heat-mechanic like trait, but without infinite ammo pool and unability to reload while holding sidearms. Also worth mention what you cannot ADS while reload, so if you start shoot, weapon would use hip CoF stats, so they must be buffed aswell.

    As alternative devs can use "The Jackal way" with his BX Adapter rail attachment - You have like 200/200 in your primary fire mode and when it's depleted you press "gear slot" to activate "underbarrel butcher" which is just copy of primary one with same 200/200 ammo pool. This effectively will create magazine size of 400 (200+200).
    Pros - doesn't require additional work on animations.
    Cons - 800 total ammo pool is a bit to much. And game community will be filled with memes like "We put undebarrel butcher on your butcher so it become true definition of DAKKA"

    Damn, screw this tube mechanic, take away your increaced mags and 19RPM it does nothing. Just give butcher best hip fire accuracy what available in LMG class and i'll be happy (1.95 which is level of VE-H Maw with Advanced laser sight = 3.25*0.6). We already have Mini-blame gun so i guess hip fire is part of TR's faction traits anyway, so it will fit well. Even ******* Betelgeuse have 3.25, thank gods without access to laser sight!
    • Up x 2
  11. IVANPIDORVAN

    And KUWA was totally fine before nerf, YUMI's spinup, 30-round mags and 210 total ammo pool was enough to counte-balance 750x167 damage model. Reasons why it been nerfed left unknown.
  12. vonRichtschuetz

    I'm pretty sure the Betelgeuse alone is used more than all other directive primary weapons of all factions combined.

    Giving one faction's infantry the best tool for skilled players to farm infantry, because they never have to reload or resupply and it's on the most survivable class, and giving the same faction amazing tools for low to no skill players (Lasher, Unstable Ammo) and not caring about balance for years has really helped the experience of the other two factions. At least we now got the Thumper, plus a gold variant of it (only 15 bucks, wow), that's apparently supposed to fill the suppression role of the Lasher for other factions, except the magazine is too small to actually accomplish it.
    • Up x 1
  13. TraatAdmiral

    For anyone wondering, this isn't an exaggeration--it literally is used more than all other directive primaries combined.
    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,1934&startDate=2016-07-08&endDate=2020-06-26
    The Betelgeuse alone gets more kills than ALL THREE FACTIONS' directive LMGs, SMGs, carbines, assault rifles, sniper rifles, battle rifles, and shotguns combined. Last Saturday, to pick a random representative date, the Betelgeuse killed 8213 people and all other directive primaries killed 6860. The pattern is basically that the three LMGs are the most commonly used directive weapons (unsurprisingly); the Godsaw gets about half as many kills as the Betelgeuse and the Butcher gets about half as many kills as the Godsaw. There's really not a lot of room for interpretation here; I don't know how anybody can see this and conclude that the Betelgeuse is balanced relative to the other weapons.
    • Up x 2
  14. Johannes Kaiser

    I like this weapon a lot, and imo it's the perfect embodiment what an aurax weapon should be like. Very powerful, but you still might want to pick up a different weapon (even if only for attachmnet variety) depending on playstyle and situation.
    Other weapons have to be brought up to this level of general usefulness, Battlegoose needs to be toned down one way or another.
    Though I would not rate the alternative fire mode that high, personally. It's only really good to finish of fleeing vehicles that are already burning or shooting at Libs for the equivalent of a bad jumpscare. Or shoot at faraway stuff you wouldn't reliably hit with the rocket launcher anyway (read: Magriders past 80m), just to give them the middle finger of defiance.
  15. vonRichtschuetz

    Usually when bringing up the topic, every Betelgeuse main, who has most of their kills with that single weapon, will try to convince me that this weapon is "just a quality of life improvement" or "no one uses it in 1v1" or "worse than the Orion" (which is why they make 5800 kills to get it, instead of just using the Orion). Which might be true statements, but they're cherry picking on a very limited amount of things like raw TTK, which isn't the most important thing in a setting like Planetside.

    Ammo printer - which can be considered a quality of life implant (aka no one uses it on infantry because it's bad) - on the Orion restores 50 bullets into the reserve every 60s.
    The heat meachnic of the Betelgeuse restores at a rate of 12 bullets per second, after a 0.5s delay. Maximum would be 49 bullets (50 would incur overheat penalty) within 4.58s, including the delay. It's an unrealistic scenario but those would be the equivalent of restoring over 12 full magazines per minute.
    Additionally to that, the bullets are printed directly into the magazine, which means no reloads - ever. But what if there's too many people to kill and the weapon is close to overheating? Just switch to secondary. The weapon will regenerate ammo while it's not in use too. It also does that when using medkits. Close to overheat? Secondary already empty? Just sprint zigzag and chug medkits, while the enemy wastes their ammo, then kill them with a reloaded primary. By the way, it's much easier to fight that zigzagging with heat ammo, because you can keep shooting at them for a little and then regenerate instead of reload. (Side note: ever wondered why survivalist was used so much?).
    Heat also regenerates when dead. Know these chaotic point holds that are essentially decided by who spams more rez nades? Guess who always has a reloaded primary after getting rezzed.

    For high skilled players that manage to reliably hit and headshot easy targets (not gonna lie, most people in this game are easy targets), this weapon will virtually never overheat except there is an absurd amount of targets at once and there is no one else to shoot at them. Assuming easy targets don't wear nanoweave and have the +50 shield thing, on up to 41m range, the gun need 9 bullets to kill with bodyshots only and no misses. Assuming no headshots and 50% accuracy, which seems realistic for a good player, needing 18 bullets for a target (1.44s, assume 2 with burst firing), taking 2 seconds to regenerate after each kill, it would still need more than 15 kills per minute to overheat the weapon. The Orion with 50+250 bullets would run out of bullets in 16 kills in this scenario, and it would be additionally possible to get surprised while reloading instead of waiting for heat to regenerate.

    The weapon is an Orion without attachments, which isn't a huge loss considering how controllable the recoil of the Orion is. Where other weapons pay for accuracy with small magazine size, lower rpm, or lower damage model, the Betelgeuse pays close to nothing for an infite magazine with infinite ammo supply. The weapon (tested with Orion without attachments), even for me as a mediocre shooter, is very controllable when ADS up to 30m, which is enough in a game that's combined arms, but 99% of fights are indoors and infantry vs infantry.

    So why the Betelgeuse and not the other heat weapons? - Survivability.
    The HA offers adrenaline shield, maybe assimilate, which makes good players that can reliably hit headshots almost unkillable.
    The Darkstar on the Medic has lower rpm, less bullets to overhat and a less consistent recoil pattern. Aside from that Combat Surgeon and Carapace are needed for a more surviveable playstyle, blockin other implants from being used.
    The Eclipse on LA/Engineer. Well. LA survives easier with a silencer and usually doesn't have the standing power for prolonged fights anyway. Without being able to take a hit and immediately regenerate it on kill, and having access to ammo packs, heat doesn't give any useable bonus.
    The Obelisk is used more than the Dragoon and the Bishop, with essentially the same damage model / rpm / recoil. Not surprising since it can be used on Infiltrator, who avoids getting damaged by hiding and profits immensely from not having to get ammo. While that should be looked at, it's not as big of a difference as the Betelgeuse.

    All in all, giving this tool to only one faction, as well as having the same faction access the Lasher as the only effective area denial weapon for infantry, and both having been issues for years and not been reconsidered for balance (the Thumper only exists because NSO needed a weapon and with 6 rounds it's hardly an area denial weapon), probably has had lasting effects on distribution of skilled players across the three factions. In a game with 90% being infantry and no matchmaking, having acces to the best farming tool, while not being annoyed by low skill players spamming area denial is definitely the most convenient experience for a skilled player.

    In an MMO with no matchmaking, the balance of factions must be ensured by making all of them equally interesting for good players to play. Otherwise they will accumulate on the most convenient faction. In WoW most elite players play Horde for racial abilites. Sometimes it's a quality of life rocket jump, a quality of life shorter duration of snare effects, sometimes it's just a 1% difference in damage per second. Even the smallest difference will lead to good players accumulating on one faction. It has happend in PS2, and at this point in time it's questionable if it can be fixed anytime soon.

    Sorry for the cluttered post, haven't organized it.
    • Up x 4
  16. IVANPIDORVAN

    Edits:
    Also, does anyone remember Soldier Soaker? Summer event pistol which had heat mechanic, but was unable to cooldown. It is also a good way of implementing "big mag" for butcher. Probably the easiest way.

    To be completely clear, watchman need only 120dmg to kill overshielded heavy in 6 headshots which he able to do up to 23meters, not 15.
    Also, in both cases i used 1450hp as total health pool and ignored the fact what adrenaline and NMG have "activation cost" just to simplify math (i forget exact ammounts, somewhere below 50) so in reality it is slightly further than 23 and 52 meters.
  17. Blam320



    You do realize you can go back and edit your posts, right?
  18. Demigan

    If you look at the post you quoted you can see he did edit that one.
    These forums allow for a maximum of 30 minutes of editing, after that you cannot edit anymore. Seeing his previous post was yesterday he could no longer edit it.
  19. Campagne

    Generally speaking you're not wrong, (even though the NC tend to have the smallest magazines when not equal). However in this instance the VS actually have the highest DPM of any of these CQC LMGs with the MAW's 60-round magazines.

    It's important to remember small differences is theoretical TTKs are very often magnified in practice. The minute difference won't always be so small.

    The Watchman will also be a lot more usable in CQC and shorter ranges it is meant for than the SAW will be due to RoF differences alone. It's very well known that ease of use is often more powerful than actual stats are. If chaining headshots with the SAW was so easy it's would happen more often.

    Actually if you want a compensator and grip the base SAW is slightly better for that. The GODSAW's attachments are slightly inferior in favour of suffering slightly lower penalties.

    The GODSAW is good for very long range semi-auto and bursts and the much more usable reload times.[/quote]
  20. Trebb

    Excellent post! I didn't even think of the post- resurrect advantage; thinking back, everytime I'm ressed I'm almost immediately killed as I only have 3 shots left.

    But again, I'm not making yet another 'Beetelgeuse OP' post, but rather, the other factions need to be lifted up. There's enough nerfs in game.

    I'm also curious why they nerfed the NSO directive weapon (Kuwa) when, with the Yumi like spinup it was already worse than the goose directive gun. /boggle
    • Up x 2