Remove Nanoweave

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Wiborg17, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Wiborg17

    Are they ever going to remove nanoweave? It's such a terrible thing to have in the game.
    First of all it more or less completely removes the other armor slots from the game. Yes, having faster shields is awesome, more grenades is brilliant, medic nano thing recharges faster? All of it is awesome, but when one of the slots is literally "juggernaut" from Call of Duty, then why would you use anything else at all?
    I know there's a lot of players who are like "I still enjoy using grenade bandolier for this and this situation", that's great, but most of the time you know you're putting juggernaut on, and so is most of the playerbase.

    Secondly it makes everybody a bulletsponge. As much as I enjoy the reward it grants to really accurate players, removing juggernaut wouldn't really take too much away from that anyways. Your time to kill, headshot wise, wouldn't change and a skillful player would still dominate.
    Having to put in almost half your magazine (unless you're TR) to kill someone, unless you manage to hit the head, is a death sentence in practice, especially for slower shooting guns. If you aren't hitting the head, the guns in this game are nothing but hitmarker machines and it ruins any immersion the game has, if you ask me.

    I suck at making threads, Jesus Christ, but if I can say anything: why do you think the devs at Call of Duty removed perks like stopping power and juggernaut? Imagine if there was an implant (or armor slot) that increased your small arms damage output by 20%, would you not use that?

    Just remove it please, it's never a good idea to have something that just straight up boosts your health in the vast majority of situations, in a sandbox game like Planetside 2.
    • Up x 3
  2. DarkStarAnubis

    " ...it makes everybody a bulletsponge..."

    any weapon dealing between 200 and 110 DMG per bullet (that is: every LMG/Assault Rifle/Carbine) need 2 extra bullets in the body to kill someone wearing nanoweave. With the vast majority of those weapons it means 200-250ms additional time.
  3. Gooyoung

    It just adds more to the list of "be a headshot magnet or u ded bruv ur 100% acc bodyshot sucks"
    • Up x 1
  4. ColdBackHAND

    Not everyone uses it. And using nanoweave doesn't give a advantage.
  5. Somentine

    lol wut to both those sentences
  6. InexoraVC

    Removing Nanoweawe won't change the game because this game is about headshots.
    I've played as a HA without nanoweave and seen nothing terrifying. For example: adrenaline shield + advanced shield capacitor + nanomech specialist + survivalist/assimilate give you more "spongeness", than adrenaline shield + nanoweave.
    • Up x 4
  7. Demigan

    I say make nanoweave build in on every player, and make it count for headshots too.

    PS2's infantry combat is more interesting because it takes a bit more time to kill your opponent. It's not the spray&pray bullethell that many COD games and similar have and that is perfect. It also means that the wide amount of additional skills, such as trigger discipline, COF control, knowledge of damage degradation etc become more important so you don't need just pure arena-style accuracy and twitch combat to win.
    • Up x 1
  8. DarkStarAnubis

    The first part is akin to a blanket increase of shield/health pool from 500/500 to say, 600/600. or a 20% DMG reduction of all weapons. It won't change much the picture except for freeing a slot in the equipment. It is a basic increase of TTK.

    Not that i am against longer TTK (quite the opposite) but I would prefer to achieve it via another way: I would make weapons even more lethal but with higher Bloom and higher initial CoF. There is a reason why many auto weapons have a 3-rounds burst option between single-shot and full-auto.

    That would make any auto weapon even less "pray and spray" and force people to learn trigger discipline (bursting) and moving carefully (positioning), make them better players at the end. Also, it will educe the average killing distance making fights more intense and personal instead of having LA/HA potshotting each other from 100 meters apart. One day I killed someone (pixel-size shape) with a Tengu. This is just stupid.

    While on that, have a pass at crouch-spamming and ADADing. You can do that but you will have an additional Cof penalty due to fatigue. Then good luck hitting the broadside of a barn after doing that stupid dance.

    Same goes for HS multiplier. Just leave as it is, but make it far more difficult to achieve unless you position yourself very well and have time to aim properly or you are very good at bursting or you are very close. Reward good play-style.
    • Up x 2
  9. Somentine

    CoF and Bloom are RNG, which is not fun.

    Good players already burst.

    Crouching doesn't need fatigue or anything like that, they just need to force the full animation (and possibly slow it down a tad).

    No one spams ADAD; do that and you are going to walk into bullets. If you think strafing while firing should have even harsher penalties... yeah, no.
  10. TR5L4Y3R

    ... i don´t know, i would rather just decrease the headshotmultiplyer on about all fully automatic weapons .. maybe not to 1.5 but like 1.75 as in if someone use a full auto the emphasis then should be on torsoshots ...
    • Up x 2
  11. Demigan

    I say let's take the best of both worlds: Make Nanoweave standard, make it apply to the head as well and have a small to moderate increase in COF blooms. That way you increase the skill requirement for trigger discipline, reduce the ultra-importance of headshots over everything else and with that make sure current accurate chain-headshot weapons don't stay the most powerful no-brainer choice for veterans.

    The ADAD and crouch spam can be solved in a multitude of ways. Increased COF is a good one if you change direction too often in a small timeframe, adding a slow effect similar to bunny-hopping does would help as well since the act of ADAD spam is aimed at spoofing the latency system.

    COF, bloom and RNG are arguably the most fun you can have. The point is that you have to mentally do chance calucations for how far the target is, how big your COF can go before the amount of misses becomes unacceptable and the chances of getting a kill before that.

    If it wasn't about RNG then all FPS games would revolve around two people doing the western 10 paces, turning and shooting each other. Every variable known beforehand, no changes. But that's not interesting, interesting is having to look through passages, map your way to your goal, calculating the amount of resistance you'll encounter along the way and from where, calcuating the amount of allies that may or may not help you along various points, avoiding places where you'll be at a disadvantage, trying to catch others off-guard, knowing the ranges you might have to fight at, the weapon choice you've made and the impact it has on all these variables, reacting to the situation when you ineviteably get into a fight that may or may not be in your favor, handling the situation in it's entire complexity of damage degradation, COF, bloom, RNG, movement of yourself and your enemy, available cover for you and your enemy, height differences, potential interference of allies and enemies and more. Most of these things I've done even before the spawn timer is up, and this keeps changing every time the situation changes and I get new information about enemy movement, friendly movement, ammo counts, health and shield status and all the good crap.

    RNG is the lifeblood of any game. Even simpler games like Chess where all potential moves can theoretically be predicted still rely on the "RNG" of what move your opponent finally makes. To say that RNG isn't fun is to say you don't like games at all. So why are you here?
    • Up x 2
  12. Somentine

    Not an equivalent example, though I get what you're trying to say.

    Some RNG can be/is good, but even using your example of player choice as RNG, there is a staggering amount of RNG already in the game. Arbitrarily increasing it to increase TTK isn't a good way to go about it; if you want higher TTK, either lower wep dmg or increase health/resistances.

    Even bursting/micro bursting can lead to lots of missed bullets at medium range for a bunch of weps. Adding more chance for them to deviate isn't fun.
  13. Demigan

    It is not an arbitrary increase, it's a calculated increase. The current COF bloom etc have helped the weapons become more unique and add a depth to the gunplay. The idea to add more COF bloom is a solid one. Yes there is more chance of them to deviate if you keep holding the trigger, but why are you telling me that's immediately unfun? It's fun to have on the current weapons as opposed to having no COF at all. In fact if we had no COF at all the game would be boring as all hell. A high-ROF CQC weapon is kept in check by the way it's COF blooms and keeps it unique as an option compared to longer range weapons. But there is currently a problem in the game that high-accurate weapons are too accurate in the hands of veterans, and they can lay waste to players in fractions of a second while requiring half as much skill as someone with a non-accurate weapon who has to control his RNG. So increasing the COF bloom is a solid idea to increase the differences between weapons while simultaneously making the skill requirement of trigger discipline almost as important as the skill to aim. That would be awesome as hell.
    Sure there's always people who wouldn't be able to handle it and not enjoy it. But that's the same with the current situation. The difference is that right now you cannot adequately compensate a lower accuracy with a higher trigger discipine. But if we increase COF bloom that would become a possibility making the game surprisingly more accessible to a larger amount of players as they can beat someone in more ways than one.
  14. Somentine

    Again, high acc weapons aren't dominating the game.

    Also again, as even mediocre youtube guides will tell you, bursting your shots cannot be stressed enough. The average acc % for most weapons is an abysmal ~20%, and that is almost always accompanied by a just as significantly low HSR%, which means that is ~20% acc WHILE aiming for centre mass.

    And that is counting high acc weapons like the promise (33.2% acc [which isn't even that good tbh] of my promise is top 3% of all players). That's absolutely laughable.

    I want to highlight this point especially. Most players can actually put a crosshair over the body of a player fairly easily, actually scoring a kill is a different story. The reason most players have low acc is because of how they control the recoil and bloom (not bursting). I really gotta be honest here, I think you are way off the mark and need to have a better look at how players are actually playing this game.
  15. Demigan

    As has been pointed out, not for the average player. For the absolute top it starts removing the need for other skills.

    And you don't notice the trend here that regardless of weapon type the accuracy rating is around the same numbers for all these weapons? Isn't it strange that the average accurate weapon will have such a small higher accuracy rating?

    Well it's not strange. It has to do with how people engage others, rather than the weapon. When you engage someone you do so when you think you have a shot at killing your opponent or getting them to do something you want (like hide behind cover so you can close the distance). So rather than the accuracy mattering, it's the range at which they achieve that accuracy. This is why low-RPM weapons almost always have a higher accuracy, with sniper rifles being almost exclusively in the 50 to 60% ratio for almost every game in the world with PS2 not being an exception: That is the level of accuracy needed to get a kill with some reliability. You don't get to see the time it took behind each shot or the situation that the player decided was worth a shot, but it's there.

    Also how do you know that it's "while aiming for center mass"? Headshot accuracy is only counted for headshot kills. Since COF blooms during your shots the last shot is more likely to be a bodyshot for the average player, even if the opening shot(s) were headshots.

    Lastly average hitbox size is also important. Take the game Renegade where even someone standing against you wouldn't fill your screen, as opposed to games like COD where someone 5m away fills most of your screen (a small exaggeration). Can you guess which game makes it easier to hit your opponent and thus affect the accuracy ratings?
    PS2 doesn't have the biggest hitboxes. The fact that it's an MMOFPS also means that most ranges are much longer than in more arena-style games. Fights are fought from door-to-door, cover-to-cover, rather than inside the rooms themselves (which only happens in the last stage of a push). That has an impact on accuracy ratings too.

    How do you know? From what I see of youtube video's putting the crosshair on an enemy isn't the easiest thing for most people. Maybe you should have a good hard look yourself.
  16. Somentine

    It's the opposite, actually. The higher the skill; more control at bursting to stretch the range of weapons, better positioning, better recoil control, better leading all mean the more CQC, 'lower accuracy' weapons are better in the vast majority of cases.

    Yeah, that would be cool and all, if CQC and 0-50m wasn't the majority of engagements.

    How do you know they weren't aiming for the body, but bloomed into the head for the last bullet?
    Experience.

    Renegade was a TPS game, if you actually switched to FP, models would take up a large chunk of the screen.
    I'm not comparing other games, i'm comparing acc between PS2 players, and besides that PS2 models aren't small.

    Odd, I see the opposite. They have the decent crosshair placement but can't control their weapons. Who is right, I wonder?
  17. Demigan

    Yes weapons like the GD-7F are definitely the most used by veterans and accurate weapons are definitely ignored by those same veterans. /S

    I detect memory leakage on your end. Most combat does not happen in CQC and 50m is already far from CQC.

    Yes, the problem is your biased experience does not match the experiences I have. And I've been in enough discussions like this that I've actively paid attention rather than just remember the points where it confirmed bias.

    Since I was one of the players that did not use third-person during combat because I realized it gave a massive unfair advantage with hitscan weapons I have a lot more experience with it than you is my guess. And when people were standing against you, "a fair chunk" is very little compared to the "fills your entire screen". But my guess is that you think "a fair chunk" is more than 50%, while in Renegade "a fair chunk" would be closer to 20%.

    I'm not wondering. Bias is a strong and easy thing to aquire. Sure I'll have loads of it too, but I do pay attention to reduce it while you obviously don't.

    Remember you started with "arbitrarily increase COF". But it's not arbitrary in the least as I've already explained what it would do and the necessity of having COF blooms should be self-evident. I'm trying to use the advantages of COF bloom to make the game have more depth, yet you ignore that COF blooms have any advantage at all and keep repeating that for some magical reason everyone would suddenly have a crappy time the moment we made COF bloom more important to weapons even though that same COF bloom is what helped PS2's combat remain entertaining and keep the game alive for this long. Because we all know that it's not really the dev's changes that have kept the game alive now do we?
  18. Somentine

    Almost no weapon is ignored. You claim that high acc weps dominate, they don't.

    Most combat does, and you will notice the nice 'and' in between CQC and 0-50m.

    It has nothing to do with bias. If you are consistently aiming for the head, then you will consistently have higher HSR %. It doesn't matter if on some you pull down after 2-3 HS and aim at the body, overall it will still be a significant difference.

    Experience, alone, would be enough to tell you this, but you're so out of tune with the game you have no idea what you're talking about. Also lol, forumside.

    Played Renegade for literally years.

    [IMG]



    Bias is a strong and easy thing to aquire. Sure I'll have loads of it too, but I do pay attention to reduce it while you obviously don't.

    You can have depth of gameplay without increasing RNG elements. You don't even need any CoF bloom to make gun-play unique. Deterministic bullet spread is one way, and it still rewards bursting (to avoid having to memorize and duplicate spray patters for accuracy).
  19. Blam320

    If high-accuracy weapons don't dominate, why then do any Heavy Assaults worth their salt almost exclusively use the NS-15?
  20. The Shady Engineer

    0.75x ADS, only one tier of damage drop-off and a large capacity magazine that reloads unusually quickly. Good traits for an all-rounder type weapon. Up close ES CQC LMG's still dominate though.

    Quick edit: The NS15 also has pretty good hipfire. For an LMG at least.