[Suggestion] The VS 'Developer' faction thread!

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Trebb, May 7, 2020.

  1. KhlorosTesero

    The cmmon VS argument is, "We do less damage" which is a lie, they have the damage output of TR weapons, damn close to their fire right as well, but rocil patterns that actually stay on target.

    I seriously would go VS in a heart beat if i did not already have 100s vested into TR ****. Its gotten to the point now where i just dont even engage VS anymore, its not a fair fight with anything of theirs, even with TR Carv9 or MSW, which is the only 2 decent LMGs we have, they both get smoked by the orion. They have the same theoretical TTK, but you cant kill if your gun cant stay on a target for more then a few rounds.
    • Up x 2
  2. Demigan

    Other options:
    They are more skilled (unlikely, they don't score better with NS weapons, only their ES weapons).
    They play longer because they win more often due to their weapons being superior.
    • Up x 1
  3. pnkdth


    Not sure individual skill causes someone to more or less, though one who is more skilled probably have played for longer. We also know that VS doesn't have as many new players playing as well which could affect time played (and the minor difference in data we saw). Sort of like how weapons with a large pool of users tend to drag weapon stats down.

    However, the effect of logging in and immediately see your outfit whole and active (without being stuck in a queue and/or be a solo player) cannot be discounted, regardless of how deep the teamwork or whatever is which goes on in there is. If you are in an outfit which is organised and you truly know each individual it is even more significant. This also goes into previous observations of massive outfits such as DIG (Miller) and my argument for VS' success not being that they are more skilled but they show up and do the work. Consistent leadership beats highly organised leadership that's not there. Certainly doesn't hurt that it is easy to get your whole outfit where you want them to go either.

    The 0.1 difference between is so small it would be rather incredible leap to claim VS weapons as a whole being superior. I mean, nerfing the BG would cause a big wave all on its own since VS tend to play HA more than any faction given their ARs/Carbines are pretty damn meh in comparison to the other factions. It is a possibility that some weapons are (I'd say the BG definitely is) though.

    The reason people use the Orion/BG is because the other options do less DPS. 143 damage with 652/698 RPM is the standard template for VS LMGs but later patches saw all factions have some form of CQC carbine/AR. The moment NC got a taste of the Promise (143/698) it was universally hailed as mediocre but accurate.

    The main issue is just how much of a no brainer the BG is. It took the most competitive LMG VS has and made it perfect for Live play. The main arguments which claim the BG isn't as good as the Orion is mostly referring to the lack of a grip (affecting accuracy). While this is true it is only really relevant in 1v1s and smaller skirmishes (like 12v12s in competitive events) the slight loss in accuracy in favour of the heat mechanic is well worth it on the Live servers.
    • Up x 2
  4. brutes359

    Hey guys just an update over here. yesterday i said the vanu had controll of all continants...keep in mind thats a capture rouphly every four hours or so over twenty four hours. just got back on now. they STILL have all four continants. nothings changed.

    oh yea. and for you guys claiming outfits are the reason vs are winning so much. if thats the case, why dont we see that same argument for TR or NC? me and my buddies still hold highest vehicle and aircraft kills on console. stil hasnt changed a dang thing. watched vs hold a tech plant yesterday outnumber three to one. and with the "new and improved" implants system giving every vanu access to the athlete and survivalist perks (which i may add is so perfectly adapted to their higher than average hipfire accuracy it might as well be faction exclusive) im watching literally single vanu being shot at by over 15 nc at a time just jumping in circles and lauphing over the mic.....so yea. daybreak. not sure what you guys are doing over there. but this is getting old.
  5. Blam320



    Were you present for the alerts that VS won? Do you even know the circumstances that led to them winning?
  6. KhlorosTesero

    Once again on emerald, VS controlled all 4 again, and continued to win every single alert. As always.

    Like i said, just dont fight vanu, its not worth it, more and more i see both TR and NC branching off to fight their own conflicts because neither of them want to fight the vanu
    • Up x 1
  7. Demigan

    The Promise is hailed as a so-so LMG because it has 698 RPM where the Orion has 750RPM (at least according to the wiki).

    When considering the time played, veterans with high skill are more likely to play longer, that is where they usually get their skill from. But since we dont see that back with NS weapons that isnt the case and something else needs to cause it.

    That leaves two options: your "they get to play where and with who" and "they win more often". We KNOW that players leave if they are on a losing faction (and the numbers show these players staying logged off, the winning faction does not get a surge of new players). So if your faction avoids this by consistently winning, you see more players play longer. That doesnt mean your option doesnt boost that number.

    What does need to be taken into account: just because it might be more difficult to get everyone to the same continent does NOT mean that the more numerous factions are worthless at teamplay. Even before the punishing number caps against zerging the VS consistently won more often, so its not that they can get their outfits together more easily. Its quite the opposite in fact as VS has (or had?) Been equalizing their win-rate somewhat in recent years.
    And again: where would the VS get better organization skills if they have no provable superior skills anywhere else? Its like being a mavelous wonder at ONLY multiplication math but being just as good at addition, subtraction and division math as everyone else. While theoretically possible for one person per a few thousand (or make that billion), having a large part of an entire faction do this is just too statistically unlikely.
    • Up x 1
  8. pnkdth


    It was a response to someone claiming VS have just as good DPS and 143/750 > 143/698. Since the majority of LMGs VS have an average ROF I corrected him. Hence, accurate by mediocre. Furthermore, since the Orion/BG are the only LMGs even considered worth a damn on this VS I thought it prudent to point out that if swing the nerf bat too hard and hit all the other mediocre weapons VS has just to get at the overpowered BattleGoose things would get pretty silly.

    Being a vet does not mean you're good at the game as a whole. If you ignore SPOs and run around with your mates you're likely to be really good at a more individual play style while sacrificing other areas. In other words, the basics of team play or cooperation (low level synergy or "you scratch my back, I scratch yours"). Even by joining up with an outfit with low level of micro-organisation (2-12 players) but a good level of macro-organisation (platoons and large numbers) will yield much better results. Macro-organisation is what wins the war. Bigger outfits catch a lot of crap but their effectiveness speaks for itself. It becomes even greater when you have a smaller squad with high quality of micro-organisation (DIG + DIGT comes to mind).

    "Just because it might be more difficult to get everyone to the same continent does NOT mean that the more numerous factions are worthless at teamplay." Not once have I made this claim. I've detailed frictions in the process of fostering cooperation and teamwork or do you consider it an advantage to have half your platoon stuck in a queue? People do stick around if they're winning (some even jump ship and join the winning faction, people zerg, etc) but if even before the event start they are stuck waiting in line or is stuck fighting against no one on an empty continent they likely not to associate PS2 with a fun experience.

    "where would the VS get better organization skills if they have no provable superior skills anywhere else?" We see this all the time in the workplace, in sports, and so on. It also so happens this is the reason I have a job because even raw talent and skill need someone who directs them (it is hard to be good at everything so I help them be good at what they do so we in turn become great).

    TL;DR: Decent levels or organisation will always beat high levels of organisation that isn't there (or is otherwise not able to be present).
  9. Demigan

    True.

    This is completely up to the game, not the player. I usually play "solo", but as said "solo" is a more or less meaningless term in this game. I constantly use my teammates. They form battle-lines, make the enemy gather in certain spots. Then I exploit that in order for them to move on.
    The game determines how much each action is worth. Currently the "macro organization" of "everyone go there" is superior because there is practically nothing else to do. Small organization is made nigh impossible due to the lack of communication methods, such as some players not even taking the time to tell a non-SPO member that they have someone else for their topgun. And there is precious little cooperation to be had otherwise such as repairing others.
    As an example what more cooperation could do: The Forwards Station. Medics become more important to the game as they can now push the frontline and change it by placing weak spawnpoints. This allows players to cooperate more easily, as a Medic can open up a new frontline or attack route solo or by gathering one or two players to protect him while he moves as deep into enemy territory as possible, keeping his guards alive in that time. In the meantime the opposition is encouraged to find and destroy these Forwards Stations.
    Add a few more of those relatively small-scale but impactful idea's and suddenly macro-organization becomes less important than cooperation. Why try to use incredibly wide and unfavorable communications to guide a large group of players if you are better off letting them communicate on the small-scale with each other and cooperate to accomplish their goals? Suddenly that Macro organization falls into place into a large puzzle: Macro allows you to get your people there, after which (like in real life) the sub-leaders and soldiers themselves need to take over and set small goals themselves to reach the end-goal of capturing the base.

    You have indirectly made that claim. If the VS can get off better teamwork because they can get their SPO's into continents more easily and then win the continent because of this, then it has to be because the NC and TR teamwork suffers despite the larger numbers of players around. Several half-platoons with the other half stuck in a queue does not matter if those platoons are still active, meaning they would have more people total in SPO's active and working on the continent.

    No we don't see this?!? Where do we see this? If we have 3 office teams with similar composition, we have to assume that the larger these teams are the more similar they'll be due to the laws of averages. And while in the office we might have a bunch of Managers trained to organise a group, we have to assume that is overall total skills and traits (agility, strength, intelligence etc) are more or less average as well. And again: Why would one team have multiple better managers, if we are talking about teams of 1000+ semi-randomly distributed people? Where all the office-workers show practically the exact same average skills and traits as the others?

    And again you say the the NC and TR would have less levels of organization. And you ignore that it is better and easier for the people underneath the manager to cooperate as easily and smoothly as possible. You never heard the mantra of "the best managers don't have anything to do"? That's because the best managers make sure everything is running smoothly with as little input necessary (ofcourse they get other duties to make sure it keeps running smoothly).
  10. pnkdth


    No, you presupposed I made that claim based on your own views on SPOs and your default position that I'm only talking about how VS is the superior master race/is superior in skill.

    A better example would be if you have a team of 5 people with relevant skills only you don't know who will be there and when because the room is randomly filled to capacity making it a logistical nightmare to get things done. Hell, one day you have a new group of people you've never met show up. Similarly, you really do not want a high turnover since you have to retrain and onboard new people into what is now a new composition of a team. Hence the argument for why shorter queues and intact teams is a good thing. This does not speak to individual and remarkable talents among VS but rather the reality of it being easier to achieve cooperation and teamwork when you're working with the same or near the same individuals.

    I'm not much for platitudes and since you immediately contradicted that mantra by saying, well, they actually have to do a lot of things around direction (which isn't just telling and ordering people around). That said, I endeavour not to be a micro-managing leader since I find that kind of leadership hurts in both productivity and trust. So there is some truth to it nonetheless.

    It is hardly the only contributing factor though and VS hasn't really been the outlier historically either (since VS and TR both have similar alert wins). Recently, quite a lot has happened though and bizarrely NC got one of the largest nerfs in recent memory with their MAX units despite being the one factions which has fallen behind..
  11. TRspy007

    Very true.

    I don't believe a faction is OP over another, but generally I've seen people avoid fighting VS. Usually, whenever VS finally come to crash the NC vs TR fight, everyone ends up leaving except VS .

    That's usually why no one really wants to fight VS, their weapons generally have more potential, which attracts more skilled players, which makes most people try to avoid fights with VS.
    • Up x 2
  12. Demigan

    No I didnt.

    If:
    The team with less people is superior because they can get their SPO's together more easily
    Then:
    SPO's that have to wait for a spot because of the other SPO's and randoms are inferior in their teamwork.

    Its a simple logical consequence of your words.

    You are making a few random assumptions:
    1: the slots taken by other players are automatically randoms.
    2: the distribution of SPO's is uneven, the smaller team automatically has more SPO players available
    3: partial SPO's automatically suck at their job
    4: teamplay is so incredibly stunted and inflexible in this game, that a partial team immediately nukes your ability to do teamplay.

    You interpret it wrong. The idea is that a good manager does the micro and macro once, then doesnt have to steer his pupils anymore as he did it right the first time. The "contradiction" means just that managers still have to take stock of what is happening and make sure the right materials are around and mediate between people.

    In military terms you see this return. The general does not scream into the ear of the private what they need to do. The general gives overall direction, and each rank below him/her goes into more detail in how this direction is executed, until you get to the people who actually are doing stuff. We currently have practically only the generals who can scream in your ear.

    The VS has historically not been the ultimate faction of doom and the TR has been much closer than many players would like you to believe, but they ARE leading by a fair margin more than pure chance would allow for.
  13. pnkdth


    Yup. My response was aimed towards the idea that VS has amazing weapons across the board. We're talking about relatively small changes which can have very big impact. For example, nerfing the BG would probably change a great deal as most VS players is likely to go back to the Orion. I personally think think there's quite a lot you can do for the 143/698 damage model (velocity and controllability, to name a few) to make them more appealing weapons.

    The point about "inferior teamwork" is not that they are inherently worse at it but as a consequence of overpopulation and queues (or perhaps underpopulation of VS). I'm not even sure what your point is anymore because now you've suddenly quoted own own argument back at me.

    1. Nope, it does not have to be random. Different with a larger pool of players makes it more random though (not just due to outfit but because you have to log in advance to get ahead in the queue).
    2. It is EXTREMELY unlikely things are evenly distributed but even if they are the increased in population makes things more fragmented + No, I'm saying those SPOs who are will have all their players available.
    3. Nope, their job is made more difficult + it can impact the enjoyment of existing players.
    4. See, point 3.
  14. Johannes Kaiser

    As much as I hate to say it, I've come to the conclusion that he's not wrong here. At least on NC side. Just 30 minutes ago we won an alert because NC actually used the command voice chat for once, the only people who were completely unresponsive as a group was - you probably guessed that right - BHO. They stuck in a pointless fight for almost an hour with everyone else telling them to please use their numbers somewhere where it mattered. Which sucks then they are the largest organised group around (using the word "organised" in the loosest possible way here).
    And just the fact that all of a sudden I heard the command chat almost made me fall out of my chair in joyous surprise. Not used to that at all any more.

    Tried playing my little VS guy yesterday, their weapons feel extremely ... accomodating. Not saying across the board they're better, they just feel way better in their handling and easier to use.
  15. Demigan

    How much would that solve? Wouldn't the Orion still be a superior choice compared to most LMG's? The best option would ofcourse be to get all weapons to be viable and solid choices but that seems to be out of the question with how little they want to chance headshot multipliers.

    My point is that they have no reason to be inherently worse as a consequence of overpopulation. They would have more SPO members total doing teamwork available than the lower pop faction regardless of how many are stuck in a queue. And if teamwork is so badly balanced that several half populated teams would instantly be worse as a single full populated team we have an even bigger problem than I always proclaim.

    1: Yes it does, because even with half SPO's but a larger total playerbase busy with teamwork they should be superior. Hence they can only be worse if they have more randoms take those slots.
    2: How would fragmented make it worse? Unless the system can't handle small-scale teamwork (like for example a lack of communication mechanics between different SPO's) it can't make it worse.
    3: What I said: They suck at their job because it's made more difficult. But why would it be more difficult? They can now micro more instead of macro because the total workload is less. Or could it be that the system for teamwork is so stunted that this isn't feasible?
    4: Your point 3 is basically my point 4 but with less harsh words.
  16. pnkdth


    I wasn't aware the Orion was the issue.

    VS has an easier time to mobilise their numbers due to being under-populated. This is true regardless of what you and I say (and I'm not really interested in rehashing the discussion on SPOs or leadership in general given we will never ever see eye to eye on this).
  17. iller

    I don't just assume that the VS have better anything...

    But I DO have a problem with the DEVs all being VS & LightAssault mains and us not having any "representation" across other factions & classes ever since Higby and Clegg left. ...and there's still one really obvious thing to point out here as well: Bullet Spread. RNG deciding accuracy is ALWAYS a big "Agency depriving" mechanic regardless of game and even Genre you play... and statistically it is going to favor VS weapons because slightly less recoil and noticeably less random spread 5+ rounds into a continuous magazine dump actually is their "stock" infantry advantage and SHOULD IN THEORY always have LESS Head Shot Critical damage than the other 2 factions. ...but it doesn't and I can't help but think this "oversight" continues to exist for one reason and one reason only which is solely down to those same Devs not being aware of their own Infantry precognitive biases.

    The response back from veteran players is always: "Well, you're using your guns wrong, burst fire you newb". ...EXCEPT we don't ever get any sort of Tutorial for the other factions or Practice "Bot walkway" style of training ground in which to actually learn burst firing against real moving targets. ....that's a special kind of "Conditioning Breaking" exercise that needs a "solo labbing" bridge built towards it from the Developer to the Laymen player base. It DOES NOT EVER HAPPEN on its own for them unless their outfit runs Drills that requires them to train for it. (and almost no outfit I'm aware of that accept newbish players ever runs those drills)
  18. pnkdth


    The MSW-R has lower recoil (0.35 versus 0.4) than the Orion while the Orion has 0.01 less bloom per shot (0.05 versus 0.04). On other weapons they share the same bloom per shot and the amount of recoil varies but mostly it comes down to rate of fire (which govern different damage models such as 143/167 damage weapons). The idea that VS simply is more accurate is nothing but a myth created from a time when we didn't know the values on the weapons (however, when two prolific weapons such as the Orion and BattleGoose has lower bloom, it is easy to make that mistake).
  19. Clone117

    When it comes down to vs opness\cancer. Its a series of several individual minor advantages over the other too factions. Throw in the few implants and upgrades that further increase those advantages and your left with an ez mode faction that is basically handed a win on a silver platter. Mostly over on ps4 vs doesnt have a major force going till its time to lock continant then suddenly vs out pops tr and nc combined and it becomes impossible to push against on a smaller level due to what feels like multiple 40 plus forces redoploying every where. I think tr stands a better chance against vs simply due to being less gimped than nc overall. Precision\accuracy trumps all here. Being able to have that and mobility is what makes fighting vs so frustrating.
  20. Demigan

    1: I actually want to know where you get the information about what they play? VS I can believe, but LA I cant believe.
    2: bullet spread and RNG are the lifeblood of a game. If everything were always 100% predictable it would get boring fast. Chess can be fun but it is the randomness of your opponent that makes it fun as you have to predict their moves as well as your own.
    Bullet spread is a perfect mechanic in that regard. "How many times can I fire at this distance before the misses become unacceptable". If you dont want that you can play a twitch shooter that puts its emphasis on manual accuracy and headshots. (Or puts it even more on that, our devs have had the brainfart to make PS2 an MLG ready game at some point and boosted the headshot value too much, this failed but they kept the headshot ratio for no reason at all). Add in PS2's recoil on top of bulletspread and it becomes a real good skill to know your weapon, its recoil pattern, its spread at different ranges, the chance you'll have to hit your target at different ranges, the damage model at different ranges etc. This reliance on a variety of predictive skills to know your weapon could even be improved by reducing the mentioned high headshot value to their old value.