[Suggestion] The VS 'Developer' faction thread!

it will surprise you but I wrote that exactly because I did

That's what I pointed out that VS can have all those Wunderwaffen sorry I would say gimmicks (*), thus achieving faction identity exactly because in the grand scheme of things (IVI, KDR, TTL, SPM, you-name-it, ...) those do not make VS infantry dominate the battlefield.

if you read carefully the NC mafia is not saying anymore "VS weapons kills faster/safer/..." : that would be beyond ridiculous.

They are now saying "VS has cool things, we want them too, ngheeeee".

(*) I am inclined to give the VE-C Horizon some credit, it is the only 0.0 CoF/ 0.0 Bloom weapon in the game but it is not an automatic killing machine at the end and the pellets mechanism degrades damage faster than other weapons.

I'm sure you're not referring to me, but I'm thinking more along the lines of "VS' stuff is actually VS, why don't the NC have any minor beneficial mechanics?" The TR at least have larger magazines most of the time, why can't the NC get something kinda sorta useful/not negative on more of their guns?

I'm thinking something along the lines of a tungsten liner but instead of being a worthless self-nerf it just increased maximum damage within like 10 meters or so. Just enough to negate the affects of an auxiliary shield or maybe nanoweave on high-damage weapons within short range. This is what the TL already does for the Bishop with regards to the AS, but if it was made passive for some of the NC's 200 damage weapons and had the recoil nerf removed it would give an NC-specific flavour to NC gear without being incredibly powerful or even universally useful, as is the case with the VS' lack or projectile drop and TR's passively extended magazines.

Giving a faction's gear it's own feeling would be good for the game I think, even if the mechanics were small or insignificant.

When a "developer" or a "designer" has more arrogance than ability, you get...the VS.

If you're thinking NC weapons need less recoil, forget it. It's already not fair that the NC's "signature mechanic" is straight up having better damage than anyone else. At least no bullet drop isn't a major issue at the engagement ranges that are typical in this game.

Damage =/= DPS, and DPS is what you need to kill someone. A 499 damage per shot weapon at 60RPM kills enemies slower than a 1 damage per shot weapon at 60.000 RPM.

Try this: calculate the DPS
The calculate the Bloom Per Damage (BPD).
compare to other weapons.
Then do a little math: assuming the same accuracy (say 33%), which weapon will lose the most damage in the same time interval?

To the heat mechanic I can only say the following: I have not played my VS char much, so i don't own one of those weapons, but if it works even remotely like in Mass Effect 1, it's definitely preferrable to a magazine system (unless the player in question regularly overdoes it). Mever understood why they felt the need to switch to magazines for ME2 and then come up with an excuse of heatsink mags...

let's not forget the zergfit wars and the bastions/incessant nukes. Mission accomplished: we're ruining the game for YouTube!


I play all factions, it definitely feels relaxing to use VS weaponry I can practically switch off my brain and not have to worry about ammo, 6 second reloads, absurd recoil and HOLY F*CK, I don't need to burst fire like a maniac to ensure I don't spit out half my magazine into a wall. And if using easy weapons is still too hard, I got the option of putting lazy-aim ammo on a few guns. Playing the other factions I feel like I need to tryhard a bit more to be effective.

It's also especially annoying to deal with the magrider, considering the other 2 mbts were nerfed to sh*t. Although I guess I could just find a buddy and pull a "harasser" to obliterate everything.


I don't mind giving VS cool alien-like stuff. However, it would be nice if we didn't forget the other factions exist. If we're going to go deep into VS faction traits, we could do the same for NC and TR. Why not give a 250 (or even 300) damage Godsaw? A 500 round butcher? A trac-shot that actually performs well in close quarters?

I get it, TR and NC won't get any hovering tanks, nor any heat mechanics, and I'm perfectly cool with that. But give those two their faction traits! 50 more bullets and a measly 19 rpm doesn't sound really TR-like. Even our directive pistol is so dumb. Does trading 3 bullets for a suppressor sound like a TR trait to you? Give us a pistol that fires 4-5 bullets at once! Give us a nice TR-size magazine! Don't even put a suppressor on it, let us hear the dakka!, Hell, give us a mini chaingun pistol that goes BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTT! Give NC some sort of highly damaging pistol. Really, do NC really seem worried about suppressing their shotguns?


Idk overall it definitely feels like they focused a lot on VS and then 'bolted TR/NC weapons in their downtime'. I guess the only positive is that the TR look way nicer than the other factions?

All the mechanics you want, the more different the better. I am for diversity as long as does not confer significant advantage causing the players population to shift en masse toward a better geared faction.

It would be extremely good (I love my Phoenix, it is not the most useful weapon in PS2 but for sure the most fun one!).

So totally agree especially because those mechanics, albeit interesting and valuable, do not provide at end any significant advantage on the battlefield (which would appear in the grand stats): that is the situation of VS.

Heat reload is good but does not make auto-killing machines. unstable ammo is good for newbies just like the Tengu (but not for players with good aim and tendency to hit the head), the Horizon is interesting but not overpowering given the pellets mechanism (otherwise it would be an headshot machine, please give some credit to its designers at the end of the day...).

NC is slow RoF and High DMG: what about traits which put emphasis on this?

Ciao Demigan,

Don't absolutely want to nitpick but please allow me to disagree slightly with what you said. You need a good mix of weapon characteristics to kill consistently and win duels.

Raw DPS is a theoretical number. A weapon with lower DPS but easier-to-handle recoil and low bloom can easily outperform a more powerful weapon that is hard to wield and forces you to burst every 3 shots otherwise you wouldn't hit a Sunderer broadside.

So we agree! My point of doing DPS+BPD is that you get a sense of the power to accuracy ratio. For example a high DPS weapon with a high BPD will be a CQC beast but require a lot more trigger discipline than a weapon with a low BPD. This is far easier to see than the relationship between damage per bullet and bloom per shot, which gives a lot of people the wrong impression (such as that high damage per shot is automatically better for some reason).
That is also why I adviced to calculate how much damage would be lost between a high damage per bullet weapon and a low damage per bullet weapon given the same accuracy rating.

I agree for the most part. Having traits that emphasise a faction's ideology would be awesome. Just one thing: the Tengu, like all shotguns except the auto-shotgun, is a weapon for veteran players. Relying on the RNG and wide spread to get a few hits in is a sure-fire way for any newby to die. These weapons demand more knowledge of the terrain, more accuracy (aiming at the edge will miss more damage than with other weapons) and faster reactions to enemies as well as more twisting and turning required to keep enemies in your crosshair. As an educational weapon to learn those things they are wonderful and I suggest everyone to learn how to use them after they have learned the basics of PS2 combat.

On a technical level, heat as a gameplay mechanic has perfectly viable applications to all factions of the conflict:
-For TR, rotary barrels exist to extend the lifetime of a singular barrel in a rapid fire weapon, which deforms due to high temperatures (heat) as the weapon keeps firing, continuously firing the weapon would accumulate heat that diminished accuracy (beyond what it already does).
-For NC, heat reduces the conductivity of coils used to propel the projectile in a gauss based weapon, diminishing the ballistic properties (muzzle velocity/damage) over extended use.

However, unlike the VS "heat high, no shooty", this is not particularly intuitive, not very fun to play around once you understand it, and functionally redundant given the existing mechanics.

The entire game would have to be redesigned around giving each faction an identity beyond "TR shoots more, NC shoots harder", and at the end of the day it would not resolve the issue raised here: "VS has more fun".

VS will always have more "fun", because their weapons aren't based on launching a physical projectile intended for transmitting kinetic energy onto a target. VS launch energy that does whatever space magic it needs to do at the time.

As well as the recoil, making the NC weapon the most difficult for a novice. Stock LMG can cause disgust not only for itself, but also for the game as a whole. I know that this is an effective weapon in the hands of an experienced player, but giving it to a novice is a terrible start to the game experience.

True.

The Gauss SAW is not a good choice for beginners: slow RoF does not help newbies who miss a lot without even talking about the recoil.

I think NC (maybe it is a lore thing? I discovered PS2 much late) is kind of "Hard Mode" faction.

Bu they have most likely the very best in terms of infantry weapons (LMGs, carbines, assault rifles and SMG). It only takes a bloody amount of time to understand and appreciate it.

A lot of NC's weapons have a very favourable recoil pattern, i.e. vertical recoil or predictable recoil pattern. So it can be true for the SAW but it isn't that hard to get into and other than this minor speed bump. Plus, the one thing you notice when you do not play TR/VS is just how complete the NC infantry weapon arsenal is.

Edit: Buuuuuut if keep going down this road we'll end up with just another back and forth on which faction is best/worst and I guarantee everyone will just leave that kind of discussion feeling like "sure showed them!"

You misunderstand.

I'm not saying the NC needs less recoil, and no the NC doesn't always have more damage anyway. This is also not a mechanic.

No, I'm referring to the tungsten liner being buffed and passively added to select weapons, such as the directive weapons. Do you know what the tungsten liner is? It's a special barrel attachment for the Bishop which increases the maximum damage from 334 to 350 to 10m dropping off to 334 at 20 meters and gives the weapon a massive recoil penalty.

This damage increase does not affect the shots to kill at any range against any standard target with or without headshots. It has no effect on the shots to kill against nanoweave either. What it does is prevent an auxiliary shield from increasing the shots to kill by one, and effectively nerfs the rifle against all other targets and ranges past 10m, were the auxiliary shield will increase the shots to kill once again.

Now imagine if it didn't have that recoil penalty. It would technically be a straight upgrade, even if it never really came into play very often.

In this capacity, it would be akin to the VS' lack of projectile drop on the majority of their weapons. It's a flat upgrade over experiencing gravity but for most weapons it won't have an effect very often.

If it were to be installed on the GODSAW for example, where it did not affect recoil and increased the damage per shot from 200 to 210 until 10m, the weapon would be better for it and would have a unique NC-oriented mechanic even if the mechanic itself wasn't very useful.

In the lore the NC are the rebels with three mantra's:
- there is no experimental weapon that is too dangerous for the user. That is why they have railguns and shields)
- if you look hard enough, anything can be turned into a weapon. The NC were then one's repurposing mining and heavylifter exosuits by bolting armor and weapons to it, creating the First MAX prototypes.
- if you could have mounted a bigger gun on it, you should have.

Unfortunately this quickly devolved into shotguns and high damage per shot with little else. Where is the experimental tech? There's a shield for the Vanguard. The MAX would fall in that category but the other two have their own. Its also weird how the Prowler's design is more NC than the extremely basic Vanguard tank design.

I joined the NC first not because they were rebels, I would have played a religious fanatic or an oppressive military no problem. I joined the NC because they promised gadgets, specialty weapons and experimental designs that could blow you up as easily as your opponent.

And even now it feels easy to get the NC arsenal up to the task. Some plasma cutters and saws from the logging operations repurposed to rip enemies to shreds. Mining drills and explosives as siege equipment. Welding tools to quickly create barricades, lock a door or weld some extra armor on an ally or vehicle. Fuel for those welders and cutters repurposed into flamethrowers. Experimental equipment with questionable outcomes, such as a personal teleportation device that teleports you somewhere close to your desired position, but not quite (walls and obstacles block the range of random positions so you dont fall outside the map). Or an electric whip weapon that will increase the chance it will arc back to the owner the longer he holds the trigger. Interesting and unique things that make the user think about the trade-offs in a similar fashion that you think about how large you let your COF grow before the hit chance falls too much.

The game is about large amounts of players. Having a lot of easy to use weapons in the hands of the average masses is more effective overall. On the other hand no faction's elite should feel restrained in their choices just because the average player can be effective with the basic arsenal. The NC starter weapons should be re-evaluated, the impact of misses on higher damage per shot weapons needs to be looked at again. On the other side the VS and TR should not feel their arsenal isnt complete, and they should make an inventory of weapon types they feel are missing. So far I've seen a lot of people say the NC arsenal feels the most complete but I havent seen anyone list which weapons are supposed to make the TR/VS arsenal complete, which would be valuable information.

I think the most can be gained by adding optional mechanics. The VS unstable ammo is a great example: you dont need to equip it, but you can to modify how the weapon functions. Imagine that wave-charge thing from the Aphelion on small-arms. Maybe allow the TR to equip a spinup on their weapons that lowers the base RPM but increases the max RPM, and they have the option to rev up the weapon to max RPM before you fire but at the cost of visibility on the radar and other smaller negatives like a slightly larger starting COF or a slowed movement while revving up.

Since this thread has come down to comparing levels of fun and how much more of it Vanu has due to the special mechanics of their guns, I have one thing to contribute here.

I hated the idea of joining Vanu at the beginning because it doesn't "feel" like an army. The gun sounds, the visuals, their lore (however limited it may be). You get all that in excess in both TR and NC. You can get your RP on and have fun that way. All Vanu has in terms of fun for me is the special weird weapons we get. Heat, lasher, lancer all of them.

Yes it's not a direct comparison, because I'm comparing game mechanics to ... sounds and visuals. But in the end it all boils down to sources of fun.

#Embarrassing.

IMHO:

TR:
Their equipment is heavily short/medium range oriented and they dominate there: MSW-R, Lynx, Jaguar, Kindred (!!!), TAR, Cycler TRV, [F]Armistice, Repeater, Inquisitor + the best rocket launcher of PS2 (Striker).
However, poor long range options: TMG-50 (meh), T32 Bull (not so bad, needs more ammo and more DMG), Cougar (RoF too slow for the DMG it deals), T-5 AMC (meh), SABR-13 (burst only), Arbalest (more burst only), TORQ-9 (RoF too high to be a good long range firing platform)

VS:
Their panoply is kind of "meh" (not bad, but without that extra DMG you can find in NC or the extra RoF you can find in TR) with some well designed exceptions: Orion (!!!), MAW, Pulsar C, Serpent, HV-45 and the crappier sidearms of PS2. You have limited options at the end, and no good long range LMG.

NC has everything you may need: from bullet hoses to long range monsters.

Simply allowing current mechanics on more weapons would also be good, I think. At least if we can't have new or modified mechanics.

For example, giving some weapons a limited version of sabot rounds where instead of an unlimited infantry penetration it could only pass through one person, but with a much lower self-nerf to be closer to not worthless.

Personally I would also like to see SPRW ammo on more weapons and weapon types, obviously excluding the stupid and stupidly good weapons such as shotguns and sniper rifles. The NC is supposed to have high velocity weapons but often just doesn't. If one could knock ~5-25 rounds off the magazine for a meaningful muzzle velocity boost we'd have an impactful choice which wasn't strictly always a good or bad tactical decision.

Currently the only two weapons with the option to equip SPRW ammo probably shouldn't, though personally I "liked" it on the Gladius. I'd pretty happily take a Vanquisher with only 24 rounds if it meant it had 800m/s bullets, (-6 rounds/-2 full bursts for +200m/s) or an AC-X11 that had a mere 20 rounds per magazine and 600m/s (-4 rounds for +100m/s). Hell, I'd even scoff slightly less at a Charger with only 20 rounds and 650m/s projectile velocity (-5 rounds and excluding the smart feeder for +150m/s).

Friendly remind that the NC's CQC bullethose weapons are almost all inferior or near carbon copies of TR/VS equipment, that aside from the 200/~500 models* many longer range NC weapons also have cross-faction copies, and that the VS' sidearms are very similar to the NC's.

*Obligatory 200/~500s (with the notable exception of the Vanquisher) are often some of the worse choices for realistic long range combat due to hilarious sustained/burst fire inaccuracy. When competing with actual long-range weapons such as battle/scout/sniper rifles they tend to lose badly given similar minimum skill.