[Suggestion] The VS 'Developer' faction thread!

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Trebb, May 7, 2020.

  1. pnkdth


    Yeah, you really had to stretch that one out. Ask any TR player on how special spin-up mechanics are... I believe they were so annoyed with it they got an attachment which removes it + a carbine which is a "pre-spun up." I'd also happily give up charge up mechanics for better TTK (since all weapons where it is relevant has been nerfed to s***). No bullet drop is based on the traits the factions were balanced on initially since that was the reason for worse damage deg and having (generally speaking) the lowest DPM + mediocre DPS.

    You wouldn't have to strain yourself to make a similar list for NC either (cam guided weapon, unique MAX, unique vehicles weapons for both air and ground, alpha damage faction, etc).
  2. Demigan

    I didnt stretch, I was being thorough. And what happens if we remove it? The list remains long.

    You are better than this. If I remember correctly you are well able to come up with a well written answer instead of literally nitpicking one thing and ignoring the rest.

    But you are welcome to make a list of the NC. Be sure to mention how many weapons are actually equipped with those mechanics, as you are conveniently ignoring that was also the point I made: VS has these mechanics available on more weapons.

    And again I have to ask you: what would be wrong with giving NC and TR more of such mechanics? And once these mechanics are equally divided across all 3 factions (even if that is already the case) there is nothing wrong with expanding the amount of mechanics for all 3 factions right? And expanding how many weapons can equip it within each faction.
  3. McToast

    This one's legit, the rest of your points are meh. Mossie vs Scythe is usually balanced, Scythe has the better front profile, Mossie top/bottom. They should just make the Reaver a bit smaller from all sides and I'm good. It's not a huge deal.
  4. LodeTria

    • Up x 1
  5. pnkdth


    I can be, yes, but when it comes to threads like this the outcome is never worth the effort. It comes a point where you simply give up after seeing the same thread being posted over and over again. I don't even care. Indeed, it seems we're acting as if a list (and the length of it) of unique traits and gimmicks mean something. Besides, you're both able and knowledgeable enough to know the ins and outs of the NC.
  6. Demigan

    Threads like this, or any thread, devolve exactly because no one puts in an effort. The list is used as an indicator: one of the factions clearly gets more mechanical additions to their arsenal. A good discussion would now be around how we can use this to the advantage of the game. Expanding the TR and NC traits to an equal number of weapons and mechanical unique traits would be a start. Then continueing by adding an equal number of mechanical traits to an equal amount of weapons would help the game balance itself and provide faction uniqueness.

    Now you can be tired of such discussions, but joining the side that makes you tired isnt the solution. Either ignore the thread or help me (and yourself) get a good discussion going rather than the "did too!" "Did not!" Discussion that we have now. Make an entirely new thread if you have to.
    • Up x 1
  7. pnkdth


    Let me know what you guys start talking about solutions.
  8. Demigan

    I already have been, you can quite literally read it in the post you quoted. But just for you:

    Step one: give current TR and NC mechanics to more of their weapons.
    Step two: add more unique mechanics to NC and TR weapons. An example that mirrors Unstable ammo's easier hit ability: smart ammo that steers itself slightly towards your crosshair and ammo that steers itself slightly towards the last target you damaged. It doesnt have to be exacrly that and more of such mechanics would need to be added.
    Step 3: create more mechanics and add them to all 3 factions, preferably to multiple weapons as options to modify the existing arsenal. How about a faction specific UB launcher that you can pick over the standard UB? Its easy to come up with half a dozen idea's.
    • Up x 2
  9. pnkdth


    This reply was more concrete, cheers.

    I really like the idea with the Smart Ammo (and the endless Alien puns would be glorious!) and since we already have the striker the mechanics should already be there, supported by the engine. Seems like a natural choice for the TR. For the NC, a laser guided grenade launcher or something which can be bent behind walls if you get good enough with it (HA or MAX?).
  10. Campagne

    It isn't about how useful the mechanics are. To be honest most of them are flat out negatives at times where they aren't just there. Only a select few are even truly useful. It's about the character of each faction and their respective equipment.

    Demigan has already asked you to create a list, but honestly given the fact that you clearly won't and have cited several traits and such as "unique" I'll just do it myself. (The NC MAX is not unique, shotguns are not unique, high damage is not unique.)

    NC-specific mechanics:
    • Camera-guided projectiles
    • Disruptor ammo type (Increased static damage against shields & deployables, ability drain, and damage nerf package)
    • Damage-magazine link (Damage bonus for first shots of fresh magazines)
    • Self-regenerating vehicle shield
    NC-specific mechanics (Stretch):
    • Piercing mechanic (Shared with VS)
    • AV alternative firemode (Shared with VS)
    • Firing delay (Shared with NSX)
    • 200/~500 damage model (Stat change, not a mechanic; Pseudo 50x4/500 Tengu)
    • SPRW ammo type (Basically an alternative/worse HV ammo)
    • Smart feeder ammo type (Basically a worse extended magazine occupying the ammo slot)
    • Directional-resistance vehicle shield (Vehicle shield shared with NS, directional-resistance vehicle shield shared with TR)
    • MAX shield (Shared with NSO)
    • Short-ranged damage increase per shot (Stat change more than a mechanic)
    Previous NC-specific mechanics (Stretch):
    • Per-shot reload on vehicle secondary weapons (Removed, shared with "ES"/NS shotguns)
    A pretty extensive and exhaustive list, yet most of it is already existent on other factions or acts more as a stat change than a unique mechanic. I was pretty generous with this list, but let me know if I missed anything.
    A cookie for anyone who can list where all the mechanics and company are found.
    • Up x 1
  11. Naqel

    Half of the items on this list is "Gimmicks", things that do not improve the core functionality in any significant way, but rather are different for the sake of being such.
    In a practical combat scenario, there isn't really anything except the Lasher that truly stands out in a positive way for the VS.

    As far as "faction mechanics" go PS2 doesn't really have a place for those. That ship sailed when whiners like the creator of this thread began complaining about faction differences.
    Now we all get the same 5 shotguns with different skins, and maybe you can put a super niche ammo type on some of the newer guns.

    It should also be noted that the "faction gimmicks" for NC and TR are the stat lines of their weapons (how that ended up neutered by the aforementioned whiners is a separate discussion), and the VS is the faction with exotic alien stuff. It is only natural "energy weapons" will have more interesting properties than "shoots fast" and "shoots hard".

    Addressing those overarching design issues is not something that can be viably done in PS2, it's sequel suggestions at best.
  12. Demigan

    1: I count 3 gimmicks. The spinup, the small-arms damage against vehicles and the implant. Everything else is useful or downright awesome.
    2: even if half of them were gimmicks, what's your point? Why wouldnt the TR/NC be allowed similar gimmicks? Why would you stand up to defend VS gimmicks anyway? If they were gimmicks you wouldnt have cared right?

    You are either not paying any attention at all or trolling. The point of the thread is to point out that faction diversity is falling because the VS is getting the "exclusive" mechanics, and what diversity is introduced all ends up in the hands of the VS. Which if you pay attention means that he wants more variety, not less.

    Also the same 5 shotguns was what the game released with. As example for how the game becomes more homogeneous because of whiners its the worst.

    Also if you have a problem with whiners that prevent the game becoming more unique: here you are complaining about my request for more faction diversity. Hypocrite much?

    The VS also have their own statlines. How did you miss that? Go educate yourself here for example:
    https://planetside.fandom.com/wiki/Light_Machine_Guns

    Look at the commonalities for each weapon and figure out that the VS also have their own weapon stat preferences. These arent the reason the VS has the most uniqueness in their mechanics. Also its a completely insane notion. The VS does not have a lower overall DPS or accuracy, so what would those mechanics be balancing? Those mechanics that you just claimed were mostly gimmicks?

    It can be done and with ease. The only thing that cannot be done is the overarching design issues that some players happen to be equipped with.
  13. pnkdth


    Sometimes I wonder where we'd be now if the devs had stuck to their guns and continued to diversify the game based on each faction's traits. Designers are usually at the best and most creative when you restrict them. However, I also think the F2P model did its fair share in encouraging the ever growing pool of copy/paste weapons across factions.

    In this sense, if TR/NC got a gimmicks of their own (if only for identity) it'll feel better. And feeling better is almost as good as being better when it comes to fun and entertainment.
    • Up x 1
  14. Naqel

    You count wrong.

    Heat based ammo is the BEST example of that. The times when it is more than a trivial novelty happen only when you are quite literally playing the game WRONG: being a lone wolf away from the battlefield.
    In every other scenario you will die long before you'd ran out with a conventional one, and you'll have comparatively lower magazine size as a "counterbalance".

    Gimmicks do not improve the core functionality. It's LITERALLY in their definition. Why would anyone want to waste time on implementing more gimmicks?

    I can still disagree with bad ideas, even if they are motivated by good intentions.
    Your "request" goes about things in the wrong way, at the wrong time, and for the wrong reasons.

    I did not, but you clearly missed that being "middle of the road" is not a redeeming quality. VS guns have stats because they need to, but they don't have a single best-in-class weapon for firing rate, single-shot damage or any other stat.
    Because those are TR and NC traits.

    If it could be, it would have been, and it clearly isn't. You are making a baseless claim.




    If that happened, we'd have a thread that's opposite to this one.

    What we really needed was the superior design of PS1: each faction could get the other's weapons in some capacity, so there being differences between those didn't give any faction an overwhelming advantage. It just took a bit of extra effort to get the cross-faction stuff.
  15. Blam320

    The "faction identity" of the VS is pretty much having a lot of weird, gimmicky mechanics that people don't like on account of them being weird and gimmicky. Pretty much the only universally good ones are Heat Ammo and no bullet drop (on the few weapons that have it/actually benefit from it).

    Honestly, I feel like faction identity as a whole needs an overhaul; each empire needs to have its defining traits streamlined and rebalanced so they're not overly "OP" but otherwise do make the empires stand out from a mechanical standpoint.
  16. Demigan

    I was more thinking in categories. We have common categories that could reasonably be added to every single weapon giving you the option to put it on all of them (HEAT, no drop, piercing, unstable ammo etc) and uncommon categories that function for only a few things like your unique grenade launcher. The smart ammo would be available to a lot of weapons but the grenade launcher wouldn't be. But we need common mechanics for all 3 factions.

    As a start though, I like a kind of smart grenade. I was thinking of a spider-bomb that always walks away from the player, but tries to walk into the direction of the crosshair. If it encounters a sheer wall it'll try to jump it. The player has to detonate it manually so only one spider-bot at a time.

    Or if we expand on the VS arsenal, imagine if we just used the wave-effect in a small-arms weapon. Firing charges the wave effect, releasing the trigger releases it. For small-arms it would be nice if it charged in stages so holding the trigger longer charges a stronger wave effect, making it a mechanically very interesting weapon type as you are using trigger discipline for both your accuracy and an added damage boost.
  17. Trebb

    Good effort putting in a comprehensive list, and defending it civilly. But people will just defend having any advantage they can get, and will ignore it sadly.

    As for my #2 comparing Hornets across all 3 faction ESFs, go pull an NC/TR ESF, try to take down a stationary target sitting still (ie base turret). You will have to compensate, aiming left and right depending where the next missle launches from. VS? Aim dead center, both missles launch pretty much from the middle. Odd behavior for a weapon available across all 3 factions. Why is it easier for VS? If anything, the wide Scythe shape should launch the missles further apart than the other 2, not close. So why is that one programmed different from TR/NC ??
  18. DarkStarAnubis

    Yawn...

    The usual thread in which the usual suspects fight against the universe with walls-of-texts about some VS weapons superiority.

    Any number to show VS infantry players (by the means of their Wunderwaffen) can either kill on average more (KDR) , survive more (TTL) score more (KPM)?

    If VS weapons are so superior surely those will reflect in how VS infantry dominate the field.

    Or maybe not.
  19. Johannes Kaiser

    A lot of it is acutally about the wish for more significant faction identity through unique traits that are forbidden for anyone else to yoink. But I guess you didn't read that far, did you? :)
    • Up x 3
  20. Demigan

    Are you really going to ignore the power of regenerating reload that you can interrupt at any time? The only time the ammo count is important is when you are hosing down an enemy in CQC, at which point a "limited" magazine is more than enough. In other scenario's the trigger discipline causes bullets to regenerate intermittendly increasing the ammo capacity.

    That is ofcourse assuming the ammo is limited in the first place. The eclipse (30 magazine) and betelgues (50 magazine before overheat) have the exact same magazine size as the counterparts they are based on.

    https://planetside.fandom.com/wiki/Eclipse_VE3A
    https://planetside.fandom.com/wiki/Betelgeuse_54-A

    The biggest advantage of HEAT isnt infinite ammo btw, that is just a bonus. The biggest advantage is its reload which happens almost instantly when you stop firing (it takes the refire time based on the RPM before the recharge starts). This means you will rarely be defenseless when reloading and it is during the frontline combat and flanking maneuvers where enemies might round a corner at any time that these kind of weapons shine.

    Ofcourse if you knew how to use HEAT you would have known that...

    Because you arent able to spot that I am talking about the MECHANICS, the ones that BENEFIT a weapon properly. Not about gimmicks and adding more gimmicks.

    Yes you can disagree with bad idea's. You are also displaying a marvelous potential to disagree with good idea's.

    You havent given a single (good) reason why it would be bad to add more mechanics for the TR and NC. You havent even given a reason why I am asking something the wrong way, at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.

    For example: what would be the right way?
    What would be the right time?
    What would be the right reasons? Just the fact that the VS has more of them for no reason at all (they have their own weapon characteristics and their weapons arent worse than the TR or NC) is reason enough to give them too to the NC and TR.

    Lets put it like this: I can disagree with someone who does something for the wrong reasons and wrong intentions. And I am doing exactly that right now.

    "I'll compare 3 items with at least 7 different characteristics on just 2 of them and I am surprised that the third item isnt best in class in one of them"

    Clearly there is something wrong with you. You CAN use more characteristics like DPS, accuracy, bloom per damage point, reloadspeed, damage per magazine, reloadspeed versus total firing time per magazine etc to categorise weapons. And in this case the middle of the road wouldnt even be bad as most weapons fall onto those categories regardless of faction. And boosting those middle of the road stats with mechanics is not necessary or balanced. After all why should a weapon like the Canis, which already has a higher accuracy per damage point, increasing DPS the longer you hold the trigger, the highest Damage per magazine of any SMG and they thought it needed an easier time hitting enemies with unstable ammo? Why? Its neither a middle of the road weapon nor does it need the option for unstable ammo.

    In this thread multiple easy idea's have already been given, some based on already existing mechanics. The devs even showed how easy they could add a bunch of varying mechanics in several of their video's and there were about half a dozen variations of rocklet rifle that had mechanically different secondary attacks. So yes it can, and they didnt for some reason. <--also that right there is just one of the basis for my claims. So no they arent baseless claims.

    But lets look at your claim: "if it could have been they would have. But it isnt". Lets assume that this is true for a moment, this is a big problem: it is difficult to create new mechanics, but most of them were given to one faction. That is favoritism and a waste of faction-uniqueness. It also ignores yet again how the VS has their mechanics on more weapons than the TR and NC. So even if what you said was true it wouldnt change the fact that it is unfairly distributed for the TR and NC.

    That system is inherently flawed. Forcing the players to fill in the holes by hunting particular weapons of the opposition is not a good way to balance it. As an enhancement of an already balanced and fair system? Perfect.

    But hey, keep your bad opinions and baseless idiocies to yourself from now on, or step up your game and actually join a discussion.