Everything is nerfed. Why was the vehicle gameplay ruined?

This part reminds me of Cyrious video where he argues for the exact opposite. He thinks ESF should be forced to specialize more.

You are obviously a pilot because almost exclusively pilots promote this ridiculous idea.

I have tried this over and over again but it simply does not work.

For starters ESF have 75% resistance against small arms. ESF range from the target will usually put the small-arms close to or at its maximum damage degradation range. Small-arms COF isnt made to deal with aircraft ranges despite their size making continuous hits all but impossible (and trigger discipline takes too much time for accuracy), not to mention that recoil and having to lead the target will cause more misses. And on top of all that an ESF needs to just point its nose to the horizon and press the afterburner for a second to be out of effective range of small-arms. The only ESF that fall for this are those that dont pay attention to their health, get hit by something else as well or fly into the scenery when they fly away.

I've organized entire 12 people squads to use their small-arms on ESF and all it did was ask the ESF to shoot us before repairing up and shooting us again. Its ineffective, has too short a range and its so ridiculously bad at doing its job that I've never even seen it happen in game or video of this in progress where they succeeded.

Don't worry, I've sunk countless magazines into ESFs over the years. 95% of them hightailed it when the first smoke started appearing after the time they needed to raze everything within their sight.
The other 5% were either already severely damaged to begin with, had a bout of tunnel-vision or were bananas.

Yea, small arms aren't a counter to ESFs. But if you'd fly you'd know how annoying it is when infantry actually starts shooting at you. Same as in a harasser. You'll most likely not get the kill, but you'll scare him off before he can farm the **** out of you. As an ESF you usually bail for repairs at 50-70% health, depending on the fight. You don't have to actually kill him to prevent him from farming you. It doesn't cost you anything but 3-4 seconds and some awareness.

That people still complain about air after 8 years of constant nerfs is beyond me. Imagine playing this game for years and never putting in the effort to actually learn to fly. Not comprehensible for me.

At 10m range and 100% hits it takes 7 seconds and 60 bullets to kill an ESF with the Gauss Saw. 9 seconds after fire suppression, 10 seconds with fire suppression and composite armor.

Unfortunately most A2G battles will take place at longer than those ranges. Your accuracy isn't 100% but more like 50% or lower for a Gauss SAW assuming pinpoint perfect aim unless you start using trigger discipline which will quickly double or triple your TTK to 20 to 30 seconds if not more. On top of that the ESF will do this thing called "nuke you to oblivion with rocketpods/noseguns" which have higher DPS, more accuracy, miore leniency if they are rocketpods/AI noseguns and less damage degradation.
Should you magically be successful and scare off the ESF... It repairs up and is back to kill you in the second round.

That people still try to pass this off as a viable method after 8 years is beyond me. Imagine playing this game for years and never really trying this out but proclaiming it actually works.

Also "constant nerfs"? Early in the game's life you could actually kill an ESF with a single magazine of a semi-auto shotgun. A hidden buff to ESF made that impossible as suddenly it just pushed them to about 30% health at the time. Since then ESF have gotten buffs: Better fire suppression (almost double the repair rate of other vehicles) and better health upgrades like composite armor becoming a health increase. Since you probably don't even know that you've never ever tried small-arms against aircraft with any true attempt to succeed. Hitting ESF is the sure-fire way to get attention on you and get killed, not to magically get magnetic bullets that suddenly hit ESF without damage degradation or the ESF using any of it's gadgets or abilities which scares it away forever.

Oh and I think (sorry: know for a fact) that every single ESF user who thinks that A2G gameplay is hard when there's G2A or active small-arms around is a skill-less scared idiot who can't even learn the easiest part of the air-game simply because they prefer to fly somewhere without any resistance. I can do A2G in 96+ battles and be effective. Even lolpod runs against vehicles are massively powerful if you pick the right target (It's easy: Pick the one at the frontline that is being attacked. Either a kill for you or your allies). It's virtually no different from tank gameplay in many respects: You go in, try to get an angle, get hit while you hit them back, get in cover to repair up, repeat. The only difference are the controls and greater freedom to attack from an unexpected angle. Yet I see the "top" ESF users still fly from the same direction, picking off lone infantrymen at the edges of a battle because they can't figure what target prioritization is, that their KD is less important and that attacking while under fire is something that infantry and tanks do all the time so why shouldn't the air do the same? Aircraft have it far easier with the chances of escaping with their aircraft and life intact compared to the ground units... As long as they aren't attacked by another aircraft that is, because why worry about a solid balance if you can just give aircraft everything? How about adding a massive giant aircraft-pooping mega-aircraft that is quite literally impossible to kill with ground units and canons that can basically annihilate everything on the ground with little issues? Or adding a "shield" against aircraft that is quite literally useless against them and is more of a bullseye telling aircraft "we though this was supposed to be protected against you so please shoot us"?

Yeah I'm pissed, the elitists of aircraft have gotten it too easy. They got the devs to quite literally turn a newby support gadget (engagement radar) into the perfect newby-hunting tool while the elitists can equip something so they aren't affected. Coyotes turned into their DPS addition rather than a tool to help newbies. They've kept the air-game from evolving by keeping the controlschemes as dead-brained as it is and preventing any additional maneuvers from becoming viable in A2A combat simply because it would mean most of them wouldn't automatically dominate anymore. It's a pathetic crapshow that should have been killed at launch and people like you who spread myths are the problem.

Yeah they even made air so dificult to get into so you can't just pull an ESF (which is the only counter) to do something about it.


It's always amazing to see who we share the game with, and sometimes I wonder if I'm playing the same game as them, or if I'm even living in the same dimension.


I guess maybe he meant you have more chance of shooting down an ESF with your primary than with an AA option?


Lol, either ways, only pilots are currently enjoying the A2G "gameplay".

If you're really serious about it, it takes 24 hours to become decent enough to hold your own as long as you have some backup in the air or on the ground. You just have to accept how aircrafts handle in this game. If you don't do that and want "traditional" flight controls you won't have a good time. If you want to compete with the Aces you need weeks of flighttime, but the high skill ceiling makes it so much more rewarding than groundplay.

Same. People complain about getting ripped by air while I only get the occasional Banshee to the face every 100 deaths or a couple Dalton rounds while in a vehicle. Since I came back from my 5y hiatus I didn't get killed once by a Liberator while playing infantry.
I see people complain about this on the forum and I just can't understand it.

No, I meant this: If you shoot at an ESF that's hovering over your base you'll maybe deal ~10% damage to it. If 4-5 people do that you force him to disengage and repair. Throw some more AA in there - the whole hex can shoot at the aircraft - and it really gets difficult for the pilot to farm. He may get a kill or two each pass, but that's it.
If ground could hardcounter air, there would be no reason to pull air. As it is there is no reason to pull air in an even 48+vs48+ fight, you can't get close enough to the action to make a difference.

I fly ESFs and I gun for libs. I play MBTS, Lightnings and Harassers. I play Infantry, mostly Light Assault and Infiltrator but I have an auraxium medal on all default guns plus some others for each class. Before my hiatus I tried to get into MAXes, but since they completly neutered the NC MAX I don't see the point in that anymore. I try to enjoy all aspects of the game, and as someone who plays all aspects and thus plays against all aspects I think that vehicles need a buff in strenght and a nerf in availability. That's my opinion, but I believe it's more valid than someones who only plays half of the game.

Yes, you can't understand and perhaps you've explained why. You' say you haven't played the game in a while. I wouldn't make bold contradictions to observations from players who have never stopped playing the game.


Also, air was already difficult to get into, and thanks to the default engagement radar, tweaks to coyotes and lock-ons, it's by far one of the hardest playstyles to get into. I would love to see you try to learn how to be competitive with an aircraft in 24h, when players have given up after weeks of trying.

M40 Fury
Then: Damage 300, Indirect Damage 550@2m / 1@4m
Now: Damage 175, Indirect Damage 250@1m / 50@3m

C150 Dalton
Then: Damage 1850, Indirect Damage 700@1m / 1@9m
Now: Damage 1500, Indirect Damage 500@0,5m / 50@3m

L105 Zephyr
Then: Damage 1200, Indirect Damage 750@1.5m / 1@8m
Now: Damage 500, Indirect Damage 250@1m / 50@4m (Velocity from 200 to 250 though)

M30 Mustang AH
Then: Damage 175@50m /125@100m, Indirect Damage 200@0,5m / 1@1m
Now Damage 65, Indirect Damage 100@0,5m / 20@2m (Max. Magsize from 9 to 14 though)

On top of that, Thermals removed against infantry, perhaps the biggest nerf of all. I always though there should be a way to counter Thermals, but straight up removing them was the single biggest nerf for A2G.

The damage against vehicles was partly adjusted by resistance changes so the shots to kill didn't change as much, but the effectiveness these weapons now have against infantry is pretty much cut in half today. I didn't have problems with these weapons while playing infantry back then and I certainly don't have any problems now anymore. Maybe because I haven't played the game for so long I can see the wreckage of the nerfhammer more clearly than people who got accustomed to those changes gradually, but I really can't take people serious who still complain about this stuff being OP. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Good for you that the devs are on your side and not mine...

I didn't learn how to fly ESFs in the early days: When I got into the cockpit, rocket pods were already nerfed and we had a pretty established air-elite on Cobalt. It took me about 24 hours to become good enough to not crash into stuff and pull off the reverse maneuver consistenly even around buildings/hills. I still can't beat the Aces and I don't consider myself one, but I can hold my own against most enemies. Honestly, the people who complain ESFs are too hard to get into simply don't put in the effort. In my case it was watching a couple YT videos, practising a bit in the warpgate (now you have VR) and sticking to some other aircrafts for the first couple days. Coyotes and lock-ons are something you should avoid when learning to fly, they are crutches and hinder your learning experience. You'll get better faster if you stick to nosegun+afterburner first, and nosegun+rocket pods or Banshee/PPA+afterburner when you feel a bit more comfortable and wanna try some A2G.

Anyway, if people didn't learn in 8 years, they won't let their mind be changed by someone they consider an enemy of their cause on the forums. But believe me when I say, I am not a salty pilot or tank driver, I play everything in this game and have no bias towards a certain playstyle.

Dude, me contradicting you is not me considering you an "enemy". If anything you play the game I enjoy, which is a good thing.

And instead of seeing 'wow, after 8 years, this guy and others are ********' try to realize we might have 8 years experience about what we're talking about.


However, I must point out that G2A "gameplay" has always been an issue. The fact that AA was designed simply to "deter" air and does not kill it is a hint there's a certain bias to the playstyle.

Now I have no doubt that if a whole hex is shooting at an inexperienced pilot, he will die. Even some can underestimate AA sometimes and escape the fight with very little health. The problem is that when mastered, the air game has no effective counter, other than maybe AP lightnings or vanguards.


You can also calculate if you wish, the ttk for AA is way greater than for air. It's also way less versatile than the weapons air vehicles equip.


In short, you need about 3 AA options before one ESF goes away for a bit. You only need one LA to take out an MBT, which is more expensive and manned by more people. Air also has the option of simply sitting out of range (which is about 300m for AA), and I'm glad you've never experienced max height libs killing all your deployed sunderers with the dalton, but it's something that exists.


I won't even get stated with bastions.

You dont realize what happened during CAI? They removed and reduced much of the damage resistances in order to make it clearer how much damage each weapon does. Beforehand it wasbt clear how much damage a rocketlauncher for example would do because some did the same damage but their listed damage was way different.

On top of that you seem to be posting damage listed from launch. You know that time? When a Liberator could fly over an armor column and annihilate several tanks due to the damage&AOE it had even with the infantry-oriented Zepher? Or the Fury which was waaaaay OP against both infantry and tanks as it could 2-hit infantry and a Battle Bus became a dominant strategy against all vehicles due to a double fury overpowering a 2/2 MBT?

You are seriously nostalgic for a time when everything was OP as hell and cheese was at its highest. You di realize that new cheese methods have risen as well right? Or that many of the cheese methods still exist? Are you truly so desperate to have an ultra-easymode farming machine?

Again, ground AA cannot hardcounter aircrafts. It would make aircrafts obsolete in anything but 12vs12 battles. You would have to buff aircrafts offensive powers to insane levels in that case, which would make them even more powerful in very small batlles.

No, you need about 5 AA options before ALL ESFs go away for good. Look, we can make a deal. G2A lockons now deal 75% damage to an ESF and ESFs small arms resistance is halfed. In turn, render distance for aircrafts is reduced to 300m.
I have seen long range libs... back in 2013/14. I actually haven't seen a single one now. May have to do with the fact that there are plenty of hiding spaces and even a ******* cloak now. Join me on Cobalt for a couple lib tours. I am not the best lib pilot but I'm above average. Let's see how successful we can be as a team in some 48vs48 battles.

If air is so easy mode... why don't the people in here ******** pick it up and farm away?

Unless you've flown an ESF/Lib/Gal through the legions of skyguards... wtf are you even doing with an opinion?

Morality protects against degeneracy.

Kinda like necroing a thread but that's none of my business...

Well if air controls didnt suck so hard and if we could have pitch\yaw on the mouse or stick for ps4 getting into flying would be more enjoyable. If only slightly. That said. Aa deterence does not deter. They just find where your positioned and then come nuke you. This is why it is so powerful. You can not outright prevent the dmg from being inflicted. When it comes to vehicles vs infantry we may as well just take a glass cannon approach here. We could start by removing esf small arms resistance. And allowing aa flak guns to detonate on flying c4 fairies. Shorttening ttk and cheaponing the resource cost could possibly help here. Major vehicle zergs pretty much go around unnaposed for the most part. And its practically futile to pull anything from a base under enemy bombardment. And with how bad vehicle spawns get camped they rlly dont stand a chance.

its also kinda sad that a cloaking fury flash squad is basically the best anti vehicle force. I mean sure theyll get one shot but if they get into an attack position and land those hits what ever ground vehicle they go up against is doomed. Just dealing with one of em can be dangerous. But if we had multiple roaming around hitting the same targets most vehicles are doomed. That said the cloak prolly isnt even needed. Id rather it be replaced with a shield that transfers bullet dmg done to driver to the flash. Or something like that.

Preach it. I have over a 1000 hours in this game over the years. I've played since the Beta. No I have not researched why this is that blah blah blah. What I can tell you is that vehicles are utterly ruined and it's the worst I've ever seen them. Totally unsatisfying to play. You're more like a mosquito than a legit threat.

Sorry for taking this out of context, but this made me laugh.
Banshee go BRRR.