Last 100 Alerts on Emerald: 57 VS, 28 NC, 15 TR

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by TraatAdmiral, Mar 10, 2020.

  1. That_One_Kane_Guy

    To this day I still see people complaining about 'NC shotguns' and it never fails to put a smile on my face.

    As far as one faction being dominant on a particular server I don't feel it is unwarranted to claim that Faction A's alert wins are due to better coordination/leadership/etc. than Factions B and C. It is entirely possible that for whatever reason the veteran outfits on that faction stuck around while their competition on the other two did not, leaving a gap in capability through coordination if not in individual skill. *When this becomes a trend across multiple servers the logic starts to break down, however.

    *The fisu seems to be bugged in showing prior alerts, so I cannot cross reference the situation on Emerald with the other 4 servers. I can say that on Connery the results seem to be pretty even, although that is far from conclusive evidence.
    • Up x 2
  2. Demigan

    On an individual server basis there is room for one faction to have superior teamwork and coordination, which changes from time to time. but based on all servers across a long time it should even out.
    We do see this for common pool weapons, almost every common pool weapon is virtually identical in their performance both for infantry and vehicle weapons. It indicates that there is no skill difference between players. It would be weird if some factions would get better leadership skills but not have those skills affect their gunplay results. Simultaneously its weird that these people would have ONLY their leadership skills improved (not to mention their listening skills, listening to leadership is a skill people often ignore in these discussions). Its as unlikely as an entire faction having higher stealth skills but having no superior gunplay skills AND stats. It just makes no sense.
    • Up x 3
  3. Smallzz


    You are really, really good at spewing mostly hyperbolic crap disguised as "intelligent thought".

    If anything ES specific weaponry favors TR/NC. The Anchor is by far one of the best LMGs in the game, followed by the MSW-R, followed by the Orion. The Betelgeuse is a worse Orion with a heat mechanic for farming noobs, just like the Butcher is a worse Carv with more ammo for farming noobs. NC doesn't even need the ES auraxium LMG they already have the Anchor, nothing more needs to be said.

    Cycler is widely regarded as one of the best medic weapons, NC is widely considered to have the best lineup of Carbines, every faction's CQC BASR is identical in all but scope and for that the SASR (NC) has the best scope.

    Magriders will never win a straight 1 on 1 fight with either a prowler or a vanguard, they need to "outplay" their ES MBT opponents with better positioning and flanking tactics. Scythes have a lower frontal profile than any ES ESF, but this only matters for pilots who are skilled enough to maintain a frontal facing all throughout an air battle. Otherwise the Banshee and the Airhammer have way faster TTK than the light PPA. TR has the best ES top gun in the Vulcan. Liberators are 100% common pool weapons, same with Galaxies and Valkyries.

    TR has by a large margin the best ES launcher in the Striker, followed by the Lancer (which is only effective against light vehicles and aircraft, it's a meme against MBTs unless en masse but in that case anything is good, even NS annihilators).

    Even the VS descriptions on their LMGs mention "light weight materials allowing greater mobility" but VS hasn't had a .75 ADS on their LMG for a long time. It got removed. NC still has the highest damage per magazine of any empire. TR still has everything the orion is but better in a 325 cert gun, the MSW-R.

    In fact just about the only thing you can point to the VS having a clear edge on is leadership. Like many have stated, Platoons are more organized on VS. Command coordinates better on VS both in and outside of game (you can't use command chat on Emerald TR and Emerald NC is a crapshoot). Why? Because, as has already been stated, VS used to be the meme faction of losers. People who really wanted to stand out amongst their peers switched to VS, those already on VS had to learn how to coordinate to outsmart larger populations with better weaponry.
    • Up x 1
  4. TraatAdmiral

    FISU only bugged out about three days ago. The info that this thread is based on is accurate for the first two weeks of March, but the data is incomplete since then.
  5. Gooyoung


    Hold on, this is all assuming equal level player of pros where no shots are missed. For the ES LMG, why do I see far more betelgeuse compared with godsaw or butcher when all of em are equivalent? People keep saying betel is worse than orion but yet all vets who have that never used orion. Just because no ammo mecchanic, does it even remotely make any sense when in game engi is so plentiful? Yet every single time a vet with betel comes its always half squad solo wipe.

    Also magrider damage is worse than prowler or vanguard yes, but average player doesn't actually care about damage when you can't even hit the magrider on equal terms. Let's see, prowler is best as artilery, where it fires over like 300+ meters. 2 second bullet travel time against magrider that can move nonstop to all direction against a prowler that is basically a stationary target. Not to mention in cqc fighting magrider is basically a battle of frontal armor vs back armor against it. It's far harder to rotate body and aim at the same time compared with circling the slow moving tank unless you're really good with prowler but then average player in magrider can already do the circling maneuver. Fight against vanguards are actually far more fun since we both are exchanging shots equal terms and both tanks are predictable in terms of movement, where positioning is actually an important thing for both close and long range

    Also, ESF a2a battle is basically non argument. Sky is dominated by vets that it doesn't matter to prolly about 90% of playerbase where from the skyguard pov its all the same

    For the launcher, all 3 factions are so different in usability it's not comparable. TR one is only good against aircraft while being a joke to armor. NC is so good for no risk siege. VS is good against long range targets. Basically anything but NC one can be replicated with NS equivalent

    I figure in emerald the problem is more of tryhards joining the objectively ez mode faction from the win number than anything. Guns maybe the reason? But definitely quite a huge portion of population see fighting vanu as a chore instead of a fun
    • Up x 1
  6. Smallzz

    How does "why do I see" even factor in to empirical discussions? Its not a debatable fact, the Orion is superior to the Betel. You see it a lot because like I said, vets who could drop you with one hand eating a hot pocket and an Orion can still drop you with 2 hands and a betelgeuse.

    ESF battle is a "non argument" but all of those vets live in Mosquitos. Mmk.

    It's "hard to rotate my tank for proper positioning in a tank battle" Mmk. So a vet beats a trashcan I'm so surprised.

    NC's launcher is "so so good for siege"...

    No wonder people consider the PS2 forums to be the autistic ball pit.
  7. Campagne

    Opinions, my friend. Just about everything you're saying here are all just opinions, not facts.

    The Betelgeuse for example is literally identical to the Orion with exactly one exception: Attachments. The only difference is the rail attachment between the BG and stock default. Is the heat mechanic better or worse than a laser or grip? That's just up to personal preference.

    Regardless however, you statement,

    is flawed and follows self-serving logic. If the reason why the VS won all the time was because of leadership solely, even in spite of having objectively inferior equipment, why should this only be true for the VS? They'd have to have a dramatically higher efficiency than either the NC or TR in order to not only beat the opponent's leadership, but also their superior weaponry and vehicular equipment to boot. Quite frankly there is nothing to suggest this at all, and it relies on a convoluted explanation with numerous reliances.

    If these forums are to be considered an "autistic ball pit" it would only be because such nonsensical and blatantly foolish ideas are entertained and occasionally even argued for instead of mocked and ignored.

    Suffice it to say, friend, when few to none agree with your unsupported claims you jump up and call the whole establishment "autistic." I'm hoping you might see the irony in that.
    • Up x 4
  8. Smallzz


    I really couldn't care less if my opinions aren't lauded on the official forums. Like I said, autistic ball pit. There's a reason there's 6-7 dev replies on Reddit and these forums are crickets. The only people worth listening to get constantly chased off by the horde of people with a collective AI of a cyclone's stock mag.
  9. Campagne

    You're right that there is a reason, but I'm afraid it's much more mundane than this grandiose notion that only idiots congregate here. No, unfortunately it's just a legal thing, wherein anything said here is official to some degree while Reddit is already a cesspool of circle-jerking and false promises, so it's no big deal if the Devs. say things with some measure of consequence because technically it wasn't official.

    Anyway, the point of a forum isn't to spout popular opinions, it's to discuss them. You obviously imply only the opinions you agree with are the ones worth listening to, which just isn't a good mentality.
    • Up x 3
  10. Smallzz


    Talking with you and demigan is like arguing with a flat earther who spent a year reading a dictionary. Just because you sound smart doesn't change the fact that you're trying to argue that the only reason VS is as successful is an ES weapon differential when I assure you that there is one, just not in VS's favor. The devs have been trying to nerf coordination and good leadership with micro nerfs and they're walking on thin ice. On one hand they can see that VS wins more than the others, on the other hand VS's ES equipment can only be nerfed so much trying to tone down that WR before people start calling ********.

    I'm an NC main for christ sake, I have over 70 days of playtime on my NC main, several TR alts, and two VS alts. Every day I long for my Anchor, even having a Betel, and every day I look at the command chat, our server and faction specific command discord, and how even the randos perform and I am reminded of why I toil with inferior equipment. Like others have said, our command chat is useful not a burden, our command discord is useful and concise not a community college fraternity dick measuring contest, and our randos do things you'd expect of a semi coordinated outfit. Medics res regularly. Ammo is thrown by engies regularly. Heavies throw concussion grenades and tell you in prox chat to wait to rush through the door.

    VS is in many ways like the Marine Corps. They've been doing so much for so long with so little that they can do anything with nothing. Hence the VS meme, "can't nerf teamwork".
    • Up x 1
  11. Demigan

    Let's compare Smallzz actions so far to that of a flat earther!

    Disbelieves anything that doesn't fit his world view: Check.
    Cherrypicks data: Check (although the actual data so far has been rather non-existant).
    Will repeat anything said by others and fits his world view as fact: Check.
    Will use predominantly subjective "I see it therefore it's true" arguments: Check.
    Needs to feel control by forcing their worldview on others and insulting anyone who tries to create a reasonable argument? Check.

    Funny how you fit the bill perfectly.

    Now let's show you an example of how wrong you are: Orion versus Betelgeuse. You've held the bias that the Betelgeuse is inferior to the Orion. The only difference is that the Betelguese has the HEAT mechanic and Orion can pick between laser sight and forwards grip.
    Then we do something that you'll probably not understand: Check statistics to see which is superior.

    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,1894&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2020-03-15

    These are the Q4 Kills Per Unique (KPU). They show the statistics of the top players with this particular weapon. Notice how the Betelgeuse gets about 2 to 2,5 times more kills per unique per day on average? And keep in mind that the amount of users does not influence this number.

    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,1894&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2020-03-15

    These are the Q4 uniques, how many unique players per day for the top players. The Betelgeuse consistently sees more use than the Orion for these players.
    So far you've just parroted the usual arguments for and against the Orion and Betelgeuse, but those are subjective arguments.

    Now I could talk to you about how the lionshare of Autistic people are normal-functioning autists who are almost impossible to find between the rest of the "normal" people and that trying to insult everyone because you disagree with 2 others by calling them Autists is like trying to insult everyone by saying every normal person is low-IQ trailer trash. Additionally I've actually had to educate normal-functioning Autists about their condition and a common attribute of Autists is that they are truthful to a fault, even at their own cost, and have a lot of trouble lying. So even there you screw up.

    And this is common with every single one of your arguments. Subjective "I've seen it" arguments closer to fanaticism than actual facts and arguments.
    • Up x 1
  12. Glenndal

    I'm not sure we've crunched the data in a way that works well for this. Op's point is interesting, but we have little data on why. So we should ask the question "Why is the VS winning more?"
    Could it be faction specific gear? Generally speaking, weapons actually matter quite little in this game except for personal play-style. I highly doubt the 1 or two actually oddball weapons the VS have are making the difference here. But what would we actually need to answer that question? I don't know if its actually possible to collect that data. I would essentially for each weapon the VS have access to want to see the same alert with the same players run without access to that one weapon (including NS weapons and virtual clones), and watch how their performance in the alert changes. One would want to look at stat logs for how much damage was done, how many kills on each weapon and compare it to the same data for the other factions (which aren't having any weapons locked out). Even this wouldn't tell us directly if a weapon were "OP". This is worth looking into, but the first problem to figure out what to do with the data, so I'm not sure we'll find a practical solution discussing specific pieces of gear here.

    Could it be population? Having more people is almost always better than less. In most games where multiple units are deployable, it generally holds true that overwhelming numbers of something mediocre are better than a few specifically good ones. This holds true in Planetside especially because population numbers affect how many locations can be attacked at once effectively. Population data is very easy to check and it sounds like VS are actually down population (a little) in a fair number of cases.

    Could it be location? ...No. Ok, MAYBE, but ...No.

    Could it be tactics? This seems like the most likely answer, but how do we actually determine if that's ACTUALLY the case? This is complicated. Probably ALMOST as complicated as determining weapon strength. But we have some help here. Planetside is designed in such a way that there are clear objectives for taking facilities. If we had access to the data, we could check how long the average player for a faction spends guarding a point, converting a point, or dies doing one of these things, or dealing damage to enemy players guarding a point. This certainly doesn't encompass all the factors, but it tells us a lot about what player mindset in a faction is when on a specific facility. This still wouldn't give us good metrics on higher level strategy like how many facilities are being attacked at a time, or how lattice lines are getting used, but honestly, we could probably come up with some good ways of checking that too. Those things aren't too complicated. "how many times did faction X cut facilities using lattice lines during this alert?" "how many facilities on average were engaged by faction X during this alert at any given time?"

    The bigger problem here for determining if a faction is actually op, or just making better use of tactics is that there's a lot going on in this game (which in my opinion is a LOT of what makes it cooler than other shooter/vehicle options), and its not always possible to tell how important something is (This is a problem). This is like looking at a football game score and going "Hey that team wins a lot", but both the team won and the team that lost being unable to say why aside from "Well the winning team scored more points". We need to be able to have really precise answers for why factions win alerts. Once we get a hold on that, the game can start to explore more interesting things, like real weapon and vehicle asymmetry, facility control bonuses, etc. We're a LONG way off from that, so I'd be happy with just some high-level replay data on alerts showing...I dunno, faction population distribution across facilities on a continent over time during a specific alert? That would at least tell us if "yeah, NC lost because they spent all their players in an hour-long biolab fight."
    • Up x 2
  13. Smallzz

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=therum&show=weapons

    here have a look see at one of the best infantry players to ever play PS2. Doesn't even bother farming for the "oh so superior" Betelgeuse just cracks kids with the Orion. Why would one of the best shooters in PS2's history who uses every micro advantage he can accrue to win fights not use a Betel if it's so much better?

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=x0niqvs&show=weapons
    Here's a glance at one of the top infantry players on Emerald who's still active. If you've ever played on Emerald for a significant period of time I'm sure you've been nailed by him a few times, or even if you haven't you might have seen his youtube videos he makes. Almost 140k kills with the betel and only a little over 4k kills with the Orion, but if you check his accuracy and HSR his Orion stats still dump all over his Betel stats despite him having 140k kills worth of experience with the Betel alone.

    Something's not adding up here with the assertion that the Betel is better and that "attachments don't have a significant impact".
  14. Gooyoung


    Whoa whoa what a super good arguments there

    It's easy to look down on normal player when ur talking from your high horses while complaining oh no this game is leaking player for idk why maybe cos UR 15 KD OF FARMING NOOBS ARE ACTUALLY BAD AND UNFUN FOR THE GAME IDK?

    I can easily bring an empirical data on how vs is far better off based on actual statistics but would you even want to see it?

    I can shove it to your pathetic lines of excuse and I dare you to not run off like a chicken or just say "tHosE DaTa aRe BiaSeD" instead of fighting with an "empirical argument" if you do actually have one. This is a challenge for non empty trashcan btw

    Also how cute you mention my argument is subjective while ur argument of "TR leadership sucks" is objective? Do you english bruh?

    Sorry i am quite disgusted that I was trying to be respectful and have open arguments but got some crap like this shoved instead
  15. Demigan

    So you claim that the Orion is better than the Betel in the regular game, then when the actual proof comes along (obviously not presented by you) and it is shown that the Betel is actually superior you immediately turn around and say "this thing from several years ago says different".
    You are comparing the live servers, with tons of players of variable skill and certifications, to a competitive scene where players only have to find weapons for specific situations and don't have to worry about people of different skill levels with different weapons?

    It's absolutely subjective. Pistols often have faster reload speeds than LMG's, but it's not just the things that are better that we have to look at. We have to look at the complete picture. How can we check how powerful the HEAT mechanic is compared to the ability to equip flash suppressors and laser sights? Well we look at how everyone does with these weapons, from the newbiest newb to the biggest veteran.

    Just because I'm not a dick I've actually filtered the newbs out by using only the veteran players. And lo and behold! There's fewer veterans using the Orion than the Betel on a daily basis. These same veterans score better with the Betel than the Orion. So when you edit this post and say "And no crap stats are going to be better for the Betel than the Orion. The Orion is A) A default that every noob good or bad has access to and that will dilute the stats of the good players using it" I immediately have to correct you and say: I already filtered that out. I even told you I did this. Ofcourse like a true flat-earther you prefer to ignore inconvenient facts.

    What's next? Trying to proclaim how a single player's stats are somehow proof of anything? Oh wait that's exactly what you did. It's like saying the Magscatter is the best pistol in the game because Hetegeuse has gotten the most kills of any side-arm with it. It's not representative.
    The insults are also uncalled for and just your blurps to justify yourself.
  16. AllRoundGoodGuy

    We all know that the Magscatter is the best pistol. It's a pistol, AND A SHOTGUN HOW IS IT NOT GOOD?
    • Up x 1
  17. Smallzz

    It's getting really, really tedious to argue the same things over and over and over again with you. Lanesmash isn't "something from a couple years ago" it still goes on to this day.

    Yes I'm comparing live servers to an environment where literally everyone you run into knows how to shoot, strafe, and play effectively as either a solo infantry unit or a team. In that environment the Orion gets used and the betel does not.

    Like I've said over and over again, vets will use the betel because of the convenience of the ammo mechanic, not because of the superiority of the stats of the betel. It's literally a worse Orion because as you stated and as I stated, you do not get your choice of attachments which have a huge influence on how a gun operates.

    You already came to a conclusion in your pea brained head. VS ES equipment is superior, it's all some conspiracy from the devs to make the VS better than the other two because the devs love VS more or however you work it out in your head. Nevermind the fact that VS equipment has been and still is being nerfed, nevermind the fact that the base in game equipment doesn't even have an accurate description anymore because of those nerfs.

    I could spend until next year picking apart stupid **** that you say (like 'pistols often have faster reloads than LMGs'... uh no **** sherlock... "we have to compare how the noobs and the vets do" uh why are we comparing how the noobs use something? when has balance ever been dictated by the performance of someone who doesn't know how to play a game? Actually stop right there you've made enough "sense") but what's the point? Some little "thumb up" on the autistic ball pit forum? Couldn't care less about upvotes on reddit, couldn't care less about upvotes on this forum.


    Honestly I'm done buddy. Tired of sifting through 4-5 paragraphs of verbal diarrhea to find the same 1-2 points that you make over and over just phrased differently when you don't like the first response you get. I knew from the start you'd 100% be a waste of time and energy but I went with it anyway. I guess I'm the real dumdum here, since i got roped into a conversation with king stupid.
  18. Demigan

    Yes it gets tedious quickly when one person actually brings in facts and the other just keeps repeating the same nonsense. So why do you do it?
    Also the last reference to a lanesmash that I can find is from 2018. And if you want to prove that the Orion is used less than the Betel during lanesmashes could you provide the actual data? Oh wait that's against your "I only repeat nonsense" policy is it?

    Let's say you have a game with a wide variety of players who each have their own amount of time to play, skills carried over from previous games and skills learned in this game.
    Your task is to balance this game to ensure the game's survival for the longest period of time. Do you

    A: Look at the top 5% of players (or a single player like Jack-with-too-much-time-on-his-hands who is considered the top of infantry play).
    B: Look at what 100% of the population achieves, then try to balance it so that the average from the biggest newb to the highest veteran so that the largest portion of players can enjoy it.

    Hint: A has been tried with the air-game and the air-game is devoid of the amount of players that it should have, it's also the least enjoyed thing by the lionshare of the population.

    And that's the problem, "Like I've said over and over again". I don't care about what you say, I care about what you can prove. Can you prove that the vets use the betel because of the convenience of the ammo mechanic?
    Well you can't, because if it's convenience that draws them to the Betel then it would still mean that the few top players who pick the Orion score better. Yet they have a significantly lower score than the Betel. How is that possible if not by the HEAT mechanic being superior than the attachments you could pick?
    Ofcourse such a simple logical puzzle is too much for you to answer, you'll just do the "I'll repeat it over and over again" and hope that for some mysical reason I'll suddenly believe it.

    I came to that conclusion after I used these things called "facts", "data" and "logic" to come to that conclusion. Try it sometime, you might enjoy it.

    But let's turn it around: You have already come to the conclusion that the VS are superior players. Yet there is no proof for that. With any non-ES weapon they are just as good as any of the other factions, and if their leadership truly was superior than that leadership would also help them get superior results with non-ES weapons. Those results that I have to keep reminding you are the same and not superior?

    Hold on, my point about pistols having faster reloads was supposed to be a "no sht sherlock" as it was intended to show how having a single advantage in some area does not mean the weapon itself is immediately superior. The only "stupid sht" there is that you fail to pick up on that simple analogy.

    The reason why I'm including newbs in the data is because it's the smart thing to do. You don't balance solely on the top % of players, you balance on everyone. And everyone includes the newbies in the game. Because guess what? Balance is just as much influenced by the lowest skilled player as the highest skilled player. If one team gets starter weapons that are harder to understand compared to the other, then that team is at a disadvantage. This isn't a lobby-shooter where players are filtered in their skill and the game balanced the population to be equal. This is an MMOFPS where any number of players could arrive of any skill level to do battle with each other. And no matter which configuration of players you end up with it should always be more or less balanced between all of them, and not in favor of experienced players because you "balance" it in their favor (which is the exact opposite of balance btw).

    Don't call me buddy, being associated with the likes of you as "buddy" makes me feel dirty. The verbal diarrhea is all on your end, and the fact that you can't understand the 1 to 2 simplest of points and keep your hands pressed over your ears going "I CAN'T HEAR YOU I DON'T BELIEVE YOU I'LL JUST KEEP SHOUTING LOUDER AND LOUDER IN THE HOPES YOU'LL SUDDENLY GET TOO MUCH BRAIN DAMAGE AND NOT HAVE THE SENSIBILITY TO DISBELIEVE WHAT I SAY" is a very good indicator of the type of person you are.
    • Up x 1
  19. Smallzz

    [COLOR=var(--text-link)]https://youtu.be/5s72P1Lpyqw?list=PLIMCbywrprEInIbs2H7TV8HXlmcZIaCvf
    [/COLOR]
    Really hard to find a recent lanesmash Video. And why would the videos from 2018 not be relevant to this discussion? Nothing has changed between then and now for the Betelgeuse vs Orion debate.

    Your inability to argue your ridiculous points can probably be attributed to the fact that you're an LA main when you aren't in a vehicle and you have fkall experience playing a heavy assault (6 days of collective medic/heavy experience, with nearly 30 days spent as LA and Engi respectively. Not even a single LMG auraxium and your only experience with HA weapons is a few hundred kills with a GD-22S, an inferior anchor with worse attachments). I really have zero idea why you'd ***** about faction specific equipment, NC carbines are the best in the game.

    If other MMOs were balanced like you suggest then we'd have Riot Games balancing league of legends off of Silver League statistics, Starcraft 2 would be balanced around the bottom divisions and not the top, hell I challenge you to find me a competitive online game that centers balance around the newest, least skilled players. I'll wait.
  20. Smallzz