[Suggestion] Faction Identity

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scroffel5, Dec 23, 2019.

  1. Scroffel5

    In light of the VS thread, I had an idea on faction identity. Let me skip the crap and get to the meat of my sandwich. The faction specific traits for TR and NC are just ingrained in the weapon, be it high damage or high RoF. We need to keep that, but we need more.

    I like the suppressive power of the Pillager for the Flash. I was watching a video and that guy was lighting people up until he died. That is what TR needs. TR needs more guns with an attachment or alternative firemode that is a flamethrower, and that will be their special thing.

    VS will keep their lack of bullet drop and infinite ammo heat mechanics.

    NC will get to have armor piercing modes for a lot of their weapons, like the Godsaw. That'll either be an alternative firemode or an attachment as well.

    Along with this idea, each faction will specialize in a specific group of weaponry. NC could be all bout dem shotguns and snipers, while TR could be about LMGs and Battle Rifles. VS can have nice carbines and assault rifles. TR and VS will have especially good Semi Auto snipers, while NC will be Bolties. Then, we will mix and match. Maybe NC will get a really good Carbine, or TR will get a super good shotgun, or VS will get a really good LMG. Things like that will add to faction identity.

    Many of you may think that this is all a bad thing. VS is problem enough, why add more to it? We should balance asymmetrically in a fashion where all changes are malleable, something we can feel, but in a virtual sense. What do you think?
    • Up x 2
  2. LordKrelas

    Shotguns vs Flamethrowers: Flamethrower will win.
    If TR goes for that, which would be interesting, NC needs to not be CQC focused.
    As otherwise, NC's Close-Combat focus, will conflict, with either TR's fancy toys melting them, or rendering TR's toys dead.

    There are a few weapons that benefit from AP rounds.
    NC's experience with them, on the Godsaw, Guts the weapon's damage heavily, where it is basically suicide, past spamming a ton of them.
    For piercing through multiple-targets; NC has shown, where they got it, is barely useful.
    VS has shown both of these in better more practical applications - But it's still rare.

    Shotguns & Sniper-rifles: Dead-zone is massive for the Shotgun, and increasingly risky for the sniper-rifle.
    LMGs & Battle-Rifles: Covers nearly the entire spectrum
    Carbines & Assault-Rifles: Covers nearly all but Long-Range for the Spectrum.

    The end result of those sets \ pairings, is NC so specialized on Opposing ends.
    They'd either be potent, or useless; Which is perfectly showcased by Shotguns in general.
    People use Carbines over them, quite a lot - With them varying into Close-Range, Medium & long-range.
    High RPM weapons, tend to be quite effective up-close as well - This includes Carbines & SMGs.
    TR has many examples of this RPM effectiveness up-close.
    Shotguns, do not really have anything but Close-Range, for practicality, leaving them exposed constantly.
    Sniper Rifles, unless wielded by the Aggressor & fired-perfectly, have an incredible risk in usage, past specialized long-range use, or Very controlled Encounters - IE single-target assassination & Run.

    So, to fix that.
    Perhaps a less extreme touch, for weapon-classes; As presently, NC has the most specialized, which is as double-edged sword as possible -- and fairs piss-poor as general-usage cases.
    While TR & VS, have quite well rounded options in those classes wielded.
    Perhaps variations of the main weapon-classes, but not hedging a Faction around a specific weapon class.

    I do like however, Expanding the actual identities past damage-models, and colors.
    Not including the very different tanks - Those, though do need some reworks.
    As Asymmetry only works, if all three factions can get viable winning results -
    And 1 Faction isn't getting near any viable results.
    And a 2nd faction is getting partial viable results.
    Only one is reliably getting decent results, with their options.
    • Up x 3
  3. DarkStarAnubis

    Asymmetric balance is great as long as you have battlefields variance: you could have sea/air/land warfare and different factions would have better suited weapons (or technologies) to achieve a partial dominance.

    But bases are capped by infantry.

    So it all boils down to clear buildings and hold points and fighting at close distance frantic and confused battles.

    The best weapons for that scenario are high DPS, high RoF, large magazines weapons to be able to hit hard, miss hits without dying and keep firing when it matters.

    Whichever faction has more weapons belonging to that group will hold a distinctive advantage in capping bases and that's all they need to win.

    PS2 is very flat when it comes to weapons: each side has full spectrum of low RoF/high DMG and high RoF/low DMG weapons, shotguns, sniper rifles and rocket launchers.

    There are a few gimmicks here and there (UA, piercing ammo, no bloom, heat mechanics,...) but 95% of the weapons are very, very similar.

    There is a good reason -IMHO- for that: good balance.

    Distinctive weapons traits could alter it.
  4. YellowJacketXV

    I think in light of identity there needs to be adherence to a sort of understood faction guideline.

    TR favors DPS
    NC favors armor
    VS favors mobility

    Listed above may just be my point of view but it makes sense. High RoF generally translates to high dps. NC armor is the strongest, and VS have always had highest aim down sights movespeed. There's probably more to add and take from this.

    The problem is it is not uniform, nor has it ever been uniform. VS MBT is one of the most maneuverable things in the game, but TR tanks are faster in a forward run. Stuff like that.

    I would agree to seeing flamers only on maxes. TR maxes that is. Honestly, each of the new flash weapons would be better on maxes anyway... But I would honestly like to see 'grenade launcher' s-type weapon attachments to match the factions explosive. TR seems to be getting lots of incendiary grenades. I like that. I'd be fine with them having a huge area of coverage but moderate to low damage over time.
    • Up x 1
  5. Demigan

    I've always thought that players should be able to equip a variety of faction-specific items to their weapons and tanks. There should quite literally be a faction-specific slot in every single infantry and tank.

    As for what goes into them, each faction has it's lore that could easily give us a lot of inspiration beyond the stunted faction-specific stuff we have now.

    For example the NC is currently high damage per bullet (at the cost of RPM) and shotguns for the most part. Yet the lore says they are what amounts to a disgruntled labor force who turned rebels and use their old equipment to throw stuff together and who do not fear to put potentially unstable experimental technologies in their arsenal. This is why the NC was the first to develop the MAX out of a support suit for mining equipment by simply welding armor and weapons to it before the TR and VS designed their own to compete.

    The VS are the lionshare of the science division that landed on Auraxis. They have partially re-engineered the technologies of the original owners of Auraxis who disappeared and think it is their birthright to learn and use the full extend of the original Vanu who lived there (who incidentally blew up a planet in the solar system by accident and build the rebirthing grid that allows people on Auraxis to respawn).

    The TR are the military police force that came with the expedition through the wormhole. In the solar system they were oppressive out of a necessity at some point to prevent the world from falling into chaos. But after the threat seemed to have passed the TR remained oppressive much to the malcontent of it's citizens and merchants (who later formed the New Conglomerate to finance the expedition through the wormhole). During the trip to Auraxis a lot of ships were lost and the TR needed to impose martial law as sabotage and murders happened on the multiple space ships that remained. Then they found Auraxis and remained oppressive again to make sure that enough food and infrastructure could be produced to survive.

    Based on these you could easily create a bunch of basic abilities that infantry and tanks could get to choose from. Example:
    • NC could get mining equipment as basic items like modified plasma torches, mining explosives that can be placed on the ground and detonated with small-arms fire or maybe the ability to carry more heavy equipment due to heavylifter frames they repurposed. The Gauss technology could be used as an excuse to allow each bullet to penetrate targets and hit those behind. As far as I've seen this isn't a world-shifting ability. As more advanced equipment the NC could get things like shields, arc-flash tools on their tanks (so if they ram something they can deal damage to the target as long as they touch it) and a slight laser-guidance to their shells.
    • VS could get more nifty gadgets that support their technological supremacy. Concentrating plasma fire in a small area could create a short (say 3 second) plasma fire at that location that could even damage tanks. They could use their antigravity technology on infantry to give all of them a slower fall to allow them to fall from greater heights and have more control during the descent. More advanced equipment could include things like short-ranged teleportation (they have the most control of the rebirthing grid), using grenades or gadgets to sap energy of opponents to boost your own shields and abilities and sharing the energy of their abilities and shields with (player-targeted) nearby allies.
    • TR is the most traditional military group and could focus on more traditional technologies and attack methods. Various Rifle grenades to damage or stun enemies before a breach, explosive-tipped ammo to hit nearby targets (Auraxis has no Geneva conventions), lethal gasses that discourage enemies from taking that route etc.
    • Up x 6
  6. Scroffel5

    I was giving examples. They don't necessarily have to only have good weapons if they are of the classes I mentioned, but they should be their best weapons. If you have better shotguns and snipers, it doesn't mean you won't have good LMGs and Battle Rifles or Carbines and Assault Rifles, but they will have an edge in that department.

    What I was getting at with Flame Throwers is the act of suppression. It won't necessarily beat a shotgun in the sense that the shotgun will always lose, but if you need to cover a doorway, you have a flamethrower to discourage anyone from coming throw and lighting anyone up with burn damage if they do. The shotgun would benefit from direct instant damage, but if you don't do it fast enough and they continue to use a flame thrower on you, you are going to take burn damage, maybe get the kill, and still die.

    And while Anubis is right about how having the same weapons balances the game, I don't really care, because in the end, it isn't much fun to be a carbon copy of the other faction, despite a few differences. I'd much rather have very few carbon-copy weapons and much different weapons at the cost of balance than what we have now. The devs just have to remember how a war works: you make something good, your enemies take it. Say we use Demigan's idea about the mining explosive things. VS is gonna see them and TR is gonna see them, reverse-engineer them, and get a new thing that may not be as good or may be better. (we wouldn't make it better due to NC creating them first and we want them to be better, excusing lore and engineering) They'd get something similiar but not it. Of course, we can't leave them without some explosives so we give them something that explodes but is different.

    The devs also have to remember how things are balanced. You can't have a highly accurate, high damage, high RoF, high ammo weapon because it breaks balance. Just don't do those things. Give tradeoffs, and everything should be fine. The last thing they have to remember is to sometimes listen to the community. If they screw up, fix it.
  7. Campagne

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: Some things, traits, and mechanics are inherently better/worth more than others.

    And idea may seem fun, cool, good, whatever, but if it lacks purpose in "real world" settings it becomes a running joke.

    Asymmetrical balance often hazards uneven results. Say faction A gets weapon X, which is vastly superior to the competitors' but worse than faction B's weapon Y. Things may appear equal, but if weapon X is very niche and weapon Y is very versatile, faction B will simply do better more of the time.
    • Up x 2
  8. Scroffel5

    Yep, very very true. It does depend on usage. Say the arsenal of faction X is good when used together but weapon X stands out as one of the best weapons. Weapon X will be picked more and then the balance shifts. I understand that, but at the end of the day, we should just get to it when we get to it. Instead of fantasizing about everything that could go wrong, why not fantasize about things that could go right? Faction identity would matter. We should tackle the problems before they arise, if we can, and the other issues that come about will be fixed when they come about.
  9. YellowJacketXV

    If there's anything Dead Space taught us it's that mining and industrial equipment can be put to many uses.

    Still, you're forgetting that the NC are also a group of corporatists that are also backed with that funding. It would be cool to retcon the NC to being just rebels with improvised equipment but honestly they developed new forms of weaponized rail technology simply to spite the TR, who had kept the venture capitalism to a low due to the imminent threat of what was once alien invasion.

    Also don't forget that the TR were just trying to regain order in a more civil fashion until the hero Tom Connery was assassinated.
    • Up x 2
  10. Demigan

    As far as I am aware all 3 sides had nothing short of adoration for Tom Connery. It was only his charmisma and history as benevolent ex-president of the full earth Terran Republic that kept everyone in line until some extremist group assasinated him. But it was left in the dark if it were extremist Vanu loyalists, greedy conglomerates or oppressive militaries that actually did the murder (which if I recall was less a murder and more a complete destruction of the ship he and a portion of the leadership were having anti-escalation talks on).

    I think its good that the NC has corporate backing to give them a selection of common ground weappnry, but in their current form they are too much corporate and too little rebels that slap things together with the "if it could be bigger you should have" mantra and try out dangerous experimental technologies with almost as much danger to themselves as their opponent.

    Just imagine a few real full-scale Gauss weapons. A proper one can convert the kinetic energy into an explosion, meaning that you have what amounts to a high-velocity grenade. Or due to its velocity it can pierce just about any armor it encounters (and whenever it doesnt pierce it again converts that energy into an explosion).
    This can be balanced in interesting ways. The weapon might be deadly and accurate but function as a variant of the HA rocketlauncher with a lot of downtime between shots to recharge the capacitors. And/or you could introduce penalties for using the weapon. The recoil of such a weapon would be enough to damage the wielder (action=reaction, a secondary shield the moment of firing absorbs most of the damage) and since it happens clientside the recoil could be allowed to throw the player backwards a fair bit.
  11. PhantomShadows

    I definitely do think the factions still need more to set them apart, they only have a few items for each type of combat (infantry, aircraft, and ground vehicles) that are actually different. Most of the items are basically the same thing but with a different name. That really shouldn't be the case the same gun should do something a little better in one faction than another.

    I wish the mechanics were more unique and applied to more things as well, like not every class and vehicle has a faction specific cert, there's vehicles which are the same for the most part. I think there should even be negative effects certain infantry and vehicle weapons have as well based on their faction, I think it would actually make the game more fun if there were some weird things they did too that had negative or just otherwise strange effects.

    Some items in this game seem too perfect when they shouldn't be, the factions would have strengths and weaknesses, not just oh we do this one thing better than the other factions, but we do everything else exactly the same.
  12. BrbImAFK

    Honestly, imo the biggest problem PS2 faces in terms of faction balance is that they keep trying to make factions "balanced" by reducing the variability. Thing is, that's a losing proposition unless you're prepared to make everything identical.

    E.g. "Oh noes! The TR are winning all the stuffz because their high RoF is way more forgiving than the other factions! We must solve this by giving all the other factions high RoF as well!" Yeah, OK... but what happens then? Then people complain that the NC have an advantage because they have high damage? So now everybody gets high damage. Then they complain that VS are OP because their weapons are supposedly easier to use. So now everybody gets low recoil weapons or whatever. Unless all weapons are identical and there is NO faction identity at all, people will find *some* thing that gives the other side an advantage.

    Hell.... even if you gave the ESF's *identical* stats and weapons, people would start comparing hitbox shapes and sizes and start arguin' about which is better until DBG had to standardise the model of that as well!

    You *cannot* get balance by making things closer and closer together unless you're prepared to make them identical. Why else do you think that most competitive shooters allow all teams to use exactly the same models, weapons etc. and have mirrored map layouts and so on and so forth? Because "fair" only comes with "identical" if you're making direct comparisons.

    The best way to go in order to develop faction identity and balance is to completely throw equality out the window and develop (and then balance) *IN*comparable things. Starcraft is a great example of this. Terran Marines are completely different from Zerglings. They cannot be directly compared in any way. And yet, they're both base units, and (while obviously meta changes over time) Starcraft is generally considered to be pretty well balanced!

    That's my 2p anyways.
    • Up x 1
  13. Jingstealer

    I much preferred the PS1 system. If it were down to me, PS2 would adopt that system, loadouts and everything. PS2 game mechanics are inferior in every way imaginable to PS1.
  14. Pikachu

    Random picture I found.
    [IMG]