[Suggestion] MAX shotgun overnerf has stayed for too long

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Clipped!, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. JibbaJabba

  2. TR5L4Y3R


    "hey ballance on this side of that part was sh t for that time, now it´s sh t on the other side of that part, deal with it"

    .. worst mindset you could have .. weither it was sh t before or it is sh t now somewhere else doesn´t change that it is still sh t
    ... shifting sh t doesn´t make sh t dissapear ... ... tweak that sh t to acceptable levels for all sides ..
    • Up x 2
  3. ridicOne

    • Up x 1
  4. Demigan

    Problem one, almost all of the fights happen outside of CQC. that is why shotguns, available for use on all classes, are barely used compared to other weapons. Also the best performing weapons in the game often combine ease of use with high accuracy.
    So this is one of the most consistent fallacies, unless you can explain why a weapon designed for the one range you proclaim is the most important isnt used that much? Same goes for most CQC oriented weapons like SMG's? They just dont see that much use, why wouldnt they if they are so superior?
    Better question, why do most veterans have barely any stats with shotguns if they are so good? Especially for the farmboys that use only a few high performance weapons for all eternity.

    Fights happen from door to door, cover to cover. They happrn rarely inside pointrooms. The fight for a pointroom is a last-ditch defense rather than the main fight. Also the defenders rarely hold pointrooms in defense since they do not benefit from it in the longterm. They can only win by denying spawn access. So saying "yargh point rooms ideal shotguns" is piratey, untrue due to the size of most pointrooms and not that relevant in the grand scheme of capturing and holding a base.
  5. ridicOne



    Considering since the history of fps gaming there's something called "Choke Points". They have also been around longer than video games have been alive. These mythical things that don't exist in Planetside, might dictate the ranges on where fights occur and I believe the vast majority of kills in this game happen within 40 meters. There is little to no debate or conversation to have if your belief is that the fights don't occur in these "choke points" that are generally not outside of buildings.

    Fights don't happen in pointrooms? I must be playing a totally different game than you....
    • Up x 2
  6. TR5L4Y3R


    and shotguns perform under 20 meters and less especialy for oneshoting ..
    also he didn´t say never .. he said rarely ..
  7. OgreMarkX

    Above, please find an accurate description of TR's entire arsenal.
  8. Pacster3

    Under 20 meters...or as veterans say "the range that matters for c4...which is the most dangerous weapon for MAXes". Ooooops...

    Don't discuss with Demigan. He claimed that NC MAXes underperform for the last 6 years...due to no range. Then a nerf happened cause NC MAXes have been overperforming. That says it all. ;-)
    • Up x 2
  9. Demigan

    Choke points in PS2 work like this:
    Ignoring the fight through the base to get the chokepoint in sight, the enemy moves from cover to cover to reach the chokepoint while they shoot at the chokepoint and try to kill/supress enemies who fire from there. The defenders try to fan out from the chokepoint and push out (assuming they don't have to just sit and wait for a win). This era is dominated by non-CQC weaponry, the CQC weapons that are used are mainly weapons like SMG's and high-ROF carbines because they have some long-range capabilities.
    The enemy reaches the chokepoint, and for a moment CQC weapons are useful. Unfortunately shotguns are rarely brought along for the first section so by the time they can be brought up one team has pushed the other away from the chokepoint, ready to try and push through.
    Now comes the push. You can put 3 people inside a doorway, 1m away you can place 5 people, 10m you can place a dozen people and 20+ you can have many more people fire into the chokepoint without the enemy being able to shoot them unless they enter the chokepoint. That's the point of a chokepoint: You minimize the amount of people that can come through and fire at you at any one point and you maximise the amount of people that can simultaneously fire at the chokepoint to out-DPS the enemy.

    Can we see that shotguns aren't as useful as claimed? Yes we can, since shotguns are available on all classes yet they see very little use. But I'll ask you again: Do you have a good explanation as to why shotguns are supposedly the weapons of awesome you make them out to be yet they see so little use?

    Also about the pointroom fights I have to assume you misunderstand (unsurprisingly). Fights from within the pointroom to the outside/chokepoint are common, but fights inside the pointroom itself are most often short-lived and again not dominated by shotguns but by ranged weapons that can clear the room, rather than short-ranged weapons that die before they ever get to the other end of the room to shoot whoever is there.
    • Up x 1
  10. TR5L4Y3R


    except that tr and vs AI maxes ARE easier to use than nc maxes from midrange were nc has to put up with rnjesus the whole time .. mattocks at the very least need to be slugs, and one of the shotguns should be a fast firing autocanon instead ..
    the ammoammount and reloadtimes on these shotguns are abysmal ..
    • Up x 1
  11. Liewec123

    not just that, the damage drop off is absolutely hilarious, by 20m they are doing 60% less damage lol
    which i'd be fine with since they are shotguns they are supposed to be useless at range but king of CQC.
    only now they do similar cqc damage to TR and VS, but still suck at range.
    • Up x 1
  12. pnkdth


    I would say that shotguns on standard infantry have worse effective range (PA shotguns especially since you more or less have to be within knifing distance). SMGs are, for the most part, worse versions of carbines/ARs. Trading accuracy/range/damage fall-off for ADS movement and good hip-fire. SMGs are there for infiltrators since it was deemed too powerful for them to have access to other weapon classes. That said, some SMGs were so good they were used on the HA (Cyclone in particular).

    NC had about 6 years to speak up on the subject of the NC MAX but every NC MAX thread was a litany of excuses, ranging from everything from RNG to lack of range. Every time I suggested, "hey, have you all tried slugs, they're insanely good", I was treated like a leper in the dark ages. Most commonly the point was made that they were RNG without considering if slugs would have been more accurate they'd be over-powered as hell. Even without slugs there were plenty of videos showing that the NC MAX was not confined to a pitiful range.

    Yes, it has been overnerfed but lets not kid ourselves here it used to be over-powered (and every data point we have proved it). Not that NC players are unique in this regard, I mean there were even some VS players who defended the pre-nerf ZOE, TR defended the pre-pre-revamped/nerfed(?) Striker, and so on.

    I wished they'd made all the NC MAX arms use slug ammo. I mean, they have the mechanics ready to made weapons who act similarly but not as a shotguns (Tengu, Horizon) which could easily be worked into the NC MAX. This would allow them to make more predictable scatter patterns, unique versus of slugs like a slug machine gun or double barrelled arms, etc. This might even given each arm a clear identity and be much easier to balance and, more importantly, more skill-based over RNG.
  13. Demigan

    I still hold on to the stats being inflated. You dont pull a shotgun when you arent in a CQC fight while every fight can be made a mid-range fight if you want it. On top of that even a weapon like the ACX-11 or whatever its called is a definite long-range oriented weapon but still more than capable in CQC. and that's the big difference: you can consider using a long-range automatic weapon in CQC even though you might handicap yourself, but you would never do the opposite with a shotgun. So the only time you see a shotgun is in a fight where they are effective.

    As a reference we can see inflated stats with pistols too. The basic faction-specific weapons are less powerful with less capacity than their primary counterparts yet they score about the same? That is possible because the moment you pull out your pistol your enemy is likely damaged and also almost empty. So the time you have your pistol out is incredibly short and it is likely that you can score a kill or be killed by another pistol.
    Better yet, check Dasanfall for C4. The KPM for example is through the roof as well as the KD. This is because when you pull out your c4 you are about to use it. But if it simply added all the time that you carried it with you or died before you had the right opportunity to pull it out the score would be much different.

    Point is: stats can be inflated due to the circumstances they are used in, and shotguns in general with the NC MAX in particular are used in much more narrow circumstances that will inflate their apparent usefulness.
    • Up x 1
  14. TR5L4Y3R


    i wouldn´t want all arms to be slugbased .. i mean some faction variety (along with advantages and disadvantages) should be there
    and yea either make use of the tengu and/or horizonmechanics and/or remove the (i think) pelletspread on shotguns were the cyrcular sight clearly indicates were ther shots will go similar with the minichaingun so you don´t have that imiganary bullet with the pellets around it so the rng doesn´t set it on the most outer area were then you are likely to miss shots OR they set a second cycle that accounts for the pelletspread and cone of fire cause the current sight only accounts for cone of fire but not the pelletspread ...
    they still could tighten the cone of fire and pelletspread while lowering the headshotmultiplyer (is it actualy 2x or 1.5x ?) if need be ..
    i mean shotguns are there to cover a whole body with projectiles, it should´t be about a slotmachinegame of if and how many shots hit the head ..

    still at the very least shotguns need a tweak on reloadtimes, .... ... and more ammo (like give highcap shotguns 20 shots as default and the low cap heavyhitter 16 with extended mags) .... and maybe a additional damageadjustment for range over CQC ..
  15. pnkdth


    Comparing it to C4 and sidearms is a bit out of place given you can literally measure their use in seconds before switching to something else.

    Thing is I do not think people restricted themselves in the NC MAX and the outright removal of slugs might very well suggest it made the NC MAX both the kings of CQC while having very good performance at overall MAX viable range resulting in a MAX which not only had the best KDR/KPU but also getting significantly more kills per arm. So it might be that there were some inflation going on but having access to a MAX which had excellent general use through slugs and can transform to a battering ram with buckshot, of course it is going to perform really really good.

    Doesn't excuse the double nerf of both reducing range AND removing slugs though. Can you tell I miss my slugs? xD

    My suggestion was geared more towards making the pellets less random or at least based on a platform which can create shotgun-like weapons. I'm open to other suggestions as the chief of my concerns is the range currently (and I miss mah slugs!).
  16. OneShadowWarrior

    They got carried away with the nerf. My Hacksaws are DOA.
    • Up x 1
  17. Clipped!