Why are the NC so bad?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Hotbread, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. iller

    That's not accurate at all, every organized Armor focusing Outfit I see on Connery makes SURE that their Vanguards fill up 2/2 before another is allowed to be pulled unless the only Top-Gun that player has unlocked is Ranger. Even Basilisks get gunners assigned b/c they out-DPS the AP cannon against PlayerBases.

    The whole reason you see so many Pubber NC 1/2'ing it is b/c they went into the NC "character" drinking the mother f****ing "RUGGED INDIVIDUALISM" kool-aid so hard that they can't be arsed to socialize long enough to request a gunner even though it's literally an instant voice-command and maybe even a Q-spot option too... This is a cultural issue in our broader society due to decades of literal Propaganda aimed at the lower classes of America. It's like fish swimming in water unable to even imagine any other molecular compound surrounding them all hours of the day.

    If you polled the VS, I guarantee you would find it has more players who are at least College grads and/or succeeded more in life b/c they had superior "Social Networks and Connections" leading directly to more upwards mobility and a naturally higher aptitude at adapting to cooperative Scenarios


    This is the same exact Argument I just had with Adam about the Reaver and you (or him) trying to imply that "Skill" (and playable FrameRates) makes it super A+ good again and is easy enough for every person to achieve, they just have to WANT IT. It's identical to the whole Rugged Individualism myth I ALSO just highlighted.
  2. iller

    PS: and it's not even fair to blame the NC solely for losing almost every Cont Lock when the VS & TR are engaging in Win-Trading

    [IMG]
  3. Apyhs

    I started with NC. Beeing facestomped all the time is no fun at all.

    Yesterdays alert was the last nail in the coffin. TR and VS pushed , once again , all thier forced against NC while having no combats going at the TR/VS borders.

    Ppl want to make this a two faction only universe. Im okay with that. Switched to VS.

    Give a **** on NC
  4. Badman76

    When this happens usually the newbies leave, the regular guys faction swap and others groups of people just have fun doing other stuff like air hunting in valkyries or squads armor hunting in wraith flashs. When there's typically a population of 30 NC on ceres and say 10 are doing random stuff, it's hard to take the bases back. Especially when all the Tr and Vs are fighting for the bases surrounding our warp gate and nowhere else
  5. TRspy007



    Dude every faction does this. One time its TR VS double teaming NC, the next its NC VS double teaming TR, and it all goes around in a circle. Comes down to the lattice system, the very meta of the game encourages double teaming. Fixing the capture system might fix the problem.
    • Up x 1
  6. Commandoo

    On ceres ps4 it's always a face stomp with NC having 10% of the map at all times and everyone else having 40%. A lot of newbies seem to quit NC and move to Vs. Those who have decided to stay as NC need a pat on the back. We keep the fraction alive and go to war with other fractions like it's life or death. Harmless fun a the end of the day but keeps the fraction ticking over instead of bored newbs moving fractions or quitting.
  7. iller

    No sorry, you're full of **** on that one
    https://www.ps2alerts.com/

    Everyone pushes Blueberries 50% more of the time because they have WAY more newbs not even in any outfits, weakest infantry MAX, and the lowest ratio of actual Cohesion & leadership. IOW: It's practically free kills and tons of squads I've played in for both TR and VS mention often what a Stat pad it is to fight them (they just won't be honest about it here in public)
    • Up x 1
  8. Demigan

    Let's do a thought experiment:

    We put 100 NC players against 100 TR or VS players. We give them a random mixture of classes all with NS or carbon-copy weapons. And the side they fight will get the exact same mixture of classes and weapons.

    Now since the TR/VS have superior cohesion and leadership they would more often have players provide ammo. More often Medics would revive them at proper moments and offer heals. More often would they protect each other when one is recharging shields. More often would they have overlapping fields of fire or concentrate their fire. In other words they would kill more and die less than the NC, and the NC would have worse performance stats than the TR/VS.

    Yet the NC does not have worse stats than the TR/VS with NS and carbon copy weapons. Not with NS vehicle weapons nor with NS Carbines, LMG's, AR's and other infantry weapons. There are only two ways this is possible:
    1. The NC has a higher skill using the weapons, offsetting the leadership and cohesion of the TR/VS.
    2. The TR/VS don't have better leadership and cohesion and everyone is equally skilled.
    Occams razor: It's extremely unlikely that the NC are on average superiorily skilled in using the same weapons as the TR/VS and even less likely that they are just skilled enough to offset the difference of leadership and cohesion. So we have to assume point 2. The consequence of point 2 is that the TR and VS have to win not by skill but by having superior equipment to get the job done. In other words their faction specific equipment is better suited to capture bases and continents by extention. Therefore we need to rebalance the NC to make sure they can win just as much as the other two factions.
    Unless ofcourse you have a better explanation as to why the NC scores almost the exact same (often even slightly better) than the TR/VS with NS and non-starter carbon-copy weapons despite the "superior cohesion and leadership" of the other two?
    • Up x 2
  9. TRspy007


    1) Your link doesn't work.
    2) So you agree with me that NC are full of idiots/people that can't play.
    3) They had the strongest MAX just a few months ago...
    4) So 50% more of the time NC get pushed....on all servers...yeah I call bs on that, rightfully so since I play on all servers except Soltech, and all factions since beta, overall each faction get bodied equally. NC might get attacked more, but definitely not over 10% compared to other factions.
  10. typnct

    this bias made me throw up
  11. LordKrelas

    90% of this, is me enjoying describing a mess.
    You can basically read the "Who is more scary", and get the gist of why up-front.

    Who's more scary;

    • VS New-Player with an Orion
    • TR New-Player with a Carv
    • NC New-Player with an Gauss-Saw.

    Where are objectives, that these new players are funneled into:
    • Close-quarters Point-Rooms.

    What is the focus of these Heavy Assault weapons?
    • Close-Quarters
    • Close-Quarters
    • Long-Range Engagement

    So the newest NC recruits, for Heavy-Assault class, IE meat-shields, point-pushers..
    Are Long-Range combatants, that need to feather their Full-auto weapons, and score head-shots in triplicate for TTK advantage.
    And are needed in bulk, to enter close-quarters engagement, with said Gauss-Saw; Which in such quarters, is typically deadly if the user can aim quite well & is practiced heavily.

    For having shotguns like mad, the Common Infantryman used in Bulk, is equipped with the least effective new-player load-out for taking point-rooms.
    Which also means, for quite a bit, every new NC heavy is packing a Long-range weapon they can barely use at any range.
    But new NC Snipers, are packing bolt-actions, assuming they can actually land the shot - which only pays out if they hit.
    TR & VS can hit more, but get less reward for it, needing multiples, but their front-line is full of C&Q not Long-range heavies.


    Then lets look at MAXes.
    For having till now, the heaviest C&Q MAX with the highest alpha damage, perfect for storming a building..
    NC hasn't a record of dominating cap-rooms - which given it was Built for it, is likely saying a lot.
    Or that the number of means to dispatch a close-range max, was quite numerous.
    And due to this specialization, are essentially only practical indoors, leaving NC past AV versions, missing out on Heavier forces in exterior environments; a much larger area.

    Now for Armor:
    Vanguard, heavy-armor, longest health-pool, and a 6-second Resistance shield to further that raw health pool mileage.
    A monster in dueling, due to the sheer durability of the tank; At the cost of longest repair times & recharge time for the ability.
    The general open world, and nature of continuous combat against numerous enemy vehicles & infantry, doesn't exactly favor Dueling in general; and a long repair time means, the downtime between sounds quite problematic.

    Now how about in practice;
    Shield lasts 6 seconds, and any damage taken will have to be repaired for longer, with about a minute cooldown on shielding.
    Combat loves to use cover; This typically means an active ability is easily waited out.
    You could charge forward, but now we consider the directional differences of said shield:
    and how it doesn't work on the rear.
    If you leave cover, you expose yourself to more opponents, and the deeper you go, the higher the risk of a flanking shot, in addition to reduced resistance to enemy shells due to the side armor being hit.

    Now tanks, all take increased damage from flanking shots.
    Said Shield doesn't affect the rear: So this shield not only has no effect, but the tank takes extra damage on top.
    So charging in; Not a reliable tactic, past Dueling a single opponent.


    Since NC's tank, is quite literally geared for Dueling single opponents, with a long-downtime.
    Attrition battles are not their thing in the slightest, nor is macro-warfare.
    Which is a problem, given that in a nutshell, is long-term combat: attrition.
    Any damage taken, has a longer delay being resolved, granting the enemy more time to take advantage of it.
    And this multiplies on the macro-scale:
    Since the shield is for enduring longer, the existence of cover provides similar benefit to the enemy when not dueling
    , and provides the means to block fire till the ability expires, or the Tank charges forward (Rarely wise)
    Unless done en-mass, which is a coordinated effort, that can backfire like no tomorrow, IE losing half of the division.
    Against VS, this will be facing a lot of specialist AV weapons:
    -- VS having Dodging tanks, that reduces infantry AV support for NC against said Armor, as an additional note.
    Against TR, this is facing high DPS weapons, and long-range artillery style MBTs.


    Okay, lets look at Aircraft;
    All but 1 is identical, so ESF: The NC Reaver

    The damnable thing is designed for, what seems like first-strike attacks, using a high-alpha barrage.
    With a brutally large-surface area to be shot, and if I recall Adam's statements: Faster boost speeds.
    Perfect for quickly striking, absolute crap for long battles, or avoiding AA fire.
    (Not to mention, the volume of specialized AA, that NC does not have, but TR does, makes that massive size more hilarious.)
    So , not the best at dedicated ground-support, but instead , harassment of enemy forces before they can react.


    Lets' talk dedicated Specialist Weapons;


    NC holds as their ES Sniper rifle, the Railjack;
    • Longest Effective Range
    • Lengthy Firing-Delay
    • Highest Damage-at-Range
    • Highest Velocity
    Of weapons with firing Delays: NC held the only one, till the Yumi.
    And on the PTS, NC now holds 2 of 3, of the only Firing-Delay equipped weapons.
    Which take up actual capabilities for said weapons, given you must keep on target for the entire delay after finding your angle on target - Which as you can guess, also makes follow-up shots even more fun - let alone long-range ones.

    NC holds the Phoenix as their Specialist Launcher for heavy Assault;
    • Short-range 200-250 meter Camera-Guided Anti-infantry missile
    • Able to be shot down by a pistol
    • Poor turn-rate for the missile
    • Low damage out-put per missile, resulting in lowest DPS, that is out-repaired by repair-grenades.
    • Complete Stun-lock of the User, with no ability to even crouch; Immobile Sniper-bait.

    This is competing with the Lancer (which needs love), an AV Charge-based laser, and the TR Striker, an Proximity-Lock AA weapon.
    If they aren't in a spawn-room, you can basically locate them within a few seconds, due to the short range.
    Did I mention the sheer volume of these things? They are not a subtle thing to fire.
    Damn near can find them by the blue sparky flame, to the shooter, if the loud sound didn't do it.
    -- They also need guards, as are completely defenseless, Making it even less effective.

    NC also holds for their heavy-weapon; The Jackhammer Shotgun
    • Triple-Burst Shotgun.
    • Pretty much shared with the Mirrored Full-auto-shotgun, but with triple-burst shot.
    • Short-range
    • Reliance on Full pellet spray hitting single target - without slugs
    • Ammo Hungry

    While not an "assist gun", it is a shotgun near identical to the 3 entire types available to all three sides.
    It also shares purpose with the NC MAX AI on top, leaving NC incredibly close-range RNGesus focused.
    Their special ES pistol, is also a shotgun, letting NC pack a primary shotgun, secondary shotgun, and an Rocketlauncher.
    And since the new perks; A Heavy-weapon shotgun, Primary-Shotgun, and a Rocket-launcher.
    (A TR will likely get the assist gun reference, but VS might argue it's the Lasher too.)


    How about NC Special Traits?

    • Directive LMG: Godsaw Armor-Piercing Rounds; loss of 50% AI damage, to deal damage to heavy armor:
    You will deplete a magazine before it notices you spent a minute firing: and deal less than a TR bullet against people.
    * Shortly (like a month or two), gained by VS non-directive Pistol Spiker, for charge-mode with no negative downside.


    • Bishop Battlerifle: Piercing-Rounds, Bullet may punch through multiple infantry
    This is typically not a common situation, and actually had a cost to the weapon to use it.
    More likely than not, You will fire into an ally behind the enemy.
    * Gained by VS, recently for their Vehicle AI weaponry, including ability to pierce through entire vehicles.

    • Carbine Charger: First 5 Rounds have enhanced Damage
    A magazine held 20 rounds, you have 5 of those with the enhanced damage, and always needed 6 to kill.
    This weapon also had the longest reload of all three new carbines, as if it wasn't focused around constantly reloading.
    Their attachments include one that adds an additional 5 rounds of subpar damage, but increases reload time:
    Which means you are longer without the entire point of the weapon - Who designed this?


    How about the latest in PTS & vehicle weapons?
    MBTs:
    *Nothing Ability or stat wise for NC*

    • Paladin Weapon: Firing-delay of 3 seconds, subpar-damage, single-shot.
    Demigan goes into detail, heavy detail... NC has been shafted hard on new ES weaponry.



    Flashes:

    Weapons:
    An Arcing Short-range Mortar, with low damage, and an arming-distance.
    - Also released at the same time: A micro-saron that in 2 bursts kills an MBT.

    Flash Changes:
    Cloaking Mauled.
    (might have to do, with a cloaked flash being able to half-health MBTs in the first salvo.)
    *Which they can still do, just every flash suffers now, if they try to use cloaking.
    Heaven forbid, the weapon that did it, is affected instead of the entire vehicle.



    In short:
    New infantry are inverted to what they need to do, for equipment. (Pack LR equipment, for newbies)
    MAXes are close-range indoor fighters-only, or entirely AV units.
    Tanks are specialized in Dueling & long rests, when the environment is group-warfare & constant attrition.
    Aircraft is first-strike & re-group specialized.
    ES Flashes are hampered short-range AI.
    Snipers are all-or-nothing.
    Specialists are close-range support-weapons - both Launcher & Heavy-weapon, target infantry as well. (so infantry focused)
    Latest ES Qualities, are rare, and typically Impractical -- if not straight impaired by the weapon they are attached to.




    Why are the NC bad?
    Their equipment is not aware of the environment, nor each other.
    Their new recruits are geared for the wrong environment, their specialists are all close-range AI
    Their Armor are duelers, where battles are rarely duels: Let alone their AI options are lacking, but their AV is worse.
    Their Aircraft are better at surprise-attacks than suppressing the enemy.
    And all their modern bonuses are either negatives, or near impossible to use effectively.

    So, their vehicles aren't aware of their infantry being near aimed at infantry-exclusively, which dampens the combined-capabilities: Not many AV tricks, to assist their tanks against multiple armor units -- IE nothing to help counter Dueling focus.
    Their aircraft isn't any better at filling in, or assisting their tanks being vulnerable for long-periods either.
    Their MAXes are indoor-support only for AI, which is where nearly every specialist is ALREADY set-up for.
    Their AV MAXes, are their best AV on that scale to support their tanks; And cost equally as much.

    Not a single thing supports each other, past the new grunts being long-range supported by a metric-ton of close-range specialist weapons.
    Of which, the new grunts are ineffective at the ranges their guns are designed for, which makes the gap the specialists have to close, ever wider.

    TR for example, has their Tanks, Aircraft & Infantry mesh.
    The Infantry are CQC grunts, with anti-air & anti-infantry specialists.
    Their aircraft are effective suppression units, with great AI capabilities.
    Their vehicles typically have aggressive AV, that can double as AI.
    AI MAXes, have suppressive fire, and can even bring crowd-control AOE grenade launchers.
    They reinforce any niche in the TR army; In the field, inside buildings, their armor groups, or their infantry advances.
    The MBT is a power-house of artillery-fire as well; With decent AI or AV capabilities.
    -- Decent & rapid AA Response, and dynamic firepower for well-rounded assaults.

    VS as another example, mesh well.
    Their infantry are also CQC grunts, their specialists are AV & anti-infantry splash.
    Their aircraft are capable suppression units but specialize into dogfighting.
    Their vehicles have longer-range precise AV, and large AOE AI capabilities: Separately.
    Their AI MAXes, bring in quick-response AI directed-fire (some of which now are hard to miss with).
    Their AV MAXes, include near-hitscan Charge-based Laser cannons allowing precise hits.
    Those mentioned specialists? The AI-splash, can hold positions with AOE fire, or be used for invalidating enemy cover.
    While their directive-units, can operate near indefinitely at full-power with infinite-ammo.
    Their MBT, is agile, and brutally effective against infantry; And capable of strafing around Infantry-level ordnance.
    -- Efficient Anti-vehicle, mixed with en-massed-infantry counter-measures, allow quick & sustained assaults.

    NC, in the same fashion, or rather attempt
    Their infantry are LR grunts, with CQC specialists focused on infantry.
    Their aircraft are first-strike units.
    Their vehicles are duelists, with CQC weaponry focuses, often AI.
    Their AI MAXes are CQC specialists.
    Their AV MAXes are rocket to laser-guided AV support units.
    Their mentioned CQC Specialists are additional shotguns & Close-range anti-infantry guided rockets.
    Their dedicated Focus of CQC AI, gives them lots of means to shotgun the opponent, for focused CQC assaults.

    The issue is, half of this is CQC, focused against infantry, nothing supports the rest. No other gaps are filled.
    And it's all short-ranged, while the above mentions medium & long-range AA & AV.
    NC is mostly AI, and close-quarters, which even without the Gauss-Saw Recruits, leaves them a bit doomed, in helping their Armor.
    As it's against lots of AV, and lots of Splash; Which NC doesn't actually match.
    And CQC doesn't work well against vehicles either; Nor does a ton of CQC AI.
    The numerous VS & TR AI weapons, are capable at further ranges, or have splash - NC's are reliant on pellets.
    Which lets the enemy get closer, which makes them an easier target for infantry-grade AV - let alone at distances.
    It's a domino effect; NC's equipment is not designed to mesh with itself.
    • Up x 2
  12. Demigan

    Care to explain this one? You have to provide a logical reason why the NC scores almost the exact same with all NS and non-starter carbon copy weapons as the VS and TR. Otherwise all you do is say "I dont agree with it and thats reason why I'm right".
  13. pnkdth


    While I think he's painting NC is on overtly flattering way his conclusion hits close to the mark of what's wrong. Note that in this post he doesn't mention overpowered or such words to describe VS/TR merely they have better tools for capturing points, alert wins, cont captures, etc.

    Simply looking at the history of PS2 we see NC are falling behind in alert wins across the board (some servers being worse than others). Much of the NC equipment is really really good but also more specialised. This can be a serious advantage if you have a very high level of organisation but such gameplay is rarely seen outside of Server Smash and other competitive events. On Live things are more fluid and random and paradoxically being specialised is not as desirable as being adaptable. While some think it is ridiculous to think of PS2 as competitive it was quite clear the original creative vision of PS2 was to be a competitive game, complete with MLG collaboration and thus the game was balanced accordingly.

    Many suggestions for NC over the years have been weapons such as heavy machine guns for the MAX, less shotguns everywhere and weapons which complement, for example, their MBT such as rail guns and so on. The Vanguard has the highest velocity + the biggest punch yet gets a shotgun and shatter shot as its top gun. It is no small wonder the Enforcer + Halberd are the more popular choices. On the other hand, scatter shot weapons works really well on the harasser.

    Where I diverge from Point 2 is where and his initial claim there are only two possibilities is we also must consider that VS/TR tend to have more consistent leadership (not necessarily better). Coming from a Millerite perspective I've yet to see NC produce such a massive outfit as DIG, much less with the same dedication. Despite people making fun of them and even hating them we could even see their impact on Server Smash, being responsible for many key captures. Rather than countering what DIG was doing most players were content to engage in the /yell banter meta calling them "the cancer of Miller", "zergfit", or the standard line "WHy aRE yOu rUINing a GooD FiGHt!!!!oeneen!!!!111!"

    So in my mind it is possible that NC have lacked consistent leadership AND they need tools to better deal with the fluidity of battles on the Live servers because both of these aspects affects the other. Just like how I think it is possible VS/TR have had more consistent leadership AND have tools which better suits the fluidity of battles on the Live servers.
  14. TR5L4Y3R

    correction charger with a later patch has more charged rounds ( think 7?)
  15. iller

    Let's stop right here....

    ..the "Average" NC player... doesn't GET the NS weapons. They don't even know that they *should* be getting them and frankly too many of them can't afford to because they don't stick around long enough to. NC has the "Turn Over" rates of non-corrupt security guards in Oakland
  16. Twin Suns

    Bad talking NewCo knowing that 95% of this flip flopping community has characters on all three factions. Hilarious
  17. Demigan

    Ooh so NC doesnt get NS weapons in the first place? Care to show us where you got that from? Or is this another one of those mystical knowledges only a few know and has no source? As far as I'm aware you cant find that info on Dasanfall and Voidwell seems pretty devoid of the option to separate into fsction numbers for NS weapons.
    Also how weird is it that NS weapons arent taken by the average NC player, yet the non-average players on the NC score almost perfectly identical to the TR and VS? Makes no sense.
  18. iller

    That they Do! Hence why they're even still *playing* this cursed faction as opposed to joining all the other plebs in Fortnite or Overwatch or COD. And Answer me this? ... If Retention & turnover ISN'T the biggest problem currently, then WHY is all of Wrel's attention so heavily focused still on that new player experience? Did we NOT just have yet another patch trying for the 4th or 5th time to refine a dead-end feature instead of considering feedback like yours on the real Balance shortfalls?

    You criticize M E for not having those Metrics at my beck and call yet HE DOES.

    I think NO BODY really gets it. The game's Real problem with player retention, esp for the NC, is that the Round Trip latency can often be 60% of the Time to Kill when being Headshot by "the most Accurate Faction"... that describes the ENTIRETY of the NC's infantry shortcomings in Point Holds to me. It's the only real difference I can think of between this shooter and any of the actually popular ones (that doesn't have Aim assist for console plebs)
  19. Demigan

    They score? The above-average player of the NC somehow magically scores almost the exact same as all the VS and all the TR players from best to worst who are comprised not just out of the above average players but also the average players? On almost every single NS and carbon-copy weapon? You realise that it's easier to win the lottery twice in a row than that happening right? I'm not kidding with that, it would statistically be easier to win the lottery twice in a row.

    What the hell is this supposed to mean? According to you because they are above average and score the same with NS and carbon-copy weapons as the TR and VS with below average players included they would instantly join Fortnite, Overwatch or COD? What kind of reasoning is that and where does it come from?

    And this proves that the average NC player doesn't buy NS weapons how? You are just randomly stating stuff that make no sense!

    Ok! So show me where he does have the numbers for... Turnover? Or New Player experience? Or the numbers that I asked for: The freaking statistics that prove the average NC does not get NS weapons while the average TR/VS does.

    If your post thus far is anything to go by I think that the problem isn't exactly with other people here. Also just because you don't get it doesn't mean other people don't get it.

    The real problem is learning curve, focus on the wrong elements (KD for example), too much repetition because we have a single capture mechanic and nothing more, unclear objectives for new players, no natural way for new players to get from "where do I want to fight" to the actual fight and a lack of knowledge of base design for the newbies. They don't know which door is going to be camped and which one isn't for example until they've accidentally walked through the wrong door a few times. Then they get into the next base... Before you get the awareness to be able to move through a base you've never been in without making a mistake you aren't a newby anymore.