[Suggestion] Laying Siege

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scroffel5, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. Pikachu

    Nothing wrong with multi role ground vehicles. Ask best korea. :D

    A tank with double missile launcher and double machine gun.
    [IMG]
  2. Scroffel5

    If we add more realism to the game, it would balance things out. I don't mean dying in one shot by every gun, because that doesn't make for a fun game. I don't mean getting 1 magged out of the sky by any weapon, because that doesn't make for a fun game. I don't mean getting a bullet in your engine and you explode, because that doesn't make for a fun game. What I do mean is that things have to make sense. In everything, things have to make sense. Thats why you can sit through a movie you liked when you were a kid, then rewatch it when you grow up and question the movies logic gaps and wonder why they didn't do A, B, or C. You don't have to, and you can enjoy it anyways, but when there are no questions asked as to why, it adds to your enjoyment of whatever you do. It is the same with video games. We can enjoy Planetside right now, in its current state, but it would add to our enjoyment if it made more sense. We are thrust into a future, sci-fi environment where of course we won't understand how and probably not understand why, but the more logic, the better your experience would be.

    Vehicle combat is good. Infantry combat is good. Cyrious gives a good point about balance between them in his latest video about balance. What happens when they mix is what makes for a less fun game. You have the big bad tanks destroying everything in sight, then the air whales come and destroy the tanks, and the infantry can't take out the air whales because they just fly away, and the infantry can just C4 the sundy over and over again, and it gets annoying. We can balance everything out, more or less. That is why they create these forums. For suggestions, ideas, bugs, and feedback. If we combine realism with fantasy, we can get a good result, but only if we stop writing it off as stupid and we try. Sure, we are in put into a sci-fi world, but I mean, compared to 1000 years ago, we are now too. And it all makes sense. Just boost 1000 more years and make it make sense.
  3. Pikachu

    I have already mentioned it before and devs don't care much for suggestions or they have already considered it long ago.
    [IMG]
  4. Scroffel5

    Thing is, it works. Tanks need to be tankier, and you can do that by simply adding another place for a gunner to sit. What I think is that the 3rd gunner seat needs to be exposed. That would make people happier.
  5. TR5L4Y3R


    yes there is something wrong with having a plattform capable of answering everything .. especialy a heavy armored one were infantry has still trouble engaging it with lack of options ...
    i rather prefer to have specialised units (though with leway to other layers so they aren´t just useless outside of their role ...*cough* skyguard *cough* burster maxes) and have their weaknesses covered by other units
  6. TR5L4Y3R


    you make a whole lot of text with no real suggestions ...
    you ask for a bit of realism but don´t state what kind you want out of it ..
    sry but this is not helpful ...


    tanks are tanky (as in able to take punishmeant) enough, put on a kobalt on them along with the standart maincannon mbt´s have and infantry gets shredded .. kobalt is also fairly good against esfs ..
    infantry rocketlaunchers already have been nerfed to do less damage for being able to carry more ammo
    a tanks main threat is rather air with daltonlibs or hornet-esfs
    LA´s require to get close to C4 ...
    and you require at least 2 or 3 HA with AV rocketlaunchers to quickly kill a mbt ..
    a engineer wit AV turret can almost always only fire one missile before he has to reposition or be blast to bits ...

    rather than buffing MBTs alone further as said before give vehicles (Sunderer, lightning, ANT?, MAX) AAoptions that are skillful but have actual killpottential .. and have these cover your frontline vehicles as well as infantry on the front, in mmore open area vehiclebattles ...

    while you would have an exposed third gunner, what you would do is to increase the damage output
    in which MBTs would dominate infantry even more than they already do ..
  7. PlanetBound

    Sorry. I nodded off trying to read the OPP and all the long replies. What's the Reader's Digest Version?
  8. Scroffel5

    Well for one, I already gave my suggestions, but even if I give specific examples, people tend to focus on those examples instead of the point of my thread or my reply. What I mean by realism is that things would work the way they do in real life, but with a more sci-fi twist. Of course, we don't understand the technology, but we can understand the way it works. For instance, I talked about ESF. They need more "danger" places that you have to protect. If you shoot A, B, or C, it should do greater or less damage based on what your base damage is and what part you hit. A good hit should take it down quickly, changing the ESF into a glass cannon.

    As for the tanks part, tanks sure can take punishment, but they are pretty easy to destroy as a Light Assault. With any other class using C4, they have to run to you. That is different for LA. They have a jetpack. They have the regular jumpjets, which can help close the distance, but Drifter and Ambusher do it better. You can get in and get out before they have the chance to repond, and you have already placed the C4. (We could also nerf C4 by having to arm it. Even science websites say you can't shoot a C4 and it will blow up correctly, and that you could use an electric detonator with some detonator cord connected to a blasting cap. That would take time to arm, so PS2 already has a hand up on realism. I would suggest updating the C4 so that it has to be armed before you can blow it up, because, realism and balance.) By having another gunner, say AA or Kobalt, that makes it harder for LA to destroy the MBTs, as they will probably be shot. For Heavies, you can use cover and peak out and shoot, and the Kobalt can only choose one target at a time. For Engineers, you are supposed to use an AV turret from farther away, not right close up, so that you can almost guarantee a few more shots. At least that is what I have seen.

    With Heavy Assaults, you mentioned that 2 or 3 can do the job quickly. There is a thing about survival that really pertains to this point I am about to make. What advantage do bunnies have on foxes? Foxes are predators, but bunnies reproduce quickly. They have numbers. If one dies, another 3 are born to take its place. That is how the population doesn't die out from all the foxes eating it. For infantry in Planetside, we have strength in numbers. We can have 2 or 3 Heavies quickly destroy an MBT because there are so many, but all it requires is organization, so it isn't an unrealistic goal to be a Heavy Assault kill squad.

    Sure, we don't have to buff the MBTs solely to add balance, because we already have options for AA. I have mentioned an AA sundy somewhere that completely destroyed all the air in the sky. We got rushed by an LA and some Heavies and died, but we at least dealt with air. My point is that we do have good ways of dealing with air. Usually they fly away before they can be destroyed. Nerf ESFs then, and do what I mentioned before. Add stronger parts and weaker parts, like a MBT does. Also nerf Liberators or maybe it was a Galaxy, because they destroy sundies way too easy and way too quickly. To add to balance, we also need to buff the Sunderers, because every time you park, you become a still, easy target. You usually need someone to babysit the sundy and stick around it to make sure it doesn't get C4'd or found by a Heavy or something else. Nobody wants to do that, so I do it. It is annoying to then have a Liberator go overhead and destroy you, and you don't have any AA. I think that you need to have an AA loadout by default, or at least one AA weapon, similar to the MAX. Then you aren't overstocked for AV or AA, cuz lets face it, you aren't doing much AV with a Basilisk.

    For balancing tanks, Cyrious suggested that some of them fire at an arc and.... well I don't really remember, so watch his latest video. I liked what he said about tank balance.

    My whole point of this thread was about battle flow and laying siege to a base, because you have no reason to do it now unless you are overpopping. Also, it seems as if the Warpgate is a source of power, so I think it would be cool if you had to find cortium or go back to the Warpgate to refuel your ANT to take power to the bases for a nice cert reward. Incentive. You refuel the bases so defenders can continue to spawn there. Teamwork. For attackers, they have to stop those ANTs from refueling bases, so they have to blow them up and keep all vehicles out. Teamwork. Strategy. That would eventually transfer over to the Refine and Refuel event, probably. (This is if there was no redeploying, or just a lengthy timer, but if there was no redeploying, people would drive places more often, traveling in convoys, and then there would be more tactical gameplay to stop them. Imagine players riding Flashes and Harrassers, stalking convoys and reporting back to their team where they go. I think that would be cool and help with the flow of battle. It would make Planetside 2 more strategy based, which would help out squads a lot more than it would help out randoms, but it may even help them a little bit. They'd probably work better with randoms then, creating unofficial temporary squads.) If we had to destroy player convoys, that would be a ton a fun, and that whole strategy aspect will bring in more players. If all of these go into effect, including the stuff mentioned in Cyrious' video, I think the game would be more fun and more popular.

    Side note: I think Player Made bases shouldn't have a spawn cooldown, because they run off of cortium. We were having a Player Base vs Player Base battle on Amerish near Scarfield Requillery, and it was EPIC! A large battle, low lag, a stand still, kills galore. It was awesome, and I recommend it to anyone. A base at one of those open capture points was built by us and TR was trying to build a base too. I literally said, "Don't kill redblood, cuz he is building their base. This is gonna be an epic fight." And boy, it was, until my internet went out.
  9. TR5L4Y3R


    LA´s simply ARE the commandostyle unit, it still doesn´t change that they have to close the distance to bust tanks and it takes 2 c4 bricks to bust one .. and unlike tanks the LA has to resuply its bricks were as tanks can bust numerous planetmans before they have to get ammo ...
    you say you want a extra antiinfantryturret, i say you already have one that is more than good enough ..

    the other solution to have defenses against LAs or infantry in general is to have either a lightning or harrasser with a AI weapon and infantryradar acompany the mbt ...
    i suggested a walkerstyleturret for the lightning before and have each the walker and flak be focused torwards AI and AV respectively while being primarily AA weapons ..

    cyrious has a way of thinking i don´t agree with ... so he´s not a person i would trust with ballance ..
    a number of weapons have already an arc/bulletdrop ..

    speaking of battleflow and what you posted in the OP ..
    i pretty much agree with @Lordkrelas here ... because it ignores a number of things ... and we had this dicussed before ...
    this game was made to be more casualfriendly and accessible than its preddecessor ..
    having players to drive up to bases instead of being able to spawn close to them leads to battles occuring less and as such players are spending more traveling than fighting ..

    spawn vehicle, (try to) drive to base, get killed and repeat that whole process .. not every player plays for 3 plus hours ... and i have seen underpoped sides be warpgated a number of times before ... this would make it just harder to comeback from being gated and not only favors overpop but veterans too ..

    pmbs need to stay optional ... not become a primeway of attacking bases as they are faster destroyed than build up ...
  10. Scroffel5

    The LA ends their whole streak easily. It doesn't matter that they have to close the distance. If you have an AV MBT and your top gunner isn't an AI weapon, you are gonna have a hard time taking out the LA, and then they just immediately destroy you. They don't have to arm the C4 or anything. They just click a button and boom. It is even worse for Sundies, because they fly over, drop C4, blow it up, and then rocklet it to death with 1 or 2 mags.

    This game doesn't need to so casual friendly, but the change I discussed here won't negatively impact them. I said IF they got rid of redeploying, and I already said I doubt they'd do that. If the spawn timers are longer as you get farther and farther out, maybe players would be more encouraged to get a vehicle and convoy up.
  11. OneShadowWarrior

    No thanks, spawn camping is bad enough already, the game name should be changed to Campside.
  12. Scroffel5

    How would that cause spawn camping if it takes longer for defenders to spawn the further they get away from their warpgate? Would that not reduce spawn camping? If you warpgate someone, it takes longer to spawn, so attackers can attack easier.
  13. LordKrelas

    With the logic that "Closing the gap, Between you & and the tank" doesn't matter: Shotguns have to do this, and it's kinda a severe weakness.
    The C-4 literally costs per attempt if thrown, and deals no damage unless it is on that tank.
    The Tank can recover from 1% health to 100% health in literal seconds, and has only 1 nanite cost up-front, all ammunition is free.
    So, if you can't set-up Radar, or position yourself far enough away, or have allies, or have dedicated AI,or have a spitfire...
    That infantry unit that you splatter casually, could get to melee range, and actually Kill the tank, rather than damage it:
    Damage which the tank clicks a button & repairs (fire suppression), or restores rapidly with an infinite-ammo repair tool.
    That LA managed to get across the gap, while in the most easiest to shoot position with a predictable speed & pattern, In the air with no damnable cover usually.
    It's fast, as the Tank's ability to recover from Damage is measured in Seconds: Anything slow, and it's shrugged off.

    Good: Specialization as you wanted.
    Your top-Gun is an AV weapon, and you didn't leave ample space to deal with enemy Infantry before they can reach the tank.
    That is the risk of not having any precautions against actually dying to the enemy.
    If the time of arming, Literally is what kills the LA, as it gives you time:
    Then literally the Tank now has an TTK shorter than the arming time.
    Which means even an Short-sighted person, with a delayed reaction time, in the perfect execution of the C-4 Attack by the LA, has still, the best odds of murdering the LA, Which costs that LA nanites.
    Unlike the tank user, who if one C-4 Explodes only, can restore the tank for free, inside a few seconds as if it never happened.

    Sunderers: We have Deployment Shields.
    We have Anti-Personnel mines.
    We have Spitfires.
    We can position them, and know the terrain.
    We also have allies, who can have radar, if the Sundy itself doesn't; (The above is what engineers can do, a single one)
    The enemy is going to target them, as that is the Intelligent goal of removing the enemy reinforcements.
    Which spawn from that position.

    If the enemy LA has time to C-4 it through the shield, and rocklet it, Before an engineer kills them & repairs the damage..
    You have defended that Sunderer incredibly poorly.



    If the redeploy was removed, The enemy that moves fast is able to essentially force their enemy into a travel-simulator.
    That risks an Aircraft coming in & resetting them to the start line.
    It also means, Attacks from Galaxies work best, and work best for Offense.
    You attack a base, possibly on the other lane for amerish for example, and the Defense basically has to drive 3 hexes, while you pile drive the base.
    Or you get a team of Liberators, and roll over their Sunderers, haunt the road, and if they use AA tanks.. you just use the fact , the number of Aircraft in flight is less than the tank count: So less AV or AI in that force.
    Equal Numbers, you've got a Universal platform that erases the ground, they've got a specialized one that deters.
    Whomever has more pilots, Wins: As that ESF is AV & AI, while other ESFs are AA.
    The Liberator is brutal AV, and some configurations even maul Infantry casually.
    If Air was actually coordinated , or with ground forces, Whomever had less pilots would be endlessly dead.
    As Deterrents, are crap.

    Convoy up.. Is not always an option, and often if forced, means a Zerg forms more casually.
    Let alone that, If you're not flying then, You have the slowest response time.
    If one side has more skyknights... suddenly that side is the only side able to respond fast.
    And those aircraft are now easily attacking anything not covered in AA guns: Which any large group needs.
    While anything small, (let alone at low pop hours, or factions), can't afford the Number of AA units needed.
    As then they're die to the first enemy group, that isn't prepared for Aircraft Surprise-attacks.
    Or they'll die to a surprise Liberator, which they can't outrun, and could only scare off barely if they have AA:
    Which it'd only need to target the Sunderer to deny the entire assault.
    (So essentially, at a point, If Air was more aggressive or worked as a team, they determine the entire game, as the Counter-weapons relay on massing & out-numbering, while Air's power is Soloist. )

    In short: The C-4, is quick killing, as the MBT basically can recover rapidly inside seconds, from anything else.
    So the only way to actually kill the tank, is C-4, as it can leave, or straight recover from any other attack.
    Mean while infantry can blow through men & ammo , against the faster, more lethal, and higher health pool target, which has the best odds of survival till the attack is so rapid that they can't just repair it away in less time than it took to deal that damage.

    Enemy attacks, Defenders engage.
    Lets say the respawn time is 10 seconds for the Defenders, and 6 for the attackers.
    There is 4 seconds, before the Defense line regenerates, while the attackers recover numbers ahead of that.
    This means, for every Fallen Defender, a respawned attacker is already up before they return by 4 Seconds.
    So if the distance from their spawn to the front line is not longer longer than 4 seconds, The attacking line recovers ahead of the defenders being able to even spawn, to start running back.

    So the attackers, have 4 seconds where they out-number the defenders, even on a perfect population split.
    Start dropping down a mass group, and the defense can't spawn as fast, so their losses hurt more.
    So it's easier to push the defense back, as their numbers do not recover as fast.. Which makes it easier to push inwards.
    And since most Lattice Bases have a chokepoint Towards the spawn-room, easier to reach that, and the attackers respawn faster so the defense has less time before the enemy returns to full-numbers each time they succeed in killing.

    IE, If the attacker has a shorter respawn, they can reach the frontline first before the defenders even get their men back.
    And bases are designed to where, the Defense has no real advantage most of the time.
    Defense Turrets are rarely in decent positions, Some are even better for Infils to hack than for the defense (Like AV guns aimed at the vehicle pads, for easy rear shots on spawned armor...)
    To the incredibly normal Chokepoint around Spawn-Rooms, which have a Open-field around them, but tons of cover outside the Painfield, a single exit to the rest of the base usually, and some are even open to an Over-looking Hill or mountain...
    Which provides Vehicles & infantry from the Enemy, a defensive position to turn the Defender's spawn-room into a killing-field.

    With a shorter-respawn, Pushing out from these positions becomes harder.
    As does actually pushing them out at all.
    And if the Defenders had the respawn advantage, at the warpgate, same problem:
    If they could reach there, they likely have the Numbers, or the firepower to keep them there;
    If just barely - The Shorter respawn finally benefiting them, they might just overwhelm by the time difference of respawn.
    As if the situation reversed for the above, it would barely benefit the Defense, past just throwing men at the enemy faster than they can - Which easily just rewards man-spam.





  14. LordKrelas

    AMS, is a passive system, that doesn't strip out half your heat-sinks, and weaponry.
    LRMs can be countered by Cover, ECM, AMS, and even passive perks for increasing lock on time & lowering locked-on time;

    Anti-Air Weaponry, is not: You have a specialized weapon that costs you for MBTs, half your firepower.
    For Lightings: All your firepower against other targets
    For MAXes: All your firepower against other targets, or suffer 50% effectiveness for both weapon types.
    There is no Passive defenses, Cover is invalided most of the time for Vehicles, and usually isn't perfectly available for Infantry when they attack.
    There is no warning either; The Aircraft's TTK is shorter, as well: Unlike for LRMs, which typically take longer to kill.

    AA weaponry, is akin to if an AC-2 only worked against Assault-mechs, while the Assault-mech gets a C-UAC20 that works against all targets.
    And if you fired the AC-2 against other targets, They'd have AC-20's....
    So you're a bit in the hole; As we also can't slot in enough AC-2's, to match the firepower of the opponents.
    We get one AC-2.

    LRMs do not require these sacrifices in MWO; and the LRM user, has to eventually engage you & vice versa.
    In PS2, To engage air, you must sacrifice a lot, and Air does not have to engage you at all, It can literally pick & choose.

    ATMs, are also the Clan Advanced-Tactical-missiles.
    I like my ATMs, and I pack AMS a lot.
    Why: As that is a tactical benefit, that doesn't cost me half of my ability to fight the Mechs on the field.
    If we took this G2A interaction; You'd be specializing to engage 3rd party-Aircraft, that you have to Know in advance about, and it takes 50% of your weapon systems & heat-sinks, in order to try.
  15. Scroffel5

    For one, it only takes effect the farther you get away from your warpgate, so that if you warpgate someone else, they can attack back more easily. Imagine being warpgated by 24-48 when you have 12-24. Then, when you push back, it will be easier to take the base. It isn't meant to give attackers an advantage. It is meant to help overpop fights when they are charging your lattice line. When you are closer to your warpgate, the timer is shorter, so it gives defense an advantage. That will help keep the fights closer to the middle section of the map, but if someone does try to attempt a warpgate, the defenders still have a chance.

    For LA, it really doesn't matter how you close the distance. You have a jetpack to help you to do that. The difference between C4 vs MBT and shotgun vs infantry is that with infantry, they have weapons that truly affect you. If you are using a shotgun as a LA, they can shoot at you and damage you before you get in range. When you are using C4 as a LA, you are a much harder target to hit, especially if the tank was made for AV (AV main gun and AV top gun), as the point I was making was pertaining to that. If you just have an AI turret on top, it will be much easier to deal with a LA, but they will still most likely get the jump on you. They can see what direction you are facing, and LAs are the King of Flank, so it still isn't hard. They usually come from behind anyways, so I don't understand your point about that either.

    And as for redeploying, I said they wouldn't remove it and I don't expect them to, but if the spawn timers are longer, that gives incentive to drive or fly to your destination. Even if the redeploy timer was longer, it would do the same thing, but I really don't get why it isn't. You should be punished for running away from a fight, if that is the circumstance, or not just driving or flying there. You don't really need transport vehicles. I rarely see anyone using a Flash, Harrasser, or Valk for transport anyways. They are usually used for combat.

    I like the idea for an additional exposed gunner seat on an MBT. Right now, the Liberators are way too powerful. Logically, why don't you put the same tech that you have on a Liberator onto your big tanks? There were 2 Liberators at a fight today, and they quickly destroyed all of our spawns, overpopped the next few bases, and spawn camped us. We legit couldn't get out of our spawn, except for me, because I wasn't as stupid as the rest of NC. Basically, we can go 2 ways. We can nerf the Liberator, or we can let it pick on someone its own size. (Another side point: the sundies has AA turrets, and it wasn't enough to kill the Liberator before it could take down the sundy.)

    You keep saying that they can repair the tank in a few seconds, but that is if it is a 2/2 tank, both as Engineers, and maybe having fire suppression on it too. In a scenario that is 2v1, usually the 2 win. To even it up, lets give this scenario 2 LAs. Now how are the odds? The driver probably doesn't have an angle to shoot them, and depending on the jetpack, it is gonna make it harder for the gunner to shoot them. By time you kill one, the other has probably dropped the C4 on the tank and destroyed it.

    Sure, sundies have deployment shields, we have anti-personnel mines, and spitfires, but all of that requires someone to babysit the sundy. If your mine goes off, so what? You either killed him or you didn't, and you are probably fighting at point so it didn't matter anyways. By time you get back, sundy is gone. Also, they need to step on the mine or be close to it for it to explode. The LAs have a jetpack. They fly. They don't need to step on the mines. As for Spitfires, you can only have one deployed at a time. Depending on where you place them, they are pretty easy to dodge. Again, LAs have jetpacks. They can fly over the sundy and drop them and probably dodge the spitfire, again, depending on where they are placed. Deployment shield buys you time, but not enough time for you to run back and kill the LA. You also don't get damage warnings from your deployment shield. No one does. You only get the warning after they have broken it and are destroying the sundy. At that point, they just need some rocklets and the sundy is toast. There is always a chance that someone will respawn and take them down before they can detonate the C4 or finish the sundy, but that depends on the size of the fight, how many people are spawning at your sundy, if it is being guarded, and more.

    Nanites are not really an issue. 200 Nanites per brick means 4 minutes per brick. If you screw up using those 2 bricks, you still have 350 more nanites, which at that time you have probably gotten your next nanite resupply and you are at 400, meaning 2 more bricks and another try. Again, not a problem. Just try again, or don't. As for an arming time, the tank already had a short TTK. They can 1 hit you, but the problem is that they can't. You are most likely at a bad angle for the tank, so they need their gunner to get you or they need to switch to the gunner seat. With an arming time, if you have successfully caught them with the element of surprise and they don't hear the bleep bloop of a C4 arming, they deserved to blow up.

    Another problem is that you can't switch your loadout mid-game. You have to die or buy it again. If you are fighting for AV and some air shows up, you gotta switch to AA or just deal with AV. If you do switch to AA, they are going to kill you first. I said that they need AA options by default, because no one wants to spend 875 certs for something that is a maybe.

    With all of this taken into account, by your logic, everybody should have already done what they needed to stop anything that is going wrong. We have tools in the game to combat all the problems we face, but they either aren't cost effective, just plain effective, or not a viable go-to option. Sure, we can have a whole bunch of players to defend a sunderer. It works, but that is the play of a squad. We can have a whole group of heavies to rain down rockets on MBTs and combat them, but that is the work of a squad. We can have a whole bunch of AA tanks and take the punishment from AV vehicles and weapons, but air doesn't always come for you. It is only a maybe. Everything you have discussed is more or less, possible, but it isn't an option the average player would choose.
  16. LordKrelas

    Every base that isn't the warpgate is there.
    When you said Attackers, I thought it was the Guys taking the base, Not the Guys retaking their base.
    Though at that point, It's not really the Defense, it's a new assault.
    But maybe it could work On this single bit, Now that I'm not confused by Your actual goal.

    For the next bits, I'll be using a different bit, as I can't be arsed to do 9 quote sections.
    "For LA, it really doesn't matter how you close the distance. You have a jetpack to help you to do that. The difference between C4 vs MBT and shotgun vs infantry is that with infantry, they have weapons that truly affect you. If you are using a shotgun as a LA, they can shoot at you and damage you before you get in range. When you are using C4 as a LA, you are a much harder target to hit, especially if the tank was made for AV (AV main gun and AV top gun), as the point I was making was pertaining to that. If you just have an AI turret on top, it will be much easier to deal with a LA, but they will still most likely get the jump on you. They can see what direction you are facing, and LAs are the King of Flank, so it still isn't hard. They usually come from behind anyways, so I don't understand your point about that either."

    Flying in the sky, with the Jetpack, leaves them exposed to fire: They are in no way harder to hit while flying.
    A shotgun, the Cover blocks fire from both, and lacks range: The tank has more range than the LA's entire kit.
    Kill the Light-assault: Hell, you can even exit the tank do it. Rocklets need a hell of an angle to have range.

    If the Tank was AV, perhaps it shouldn't be so damnable close to any cover that the LA can jump from.
    As otherwise, is the tank meant to exterminate the LA perfectly, while entirely AV?
    If so: What was the point of specializing the tank? To slaughter Infantry merciless when AI, and effectively when AV?

    If an LA gets the jump on you: You have failed to
    • Use Distance
    • Use Radar
    • Use Spitfires
    • Use Allies
    • Know your environment
    • Learn to move the tank
    That LA had to sneak up on a tank, with 2 people in it, that can see with third-person behind themselves, can equip radar, set-up spitfires, independently fire, and are faster than the LA is with their tank.
    If the C-4 had Arming-time enough that the Tank, can still kill the LA when it's managed to finally close the gap & not die to Anything on the tank, Anything near the tank.. That Tank will proceed to never die, Unless the Driver is over-confident as hell.
    Or never uses their repair tool.

    The Tank's frontal direction, Past the magrider, only is useful for the direction travel.
    The guns do not care about it: Nor is their radar directional.
    And the magriders.. Can move in any direction they please.

    So yes, The Tank not looking behind it, getting flanked for a lack of situational awareness with a 3rd-person camera, is punished.
    And does not have a massive reaction time, After the entire journey is reached.
    The fact that their death is quick, is why Tanks actually fear C-4, and not infantry; As without that quick mass-damage..
    They'd not actually be ever in danger, for not paying attention.


    "
    And as for redeploying, I said they wouldn't remove it and I don't expect them to, but if the spawn timers are longer, that gives incentive to drive or fly to your destination. Even if the redeploy timer was longer, it would do the same thing, but I really don't get why it isn't. You should be punished for running away from a fight, if that is the circumstance, or not just driving or flying there. You don't really need transport vehicles. I rarely see anyone using a Flash, Harrasser, or Valk for transport anyways. They are usually used for combat."
    That's why I still responded to it, knowing it's doubtful.
    Vehicles are already faster, and can reach bases faster than re-deploy can.
    It has also a range limit, and now it has even more limits.

    If Transports were a requirement, The rapid firepower of the fast-moving unis would casually delete them.
    Making a stalemate, based on.. Pilots.
    As none of those transports unless Air, can survive a single air-unit all that well.
    While Air, has the fastest speeds, more weapons, more health, and ignores terrain; So land transports would still be useless.

    You already are punished for running from a Fight: If it was punished more..
    Those who got zerged, would be in constant cycle of punishment after punishment.
    As either screwed, Or punished.

    "
    I like the idea for an additional exposed gunner seat on an MBT. Right now, the Liberators are way too powerful. Logically, why don't you put the same tech that you have on a Liberator onto your big tanks? There were 2 Liberators at a fight today, and they quickly destroyed all of our spawns, overpopped the next few bases, and spawn camped us. We legit couldn't get out of our spawn, except for me, because I wasn't as stupid as the rest of NC. Basically, we can go 2 ways. We can nerf the Liberator, or we can let it pick on someone its own size. (Another side point: the sundies has AA turrets, and it wasn't enough to kill the Liberator before it could take down the sundy.)

    You keep saying that they can repair the tank in a few seconds, but that is if it is a 2/2 tank, both as Engineers, and maybe having fire suppression on it too. In a scenario that is 2v1, usually the 2 win. To even it up, lets give this scenario 2 LAs. Now how are the odds? The driver probably doesn't have an angle to shoot them, and depending on the jetpack, it is gonna make it harder for the gunner to shoot them. By time you kill one, the other has probably dropped the C4 on the tank and destroyed it.
    "
    Speaking to the choir, about Why if we can Mount Daltons to a flier, that we can't mount them on an MBT.
    However, a 3rd gun on an MBT, means additional firepower.. and easier time being universally lethal to everything on the ground.
    Welcome to Deterrents, they attempt to drive off: While the Lib has AV weapons designed to kill.

    You do not lose the Repair-tool as a solo engineer in an MBT.
    You have more speed than infantry, and cover works against land-forces.
    If you're in the open: You're an idiot. With even a bit of cover, the repair tool can repair literally several-rockets worth of damage in seconds.

    If the Tank sits still; And doesn't have AI, the LA's have a shot, but likely will have one dead.
    If the tank does anything to solve their vulnerability; Both LA's are dead from fuel-loss, or in a cycle where the tank lies outside of range.
    The higher the LA, the more exposed to every other target in general; Height also is not easily achieved.
    The single jetpack where the in-flight shot-risk isn't (for extended period), is the Ambusher which is odd.
    As well, Each C-4 costs per attempt thrown, the Tank costs once.
    If your tank is anchored to the floor, pay no attention to your surroundings, lack radar, or anything else... Why do you deserve the extra time to ensure you live?
    That would be as if Infantry with a Knife, could ignore every single enemy with Guns, till they were in range.. that ain't happening.

    "Sure, sundies have deployment shields, we have anti-personnel mines, and spitfires, but all of that requires someone to babysit the sundy. If your mine goes off, so what? You either killed him or you didn't, and you are probably fighting at point so it didn't matter anyways. By time you get back, sundy is gone. Also, they need to step on the mine or be close to it for it to explode. The LAs have a jetpack. They fly. They don't need to step on the mines. As for Spitfires, you can only have one deployed at a time. Depending on where you place them, they are pretty easy to dodge. Again, LAs have jetpacks. They can fly over the sundy and drop them and probably dodge the spitfire, again, depending on where they are placed. Deployment shield buys you time, but not enough time for you to run back and kill the LA. You also don't get damage warnings from your deployment shield. No one does. You only get the warning after they have broken it and are destroying the sundy. At that point, they just need some rocklets and the sundy is toast. There is always a chance that someone will respawn and take them down before they can detonate the C4 or finish the sundy, but that depends on the size of the fight, how many people are spawning at your sundy, if it is being guarded, and more."

    If you aren't guarding the Sundy to some degree (Half of which is just pre-set-up before you sodding run off)
    Why do you deserve your Sundy to live? They're fighting through your forces to reach it, and the defense is half-arsed.
    If I don't guard my sundy, I expect it to die if no one is guarding it: I also attack sunderers.
    They Fly: And it's limited flight, they also however have limited fuel and need to step near on the sundy.
    If you have no guards; An infil with a crossbow could kill it.

    Welcome to Not properly Defending the most important asset on the field for your force: Don't protect asset properly, It dies.

    "Nanites are not really an issue. 200 Nanites per brick means 4 minutes per brick. If you screw up using those 2 bricks, you still have 350 more nanites, which at that time you have probably gotten your next nanite resupply and you are at 400, meaning 2 more bricks and another try. Again, not a problem. Just try again, or don't. As for an arming time, the tank already had a short TTK. They can 1 hit you, but the problem is that they can't. You are most likely at a bad angle for the tank, so they need their gunner to get you or they need to switch to the gunner seat. With an arming time, if you have successfully caught them with the element of surprise and they don't hear the bleep bloop of a C4 arming, they deserved to blow up."
    It's a cost per brick thrown, not tank destroyed.
    If killed after throwing, or mid-throwing, C-4 despawns on your respawn.
    As well, your opposing tank costs 450 nanites once, and can last hours.
    Takes 2 Bricks; that's 400 nanites per attempt succeeding, and 200-400 per fail.
    They can still one-shot the LA, if they aren't idiots: The LA has to get that angle, and the Tank isn't locked to the floor.

    If they aren't paying attention, Why exactly do they need enough time to disarm the C4 or kill the LA, after they already failed to notice a loudly-flying LA with C-4 that got within 2 meters of them, on Tanks capable of having Radar, have 3rd-camera vision, faster speeds, and long-range attacks..
    That's like literally giving the tank, an "If I fail at paying attention, I get a counter-period of 4 seconds to still win the fight"
    While the LA gets one-chance to attempt at winning.
    IE poor tank operation, should not be given That much leeway that Target-fixation leaves them still victorious.

    "Another problem is that you can't switch your loadout mid-game. You have to die or buy it again. If you are fighting for AV and some air shows up, you gotta switch to AA or just deal with AV. If you do switch to AA, they are going to kill you first. I said that they need AA options by default, because no one wants to spend 875 certs for something that is a maybe."

    And that is why Air is a pain-in-the-***.
    It takes less than a minute to travel from one map end to the other from the warpgate.
    So something that has a near universal load-out, has that speed, and the weapons against it: Are so specialized, that it hurts.
    And if you have AA, you can barely use it, as they don't engage.
    If you lack AA, they appear so fast & strike, that you can't disengage.

    Ground is reactive, Air is not.
    Air is kill, Ground is Deterrent.

    "With all of this taken into account, by your logic, everybody should have already done what they needed to stop anything that is going wrong. We have tools in the game to combat all the problems we face, but they either aren't cost effective, just plain effective, or not a viable go-to option. Sure, we can have a whole bunch of players to defend a sunderer. It works, but that is the play of a squad. We can have a whole group of heavies to rain down rockets on MBTs and combat them, but that is the work of a squad. We can have a whole bunch of AA tanks and take the punishment from AV vehicles and weapons, but air doesn't always come for you. It is only a maybe. Everything you have discussed is more or less, possible, but it isn't an option the average player would choose."
    If you don't defend your Sunderer, why does it get to live under assault?
    If you don't pay attention when near infantry, why does the tank get a pass?

    The grand difference between, G2A being ineffective, and rewarding Not actively defending is:
    The tools available for the Job of defending Sunderers & Tanks, actually do their job of killing & work smoothly for average users.
    The tools available for engaging aircraft, aren't designed to kill, and do not worth smoothly for average users, piss-poor against decent pilots on top: Making the counterplay, the air either gets instantly dead (from AA mass), or slaughters the ground.
    Sunderers & MBTs, have counterplay with the elements that kill them or are killed by them.
    Air does not.
  17. Scroffel5

    Hmm. Now I see why most people don't like my typing. It is a ton to read. I don't mean that every base you have except for the warpgate will have a longer and longer time. I mean after a threshhold, say over halfway down the lattice line. Sorry for the misconception. For half of the points you make, they are dependent on another variable. you can only use the spitfires if you bought them and you are an engineer. Otherwise, you have to depend on someone else placing them. You can only use the radar if you have that equipped or whatever, or if you are an Infiltrator using recon darts and stuff. You can move the tank, but constant movement throws off your aim. Players who play as a MBT feel safer in their tank than out of it, so they tend to sit still. By the time you hear that jetpack, it is usually too late. They have gotten C4 on you. And yes, knowing your environment is crucial, but that doesn't help when they have already gotten close. There is nothing you can do about it. You can't shoot them with your main gun, usually. You can't hit them with the gunner because of how fast they move, especially if it is an AV top gun. You can't disable the C4 before they explode it. Sure, we can have sympathy for the LA, because it costed them 400 nanites, but it costs the tank 450. You may not have even really gotten to use it, because an LA is already on you. Never said it was a cost per tank destroyed. You respawn and lose the nanites if you failed. I understand that, but I doubt you will fail. If you use it on a sundy, you are very likely to succeed unless it is guarded by a spitfire, another vehicle, a gunner, or players.

    Your point about guarding your own sundy only works in big battles. Otherwise, they need you on the attack.

    I am not saying that the LA shouldn't be rewarded for getting the jump on a sundy or a tank, but it is way too easy to do. You literally just fly up there and drop 2 bricks on it. Then you click the mouse. Because you have a jetpack, that makes it easier than every other class. You don't see people complaining about an Engineer with a C4. There is time to react. You don't see people complaining about a Medic with a C4. You have time to react. With a Light Assault, you have time to react, but not enough if they use their kit effectively. Their skill is a jetpack! They can fly above you and you probably won't notice because of how quite jetpacks are as compared to gunfire. The tanks shouldn't be blown up by something so hard to beat. If the LAs are right up on you, they can 1 shot the LA, but they only have one shot to do it. Otherwise they gotta reload and they can't fire again. You then gotta rely on your gunner. The LA is such a small target that moves so fast that it is hard to hit. They C4 you, boom, you lost your tank. If they have to arm it, the C4 still isn't useless in their hands. It just makes it more balanced. They fly up, land on top of the sundy or behind the tank, arm it, boom. It is dead.

    I like to picture a Wraith Flash with an LA on the back. Vroom vroom. You hear a Flash come up. They uncloak. You hear it, but you don't care. It is just an Infiltrator, after all. What can it do to me? The LA places its C4 on the back, and the Flash drives away. The Tank turns around, and notices that it screwed up. Boom. The Tank is dead.

    The problem here isn't the Flash. It is the tank. They can hear the loud sound of a Flash driving up on you. They can hear the cloak turning off. They didn't do anything about it, even though they could have one shot it. It is a bigger target than a Light Assault, after all. The Tank had ample time and opportunity to move or turn around when they heard the Flash driving and the uncloak. He didn't do anything about it, and that was his fault. It is different with the C4 LA. They can't react to it, because there are no warning signs. It is the tanks fault for sitting still, but it was so easy to blow up that tanks, so easy to pull off, that it isn't balanced. Sure, it is a risk, but it is a lower risk than using a vehicle to take down the tank.
  18. LordKrelas

    yeah I have a similar problem, So I often split it up myself.
    Who the hell is in an MBT, and isn't an Engineer?
    Spitfires are an option, Just like C-4 has to be purchased, it ain't free either! (and it's one brick per 500C)
    If your gunner can't hit them; They're really piss-poor, or using AV, and You as the driver maybe should move the tank.
    You do not have to move far, And you should actually get good at shots on the move.
    As motion also easily negates the low-velocity rockets, and lets you make C-4 miss... And of course, it's a short-distance move.
    A tank that is sitting still, and isn't scanning their environment, is an Idiot.
    They shouldn't be rewarded, for lack of paying attention.. that LA had to pay attention or be shot dead By everything including the tank.

    That tank, costed 450 nanites, 50 more than the LA.
    And that LA had to survive the tank, everything near it, plant the C-4 Successfully, and detonated it: While the tank can one-shot them, or kill them at long-range...
    When the LA does it perfect, and the Tank fails the basic checks; The Tanker loses 50 nanites in difference.
    If everything doesn't go perfect, or the Tanker succeeds a check; The LA loses 400+ nanites, on the first try.
    800 on the 2nd, even if a success, and so on & so forth.

    Yes, in small-scale that isn't the best.
    But in that case, They had to pull their man off the point themselves.
    And they're better off just pulling a tank.


    When C-4 is easy.. The Tanker is usually pretty bad at their job.
    Flying up to kiss a tank, Is not easy.
    If for some reason, They're close enough to cover that you could reach, and not looking up, using Radar, have no allies, their Gunner is AV, and they're not set-up, while also being static...
    They will die to Anything that isn't in-front of them.

    C-4 is the only way, the non-moronic tanks Die to infantry.
    And those aren't the Decent tankers: Those decent tankers actually move.
    They use their 3rd-Camera perspective, They have Radar, and They aren't trying to kiss infantry.

    No one complains about other classes with C-4, as they're on the ground, forced to come usually in the one direction, and the tank can just slaughter them.
    The Jetpack, does not Magically gain height fast; It also isn't fast at moving forward.
    It has no evasive tricks, so you can cut them down quite easily with gunfire.

    If the tank moves backwards, the LA can't keep up, and runs out of fuel.
    Your main Cannon for TR, has 2 Instant kills.
    NC has the longest reload, instant kill.
    VS has a quick reload instant kill.
    This is the main weapon, You have a top-gunner; If not, Your MBT is working at half-mast at every job.
    You aren't piloting a Lightning tank After-all, it's meant to be 2-man.

    Warning signs;
    You are in combat.
    You can have Radar
    You have 360 Degree Vision & ease of using it
    You can have a Gunner, who usually Scans the terrain around the tank.
    You can set-up a Spitfire, to act as a early-warning system on top
    You can tell where Infantry are going to spawn.
    You can be aware that Cover, High-lying rocks or towers, Means an LA can get height over you.
    You can be warned that it's a risk, When you are too close to the enemy line.

    If they have to arm it: That is more time, for the slowest reactive-only tanker, or Any ally nearby to pop the LA.
    Which just managed to get close to the thing, Through all of these measures, half of which are Basic Self-awareness of the environment.
    You know how quick TTK is, on an LA, by a Tank? It can be about 0.3 of a second. Or an instant kill.
    It already had to kiss the tank, and you want the Tank to be alerted & given additional time, at a range, That No sodding person should be able to miss, to kill the LA, who had to Get past all these defenses & people...

    What exactly will kill a Tank that pays attention, If the most unprepared MBT, has a chance to kill the best Light-Assault that gets inside Kissing-distance?
    As if the most inept operator, can do this, The guy who uses any of these Easy tricks.. Will be damn immune.
    Which by the way; not every LA, can even use C-4, let alone Manage to get to that MBT, let alone if they're not alone on the battlefield, But any MBT can pick-up Radar, a gunner, or Just turn their damn turret around if not Move the tank back 2 meters.


    Cloaked Flashes armed with C-4:
    Vastly different.
    And expensive: and has less reaction time than the C-4 LA.
    Which has no cloak, and has to cross the entire gap...

    C-4 does not need an counter for Tanks to have.
    MAXes have more trouble with C-4 than Tanks: MAXes are slow, don't have Radar Ever, don't have 3rd-person camera, and don't have a 2nd player to watch around them.
    And you want Tanks, to enjoy Ample time After the Enemy has Managed to get close, place C-4, to use their Instant-kill one-shot on the LA?

    Do we need to make Ammunition for Tanks cost 50 Nanites per magazine?
    As with that change, Those tanks aren't dying unless They're sitting still for Rockets, or are brain-dead.
    As if they can't Kill the LA every time, They are not paying any attention at all... As right now, You can casually Defeat the LA, with pressing the Arrow keys.
    Not even having to move, or take any action, Past the last-second to Defeat the LA? That's some ********.
    • Up x 1
  19. FateJH

    If you're going to quote each other, please cut out the body of the text. Your replies are already long.
    • Up x 1
  20. Scroffel5

    I am pretty sure that people who are in tanks and don't play engineer just want to have a higher survival chance if their tank gets blown up. I was riding with a dude who was a Heavy, and after the MBT got destroyed, he just went to battle. My whole example was based off a fully AV tank. If you use an AV weapon for both guns, you might as well just get out of the tank and shoot the LA.

    The LA doesn't have to throw the C4 on the first try if it is a bad engagement. However, the tank spends the nanites up front, so if he dies quickly, he lost it. The nanite cost for C4 only takes effect if it has been thrown, so if its a bad engagement, don't throw it.

    LA also has access to Drifter and Ambusher jets. It is an even lower risk when using those, because you will either not run out of fuel when they are moving backwards, or you will get to them before they can.

    I never have had a gunner that really pays attention to what is behind them. For most tank drivers and gunners, their priority is to kill, not to stay alive, so the gunners are focused on shooting as much as they can. I am always cautious when I hear any "danger" sounds, but other than that, I am shooting something.

    I suggested having to arm the C4 because it raises the skill gap. You have to actually flank, instead of just not getting shot. If you could successfully take down a tank without them realizing what is about to take place, I'd think you deserved it. If they just can't hit you because you are a small target flying at a weird, high angle, and they have explosive AV weapons and can't hit you, sure, that is the tanks fault for not being able to hit you, but it is a really hard target to hit. People complained about the Fury Deci Wraith Flash because you supposedly can't turn your main gun fast enough before they finish you, though I highly doubt that. With the LA, they are basically that, but at a weird angle, a smaller target, and moving very fast depending on what jetpack they are using.

    The C4 arming also wasn't meant for tanks. It was meant more for Sunderers. At least that is what I was thinking about when I thought of it. With the sundy, something you are actually just shooting at the LA, but they just fly over the top of the sundy and around back, while dropping the C4. A split second later, your sundy is on fire, being rocklet'd to death. The Sunderer can't actually move and spawn people at the same time, unless they are your squad, so you are a sitting duck. There may have been players shooting at the LA but they can't finish him because of how fast a target he is. I see LA's C4'ing sundies more than I see them C4'ing tanks, anyways. Also, if you place the C4 on the back of the MBT, if I am not mistaken, neither the gunner nor the main gun can get an angle to shoot the LA because the gun can't go that low under the horizon. The only way to kill the LA would be to drive forward and shoot them or to drive backwards and attempt to run them over.

    The C4 arming change could be meant to play into LA's flanking. Maybe it could go along with the change Demigan suggested in his post about C4s. He suggested different types of C4. Maybe you wouldn't have to arm it for other classes, so that you don't mess up their AI game or their AV game, because they have to run to get to any AV vehicles, which puts them in jeopardy. Or, we could keep it the same, turn up the blast radius, so they have to prime it at a wall and wait for the infantry and MAXs to walk in before they can blow it up. Maybe that is a win win.

    My whole point is that C4 works and is balanced for every other class except for LA. Every other class has to run up and blow up the vehicle, while LA can do it much easier thanks to their jetpacks. Why don't we just give C4 to Infiltrators too, but disable it for Stalker? If the vehicles are dumb enough to not hear an Infiltrator uncloak right behind them, should they get blown up too for not paying attention?