[Vehicle] The harasser imbalance

I'm going to preface this post with the statement that I have not tried the aphelion so I cannot speak as to where it falls in this issue, but there is a very large disparity in performance between the Vulcan and the mjolnir that really needs to be corrected.

The issue lies less in damage output, as when you look at it on paper they are pretty close with the mjolnir edging out on top, and more in damage delivery method, the Vulcan being a constant fire weapon will miss a few rounds on spin up before the gunner has the lead amount dialed in, from then on it's rare that even a single shot will miss out to surprising distances.

On the other hand, the mjolnir bursts, giving the gunner no "consistent line of fire" to base minute lead changes on, this coupled with the excessive randomized bloom of the 4 rounds means 1-2 rounds per burst miss very frequently, dps falls off a cliff because of this, and it happens at not even 1/3 of the effective range the Vulcan is still pinging targets with every shot.

The end result of this is that vulcan harassers have been absolutely dominating mjolnir harassers. I think the easiest way to resolve this would be to remove the burst fire and make it a constant fire weapon, tighten the CoF and flatten the trajectory arc to be more in line with the vulcans accuracy at range, and then adjust its damage output from there so it isnt OP with these changes. In the end, the on paper numbers are extremely misleading for this gun as the applied dpm is abysmal compared to the Vulcan, at least in regards to harasser vs harasser combat, and most other moving targets.

If the Vulcan is the TR Harasser weapon that shreds armor in seconds and destroys sundies in like 2 mags before a sundy has a chance to destroy the Harrasser, then yes. unbalanced.

Actually the Mjolnir did hold it’s own once, but it got nerfed several times because it performed to well. Don’t get me started on the Aphellion, it’s junk too.

my wishlist for harasser,
bigger CoF for Vulcan and Mjolnir (so they need to be closer to do damage)
little buff for Aphelion (maybe make the "big projectile" an auto fired thing ever X number of shots)
HIGHER COST (150 takes the cake 250 would be way more practical for what harassers can do.)
360 rumble seat (yes this would be a fairly big harasser buff because now they can add maxes to their arsenal properly!)
less tanky (these dune buggies should take one less tank shot to destroy, they're just too tanky atm.)

On the topic of higher cost, that is so true. The Harrasser is everything the Flash can't be. What i mean is, the Harrasser has good health, it isn't exposed, it is super fast, it can have turbo and another ability, and it has 3 seats, yet people complain about the Flash because? The Flash is only 50 nanites so people think it is overperforming for its low nanite cost. I don't get people. #Turbo4Flash

If it feels like the Vulcan is OP, it's because it is.

/shrug

Is what it is. Factions are overall balanced but at certain spots things are broken. This is one of those. Devs are unlikely to remedy anytime soon.

Currently the Vulcan outperforms the Mjolnir and Aphelion by a 2:1 sometimes 3:1 margin.

Data:
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,6121&startDate=2018-10-28&endDate=2019-06-13

Ouch, sorry.

Did I say it was outperforming by a 2:1 sometimes 3:1 margin? I meant 5 to 1 margin. My bad. So yeah, pretty broken.

I had a feeling that after I broke out my Vulcan on Memerald for the first time in a year last night I'd see a thread on it today.

The Vulcan has the lowest skill floor. Also the lowest skill ceiling. I am legitimately terrified of the boombox in the hands of a competent gunner/driver combo because it is so difficult to beat AT THE RANGES WHERE BOTH ARE EFFECTIVE. That's the only noise on the field that will make me disengage immediately in order to reset, hard stop. Well, maybe a TB that's REALLY CLOSE and pointed at me. I digress.

Tell you what though. My buddy wants to learn to gun the jeep and I need to cert my NC/VS ones as well. I'm gonna put him in the boombox/enforcer and the Aphelion/Saron. He's really new to PS2 so it'll be a great exercise.

He will, of course, have the benefit of a veteran driver who can explain the weapon mechanics to him and I bet he'll be able to use them to advantage.

Anyway, when we roll up and kill six lightnings in a row in an armor column, while blasting turbo from rear to front to rear THROUGH the column, I'm going to go ahead and remind the Lightning Tunnelers that they still have a responsibility to do more than sit there scoped in waiting to snipe infantry or aircraft.

Also, the Vulcan does NOT 2 clip a sunderer in anything but the most rare real-world scenario. Especially not one that's being defended by two people. I really can't even remember if 2 magazines does more than set it on fire while parked next to it.

For fairness's sake, you listed kills ans not vehicle kills per hour or kills per hour.

Not that it matters, the Vulcan gets more kills, more vehicle kills and more users than any other and for a good reason. Even if you add up the Mjolnir, Aphelion and Saron together you still score less in many cases.

Yep, doesn't include things like k/d and whatnot either. If it was a subtle difference I think such details would be important. With margins of 2:1, 3:1, 5:1 it's pretty clear that it's OP. I really hope this doesn't generate into debate about whether it is or not.

I feel like the Mjolnir and Aphelion are right where they need to be. If they made them easier to spell it would be nice.

I would rather see the others get a buff, than see the vulcan get nerfed, there has been far too much nerfing going around over the last year or two and its made the game a bit bland imo, buff the mjolnir (and i guess the aphelion? havent tried it) to the vulcans level, and then start working everything else back up around that.

Probably a bit of both but I'm not sure it's possible.

Vulcan is OK vs other Harassers, but the MJ and Aph need a buff here. Subtle one.
Vs other vehicles like sundies/tanks, the Vulcan is just plain wrong. It does need just a raw damage nerf. No bloom, no spin up/down, stuff like that. Just strait dmg reduction.

What to avoid IMO though: swinging from one end to the other. Look, something almost mathematically HAS to be on the top, and HAS to be on the bottom. It's ok for the Vulcan to be on the top still. Let's just take it down a notch. It kinda breaks gameplay here and there. Some outcomes aren't supposed to happen the way they do.

I agree that Vulcan is king and has a low floor and ceiling, and that a good Mjolnir gunner who can lead targets greatly increases the effective range of it (as I am one), but as of right now, I think the major imbalance with harassers is that they are currently too durable against tanks for how they compare to them. They are fast, destructive, cheap, and hard to hit, but they shouldn't be durable or they significantly out preform more expensive vehicles, which is what is happening right now. A harasser without a gunner is currently able survive long enough to nearly kill a lightning without having a gunner, which is insane for a vehicle that costs less than half and has a bit more than half the numerical health.

Could they just make it so that it's harder to hit a Persueing ESF with the Vulcan??

...that's all I'm asking for... If the Vulcan didn't pull Double-Duty as a RANGER FLAK substitute then I think we'd see "Combined Arms" sort this whole problem of "Vulcan-Squads" out in the wild as Nature always intended

As it stands currently though, you basically have to run atleast 2 well coordinated and fully Certed Liberator crews if you want to start picking off a Roving gang of Vulcans

KPU (kill per user) seems more balanced. Tr are probably pulling more harassers.
While Aphelion is more or less at the same level of the vulcan, mjonir is harder to use and performs worse.

data KPU.
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02900&startDate=2018-06-23&endDate=2019-06-23

Vulcan OP!

Harassers are especially OP when equipped with a Kazoo horn.

TR are definitely pulling way more Vulcan Harassers - indeed more than Aphelion and Mjolnir combined. https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02900&startDate=2019-05-23&endDate=2019-06-23

Quite often this has a detrimental effect on KPU (there's only so much to kill, after all) - but that's not the case with the Vulcan which often has the highest KPU too.


Funnily enough, there's only been one time in PS2 history when a different Harasser gun was pulled more - and that was the Gatekeeper (in its earlier, render-range killing machine iteration) !

This assumption is a bit forced... there is an indirect competition vs other mechanics.

Ex: If you don't kill a sunderer with a vulcan, probably a LA will kill it with c4

KPU seems a viable metric to de-myth "vulcan op" story.

Additionally if TR pull more harassers mean that some other vehicle is lacking on TR side.

KPU would be fine if all other things were equal.

I remember years ago when Vanu were claiming the Magrider PPA was fine due to the very same stat. However - it most definitely was not fine.

As to the 'some other vehicle is lacking' - that certainly isn't the Prowler as was suggested recently on another thread - i'll repost in this thread:


Prowler is most definitely still used. Looking at the count of 'uniques':

AP weapons - slightly less than Titan AP, more than Magrider - https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,3460&startDate=2019-04-26&endDate=2019-05-26

HEAT - same story - https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,4000&startDate=2019-04-26&endDate=2019-05-26

HESH - same story (occasionally the highest unique count) - https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,4000&startDate=2019-04-26&endDate=2019-05-26


So in summary: ALL Prowler weapon types have more uniques at any point compared to Magrider. The thing that has changed is the count of Vanguards (historically it was always lower than the Prowler).


It's even more surprising when you consider the number of Harassers pulled by TR - here's the CQC comparison: https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02900&startDate=2019-04-26&endDate=2019-05-26
So the Vulcan is still pulled more than Aphelion AND Mjolnir combined. Frankly i'm surprised there's any TR left as infantry to actually take a base.



So - TR are pulling way more Harassers than anyone else and still pulling more Prowlers (than Magriders anyway) - my last comment does seem to ring true. How many TR base attacks have you seen with a zerg outside and just a few guys inside trying to win or defend the base ?

The main problem with Vulcan is a lack of skill requirement, it's very easy to use, any noob can use like 90% of its effective damage.
With Aphelion you must know about the wave shot and judging by random gunners i sometimes pick up almost nobody knows how to use it. Like 1 in 100 maybe. If you always fire it full auto it's literally a worse Vulcan.
To use Mjolnir you must have good prediction skills, the projectiles are slow and have a slight arc. Very hard for a noob.

In hands of a skilled gunner the difference isn't too big. Vulcan is only slightly better.