Devs: Magrider Issues

Is there at least ONE guy here who is not a VANU main, a vehicle expert, and at the same time saying that Magriders are weak?

You have to be a vehicle expert to be effective with the Magrider. Soo, better believe those people with countless hours piloting a Magrider. They know pretty well what they are talking about.

Ofcourse they don't give a crap about my arguments. But consider this: This is a game, and the primary goal of the game is for the players to enjoy themselves. This keeps the money flowing. And these people are all feeling bad about playing with the Magrider. Fun is more important than balance. Take the Vanguard shield, even if it was perfectly balanced the players fighting it often feel it's an instant-win button, making the fight a lot less enjoyable for them. This is reason to change it, key word is change. Not nerf, not remove, change. If you buff something on the Magrider, then either there needs to be something else nerfed on the Magrider or the other MBT's need a buff as well.

I wholeheartedly agree that with so many people thinking the Magrider needs a change that it has to change. But these players assume that because they don't enjoy it and feel stuff, that this feeling is also correct. They feel the Magrider is pulled less and therefore is inferior and needs buffs. This isn't true, as proven by the statistics that the Magrider is pulled just as much per player as the Vanguard. But they feel this so much that they take it for truth. Take Dethonlegs here who claims that he can't beat any MBT, yet when you look at how many MBT's the Magrider kills per pull it's just as many as the Vanguard does. They are so desperate in these feelings that the most perfect proof will not convince them... But I still try, if not for them then for the devs.

These feelings of them won't go away. By all means change the Magrider, but what I and I hope others like Campagne do is help the devs realize that the Magrider isn't inferior, it needs changes to make it more enjoyable for all these people who don't enjoy it, but it doesn't need to be buffed without consideration of the other vehicles!

If you refer to the continuation of the post below I actually found that each faction pulls pretty close to the same amount of tanks each. The difference in MBTs per player of the Magrider compared to the Vanguard is approximately 0.00345, or for every 290 players there is one additional Vanguard compared to the amount of Magriders.

The Prowler is pulled more than both comparatively because it's largely much better in the average player's hands. The majority of the platform's power comes from point-and-shoot DPS while still having all the same flanking options as the Vanguard and Lightning. The DPS advantage is constant and the Barrage ability is a major bonus.

I can't find any information regarding average lifespans of players or vehicles. I know it's out there somewhere, I've seen it before, but I just can't find it. Do you have a link or something where I can find the data?

But regardless, the claim that the VS pull less Magriders is just not true to any significant degree. It's hardly even true in a literal technical sense.

As for populations, I actually noticed this funny little trend while collecting the server populations data:



The NC has the highest population, but the vast majority of them are very low BR. There is a similar number of players from BR41+, but the NC has a disproportionate number of BR1-15s with heavy bleed-over into 16-25, with 26-40 being comparable to the TR.

What this tells us is that most players that join NC (and stick around long enough to do whatever it is they need to do to be tracked by the server) don't hang around for long. About 6000 players just disappear between BR1-15 and BR16-25. The fastest, easiest, and only levels which give out certs are a major hurdle that most players don't seem to cross.

Comparatively, the Miller TR, only 3000-4000 fresh players vanish without a trace. Just under 4000 Vanu never come back either.

This is just on Miller. Miller is the most pronounced of the collection of servers, but the trend is fairly consistent. Often the TR are in the same boat as well.

Source: http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/worlds/

This does not demonstrate that most players prefer NC. Only that newer players tend to hang around a little longer for TR over the NC and VS. The number of veteran players for each faction on each server is fairly consistent, which once again does not suggest most players avoid the VS in favour of either opposing faction.

Actually, look at the numbers at the left side. The TR and VS go to 10.000, the NC goes to 20.000 so an equally sized bar means double the population for the NC. The high BR bar of the NC is about half of the TR and VS one, meaning they have about the same amount of high BR that stick around.

You can check this even. Click the graph and you see that there are 5 steps to reach the 5000 mark on each graph. The NC one is stuck at 2 bars, (2000 players) and the VS and TR high BR player bar's are also stuck at the 2000 mark.

I've played enough with both lightnings (I've auraxed all four main cannons) and plenty with a Vanguard (auraxed HEAT, currently halfway with HESH and AP) to say that the Magrider is the hardest to aim precisely with as you can't "flick" with it due to a reduced effective gun turn rate, especially when zoomed, making it hard to get line up those long range shots on small targets. I have to rely on strafing just to hit nearly every target at any range, and find it very difficult to hit infantry at mid range and impossible at long range. For a comparison I'm able to fairly reliably hit infantry at about 150-175m with the impact or inner blast of the Python AP or Titan AP (Lightning and Vanguard cannons), but am struggling with hitting infantry with the Supernova PC (Magrider HEAT) at half that range 75-80 with or without zooming.

Yes, the Magrider won't win in a straight up fight at any range, nor is it easy to shoot with and isn't much better than a lightning if you don't have a gunner. However, at mid to longer ranges strafing can negate this and the Magrider is also amazing for flanks using routes that would be otherwise untraversable to other vehicles (I barely use it for this though as I don't know many good routes and only drive routes I know won't flip me. Safe driver ftw/loss).

Also, yes, the Magrider is in fact noticeably slower than the Vanguard when driving forward as on a flat and level road the Vanguard seems to accelerate to 55-60 fairly quick, while the Magrider hits 50 and then slowly gets up up to 55. That said, the Vanguard cannot suddenly start moving in two directions at once from a standstill and must be moving forward or backward for it to turn while driving or you will just end up rotating when you want to drive, while the Magrider can effectively move in three directions at once from idle, forward/backward, strafe left/right, and rotate left/right all at the same time.

The Magrider's hover does allow lightning to pass through nearly always unscathed and harassers at low speed with some damage, but this is a double edged sword as it both allows more armor to be in a smaller area than other factions before it starts to congest and allows it to protect or be protected by another tank. However, it also allows enemy armor to gain an advantage by avoiding fire from the main gun and deal more damage by driving under it, although it means you make rear vulnerable to the Magrider's gunner if they have one. This also works as ether a M.A.D or chain/double kill as since other vehicles can be under it, the Magrider's rubble can easily achieve an insta-kill.

Yes, the turn rate is slow now. Yes, the Mag can't win in a straight up fight.
6 years ago I did the following at the mid/close vehicle combat range: see the Vanguard=> hit him with my FPC => jump using magburner right over the enemy to get behind him, while turning my Mag (e.g. "strafejump") => land a second shot to his back => voila - chances to win are at least equal or with some luck enemy is half-way to die.
Today I can't do that - my Mag can't turn fast enough even with Rival combat chassis: while I "strafejump" and try to turn my whole tank, enemy turns his AP turret and hit my weak back
More magburner and/or more rotation speed could equalize chances to win a duel.

Yes. The strafing ability noticeably helps at longer ranges. That is why I see more Magriders at Esamir and Indar - there are mid- to long distance fights. Unfortunately at Hossin and Amerish Vanguard and Prowler can relatively easy drive Magrider into a dead end. One way to counter this - to have a second Saron/Aphelion gunner. But it would be a 2/2 to 1/2, not a 1/2-1/2 duel.

About driving under the Magrider:

Yes, yes and yes. Stealth Har+Vulcan under the Mag = Mag is dead 100%.
That is why some damage zone under the Magrider could fix it.

The best way to survive in a Mag and achieve a good k/d ratio is to be in a swarm with other Magriders or Lightnings. This allows you to play hit-hide-repair scenario. But this kind of a gameplay is less based on pilot's and a gunner's skill. Not much skill required to play this style and survive for a lond period of time. But what about pleasure ? Nope.

That is why I mostly suggest maneuverability buff, NOT armor/shield/health, NOT main/secondary gun dps, NOT maximum speed.

P.S. my magrider has maximum level of Stealth, Race/Rival combat chassis, Magburner, main gun reload rate. So I'm not the guy who put 0 certs to his Magrider and complaining it's weakness.

I have three toons: VS = ASP 95, TR = ASP 91, NC = 44.

I, too, am running a maxed Magrider. I have hundreds of hours in one. I use Magburner, Stealth, Racer / Rival chassis (depends on map and hex), Supernova FPC (AP) and Supernova VPC (AI - depends on fight), and I match my camouflage to the terrain I am on. It helps, believe it or not. I have had several people message me that they never saw me as they passed by. I have most of the top guns unlocked and maxed, and leave it to the 2nd gunner's choice.

By the same token, I also have maxed Prowlers and Vanguards. Like the Magrider, I have hundreds of hours in a Prowler, and probably 50+ in a Vanguard. I am an armor expert, when it comes down to it. I know from first hand experience as being on the receiving end, as well as the one fighting against Magriders, that everything in my OP is factual.

Those that argue otherwise, especially if they are TR or NC, are just trying to protect their advantage. They can quote statistics and numbers all they want to; those don't hold a candle to REAL GAME EXPERIENCE PLAYING ALL THREE.

On a side note, the Supernova FPC will kill a Prowler faster than the Supernova PC. However, the PC will kill a Vanguard faster than the FPC. It's all time based, and the PC edges out by a fraction of a second in the race to do 6,000 damage.

Believe me, I wouldn't be driving the thing for so long if it wasn't enjoyable. The totals may say it's balanced (against a vanguard at least), I'm just pointing out if a mag gets caught in close (an extremely common scenario) by a competent crew (much less common), it's going to die and there is very little to nothing you can do about it. This is what annoys people. There is no mirror scenario that is as common where a mag will almost always win against a competent crew. My definition of competent is pretty loose - basically anyone running stealth who can aim, press the forward button, and (optionally) press the ability button.

I agree that if change happens it shouldn't be taken in isolation (SOE / DBG 's track record ain't so great here), but there are some simple changes that would probably not change an outcome in close, but make the mag more enjoyable. ie:

* Allow the mag to turn as fast as the other tanks can swivel their turret using the mouse.
* Allow the main gun to elevate as high as the the other tanks can.

How about starting there and see how it turns out?

Looks like the answer to my question is "no".
And: Why would someone be a VEHICLE expert only because he spent "countless hours piloting a Magrider" ? I mean: There are Maggy pilots with those "countless hours" that die to 1(!) Harasser, that haven't auraxed even 1 weapon on any other vehicle and that crash whatever plane they pilot 15 seconds after they left their Warpgate. How should those guys know, what a good Maggy pilot can do to other vehicles? (If they don't watch YT videos.)

In my OPINION ("worthless" as every human OPINION, but hey: this is a forum!) the Magrider is easily the strongest vehicle in the game.
Not only because it is almost impossible to C4 (if good pilot).
Not only because it's almost impossible to hit whith a cannon when it's facing you (if good pilot).
Not only because it's almost impossible to get away from it when you'd like to (if good pilot).
Not only because it turns it's vulnerable back away from attackers 10x faster than other tanks (if good pilot).
Not only because it's the only useful tank on the continent called "Hossin".
And not only because Vanu also has the best ESF.

All MBTs can dish out lots of damage and at the same time tank lots of damage. But Magriders can do stuff no other vehicle can do.

Another example.

>5 NC harassers engaging in short-mid range
>4 of them have Halberds

Checks out.

Just because so-and-so collected hundreds of hours of video and compiled a Greatest Hits list, or, was filming and had that once in a lifetime moment, does not mean that this is an everyday occurrence. It's not indicative of typical game play. If you search YouTube hard enough, you can find highlight reels for all the MBTs.

Someone else mentioned that the Magrider can go places that no other MBT can, especially on Hossin. In other words, the Magrider can dominate on one out of four maps. On the other three, the terrain does not really support that advantage, and open field combat, especially at short to mid range, puts the Magrider at a serious disadvantage because of its weaknesses versus the other MBTs.

Good old "experience is better than statistics, except when those experiences don't prove my point and then they must be nitpicked".

Funny thing is that if he had recounted this as a tale, you would have called him a liar and asked for video proof.

And did you actually watch that first "greatest hits list" of him? He's almost constantly moving towards his opponents, closing the distance towards that magical "at this range Magriders always lose line"... And it's because of that reason almost every time he wins, as it allows him to get shots in the rear, avoid enemy fire, move over the enemy with enough smarts to actually turn while on top of the enemy so that he never gets shot in the rear.

Ofcourse, things as simple as "you can turn while on top of your enemy rather than only after" are pretty hard to understand for you as it doesn't back up your point.

Then let's look at other claims, like the "Vulcan Harasser underneath a Magrider". Weirdly specific isn't it? Why only a Vulcan Harasser, and not a Mjolnir Harasser? Well because a Vulcan Harasser is much easier to use for similar power as the Mjolnir, and the Vulcan Harasser is just as lethal if not more lethal against a Vanguard. Magriders can turn their chassis like the blazes, they have a much easier time keeping their stronger side and frontal armor towards a Harasser while a Vanguard is virtually helpless.
And about the Harasser underneath the Magrider. I just tried it out in the VR on a stationary Harasser, and as long as I hit any direction key, I had to try to stay on. Even just standing still and turning caused the Magrider to fall off! Yes! Just moving your mouse is already enough to prevent the dreaded "Harasser underneath me and it's impossible to get off" technique! Keep in mind this isn't statistics, this is experience that the dumbest person can acquire right now by hopping in the VR, or asking a friend to help them out with a test where the Harasser has to try and stay underneath the Magrider and out of it's front canon.
Then I decided to look at it from the Harasser perspective. Both in 3rd and 1rst person view your view of the Magrider is almost zero while underneath. In fact by the time you can see what the Magrider is doing to get off it's too late to correct and try and stay underneath. Meaning the entire story about Vulcan Harassers underneath Magriders is a ghost story: It might be scary, but it's not really true. Are Vulcan Harassers dangerous? Ofcourse they are! But this is no reason to make only the Magrider more powerful!

And the suggestion about "let's just improve the Magrider's maneuverability and see where it goes"? Well we already know for a fact that the Magrider keeps up with the Vanguard in terms of MBT kills. Even if the Magrider has a "death zone" where they are guaranteed to die it also means that they have ranges where they are superior and compensate for this deficiency. This means that you have to make the Magrider stronger in these shorter ranges but also weaker at the other ranges or you would overpower it!
Ignoring ofcourse that this argument of a guaranteed death range is invalidated by watching Blackboemel's success by purposefully going into that range.

That's good

So close.
You're basically always accounting for cover and the best possible situation for every tank to be readily available, this is an incorrect way of measuring things. It's like saying "well if I had a million dollars, I'd donate it" when you don't have that money or the situation to judge whether or not you'd actually do it

except, the vanguard is the least mobile tank in the game, with the worse stats in every regard to mobility. By the time you dip back into cover, your main turret would have reloaded by then, making the entire process moot.

That's weird, I'm pretty sure I already said that magriders lose slugfests when it's just bashing heads into each other. But hey, redundancy for sake of wasting everyones time I suppose.

I could just as easily show you stats for how quickly the vanguard backs up or "strafes" even, use that table to explain why it's bad in that regard and just as easily ask you to do the same thing. But I won't, know why? You've already said that straight DPS isn't a good measure of a tank, or more precisely

So it doesn't matter until suddenly it does?

No, that's dumb. A tank that can better use a topgun than another is like saying the wyrm isn't good on the reaver because it's on the scythe when they're both different ESFs entirely.

I'm pretty sure you're trying to find problems where they aren't, that much I understand. In all your examples of play, it's the enemy team that has better cover, when the magrider can straightup climb mountains or disengage before a fight even begins and yet you're constantly comparing direct damage stats, 100% of the time and yet going back on that and saying it doesn't matter. You're pulling the conversation in every which way, doing backflips to make it seem like the magriders have issues, while other people in this thread have already proven with stats, experience, video guides, every other possible outcome in which the magrider is better because of it's mobility.

Granted, nothing is "straight" better in this game (or at least shouldn't be) but vanguards perform the least well even though they have that "almighty" vanguard shield and yet they seem to keep pace with magriders that don't have any of that.

Perhaps it's your playstyle that needs changing if you need to justify losing slugfests like this.

This thread is mainly about the poor performance of magrider against other MBT. A single video against harrasers will not prove something otherwise.

A MBT SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO TOE TO TOE AGAINST AN ANOTHER MBT.

I don't care what delusion you have in your mind about climbing mountains but it does not help even one bit when facing enemy zerg. I could theoretically sit on a mountain but I will be out of the way or path of the zerg in most of the continents, I would not be able to effectively stop the ground vehicles from capturing our next base.This is the same case whenever we try to capture a base.

There are not enough mountains between the bases to make magrider effective.

Magrider is somewhat playable in amerish but still the plane stale pathways make it a poor performer.

Don't even get me started on esamir , I might as well blow away my nanites on a solo liberator before pulling a magrider , plane terrain = magrider gets wrecked everytime.

Hossin , theoretically it should favour magrider but there are too many obstacles for magrider to get out of cqc from other MBT. Overall hossin is bad for ground vehicles.

Indar is the only single continent where magrider can have equal footing with it's counterparts.

Conclusion - 1/4 continent is playable for magrider.

Solution
1.increase turn rate to double of what it is now.
2.create a damage zone under magrider.(no friendly fire)
3.increase elevation of turret.
4.increase duration of afterburner.
5.increase side strafing speed .

These changes may seem excessive but they would make sure it's not a cakewalk to destroy a magrider without even thinking about positioning and skill.

I mostly play lone wolf and can say that with a single pilot the magrider is vastly outclassed by the situational weapons of the lightening. I havent pulled a mag in years so i cant realistically suggest improvements, but if i had to point to its fundamental weakness, its its fixed turret. Since thats a fundamental design feature it really needs something that mitigates or compensates for the problems that design introduces, strafing isnt enough given how much easier it is to aim with a vanguard or prowler than it is with the mag.

I played all 3 factions and did vehicle stuff alot, I will say it's the weakest of the MBTs & it's status as "heavy harasser" is correctly earned. It's also is (or was dunno it's gotten better) the least solo friendly of the tanks.

It's still better than the ****hole that is the lightning though.

The normal speed of a Magrider (with racer) is more slow than a Vanguard (racer) who is the big fat tank of the game.
SO, WITH RACER :
Average Speed Vanguard : 81 KPH http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2019/22/5/1559307826-vanguard.jpg
(If we run with "doing right/left", we can go to 86 KPH max).
Average Speed Prowler : 75 KPH : http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2019/23/5/1559907547-prowler-speed.jpg
-79 KPH max-
Average Speed Magrider : 61 KPH : http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2019/23/5/1559917046-speed-mag.jpg
-69 KPH max-
So, the maggie can't run away...
Also, I think that it's not normal than a Vanguard has more speed than a Prowler... !
The maggie can not win against a fight against Prowler or Vanguard with his poor speed + ability of 3 sec.
In more, if the others tanks use Barrage or Shield, the Magrider dies before to do the half of damage of them.
Also, the Maggie can die easier against harrassers if they rush bellow the frame.
The Maggie has not a turret and he has to move right or left... and he isn't quick.
= Maggie is the weakest of tanks.
With racer, Vanguard and Prowler can go on the hills, it's not a really feature of the Maggie.
And finally, it's easy with the aerien to kill a Magrider because he is really slow, and he has no protection like a Shield.

Ah yes, because all roads are straight lines. There is no advantage in being able to strafe, TR and NC MBT's dont have much more severe disadvantages when moving and shooting ESPECIALLY at high movement, the NC and TR can DEFINITELY flee the scene at their maximum speed as turning is the exact same as the Magrider on both and they'll not suffer damage and problems doing so, the escape speed of a few meters per second is definitely going to help the NC and TR escape from pursuit even though it might take a minute before you are actually safe unless the roads arent straight and what was I doing again? Oh yeah trying to prove the Magriders inferiority right? So despite evidence that the Magrider scores just as good as the Vanguard in killing MBT's the Magrider is VASTLY inferior and will definitely lose in close quarters combat and as said so well by Valklyn here they also are useless on the long range continent of Esamir even though only one faction at a time really has access to MBT's there at any one time unless fighting near the warpgate making this a weird statement anyway.
That is the absolutely unequivocaly unbiased expience of someone who put in hundreds of hours in all 3 factions and is a perfect master in everything.

Next on our program, why the simple test in VR that shows Magriders have to be trying to stay on top of Harassers is a lie, followed by a sexual harassment seminar given by mister Cosby and Cavenaugh.

Anyone else notice a theme developing here? Those that actually use the Magrider, including those that have played all three factions, are all saying the same thing: the Magrider is the weakest MBT in a typical engagement. It is the slowest moving, hits for the least amount per reload, and has issues with the main gun being fixed and sitting so low.

Meanwhile, those that do not use the Magrider and are only interested in keeping their TR/NC advantage, are the ones that are trying to downplay the issues, and pretend that they don't exist, or, are making up excuses such as "Look at so-and-so's video from his once-in-a-lifetime game play!" Their whole position is based on a random, freak occurrence where all the planets lined up for whomever was in the video.