Devs: Magrider Issues

Please compare the average amount of MBT's per life a Magrider destroys to those of the Vanguard and Prowler. If that doesnt convince you I dont know what will.

(Hint, the Magrider keeps up with the Vanguard, supposedly the king of MBT combat).

Can confirm, according to http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/items/vehicles the ratios for each ES MBT to the faction's Lightnings is as follows:

NC -- 16161 total Vanguards : 22371 total NC Lightnings = 1:1.38425...
TR -- 17366 total Prowlers : 21080 total TR Lightnings = 1:1.213866...
VS -- 12461 total Magriders : 20159 total VS Lightnings = 1:1.617767...

The VS does seem to pull the most Lightnings per capita.

However, some things to note:

• The VS pull the least tanks of both types
• The NC & TR pull a similar number of total tanks
• The NC pull the most Lightnings
• The TR pull the most MBTs

*Totals calculated by adding up all users for all main cannons for each tank.

With a Prowler this is more or less true, but the Vanguard is only as strong as the shield.

Could you add:
- Average survival time (if VS tanks survive longer they pull less. Lightnings and Magriders do not block each other's paths so they are likely to have longer survival rates).
- average population for each faction (if average population is lower, a lower pull rate is also explained. During the great VS exodus the VS pulled ~30% less vehicles but also had ~30% less population, no drop in pulls per capita!).

If I knew where to find such information!

Average population isn't hard to find, of which the VS are considerably reduced on most servers, but I can't seem to find average lifespans or even the distribution by causes of death for vehicles.

Population wise, again according to Dasanfall:

• Connery = 34002 NC, 31101 TR, and 24899 VS
• Miller = 35462 NC, 28112 TR, and 24992 VS
• Cobalt = 28522 NC, 32374 TR, and 24036 VS
• Emerald = 33853 NC, 33880 TR, and 30388 VS
• Briggs = 5759 NC, 7119 TR, and 5016 VS
• Soltech is not tracked.

Therefore the totals are 137,598 NC, 132,586 TR, and 109,331 VS, with a grand total of 379,515players in total.

Given this, on average the NC constitutes ~36.26% of the population, the TR being ~34.94% of the population, and the VS occupying only ~28.81% of all players.

There are substantially lower VS populations available to pull Magriders (or Lightnings) on average, though this may or may not be indicative of why the VS pulls less.

Continued below.

In terms of tanks pulled per faction population:

NC:

• 16161 Vanguards total per 137,598 players = ~0.11745 Vanguards per player or one Vanguard for every nine players.
• 22371 Lightnings total per 137,598 players = ~0.1626 Lightnings per player or one Lightning for every seven players.
• 38532 total tanks per 137,598 players = ~0.2800 tanks per player or one tank of either type for every four players.

TR:

• 17366 Prowlers total per 132,586 players = ~0.1310 Prowlers per player or one Prowler for every eight players.
• 21080 Lightnings total per 132,586 players = ~0.1590 Lightnings per player or one Lightning for every seven players.
• 38446 total tanks per 132,586 players = ~0.2900 tanks per player or one tank of either type for every four players.

VS:

• 12461 Magriders total per 109,331 players = ~0.1140 Magriders per player or one Magrider for every nine players.
• 20159 Lightnings total per 109,331 players = ~0.1844 Lightnings per player or one Lightning for every six players.
• 32620 total tanks per 109,331 players = ~0.2984 tanks per player or one tank of either type for every four players.

Results:

• Each faction pulls roughly the same number of tanks per capita.
• The number of MBTs pulled by the NC compared to the VS per capita is inconsequential.
• The number of MBTs pulled by the TR compared to both the NC & VS per capita is slightly higher.
• The number of lightnings pulled by the VS compared to both the NC & TR per capita is slightly higher.

Therefore, it cannot be concluded that a significant number of VS players choose Lightnings over Magriders, nor that the VS on average choose to pull less Magriders at all.

Awesome! Thanks!

Is this all-time population and vehicles or over a certain time-frame, like months or years? I think you used Dasanfall which tracks all-time stats (or at least from the inception of the site), which would mean that current numbers could be different.

Edit: I just now realized that you've been doing this for some time. Expect me to track down your responses sometimes as supportive facts!

Happy to help! Always do enjoy a good bit of statistics from time to time.

Yes, the data all came from Dasanfall. I believe it's all-time data, or at least post-inception as the old servers like Woodman aren't mentioned anywhere. Which ever it is, the data presently listed is where I collected everything.

If it would help, I can add a tag to all future posts of this sort. Currently I've only tagged the now-outdated list of ES weapons by type and damage models, but I'd be more than happy to stick other posts if they're helpful.

I wish this crappy forum would let me go back and edit old posts.

Where can i vote for Demigan to be a new developer? His arguments are always on point and open minded to another people opinions. He sure will do his best. Looking on his dasanfall profile made me question why do i even try to get better when there is just no way in hell i would ever catch up to this playing planetpedia himself. So guys suck it up he will be best for that job so lets support him.

Not sure if its sarcasm. But while I try to be open minded I can be as much of an azzhat as the next guy and no less stubborn.

The reason why VS pulls fewer MBTs is because we know that our MBT can't go toe-to-toe versus a Prowler or Vanguard. Those two have different mechanics that make them brawlers. The Magrider is slower, hits for the least amount per reload, and doesn't have the luxury of a turret that turns independently of the chassis, or that can fire over cover.

Do Magriders last longer? Sure...because they are not engaging in open field tank vs tank combat, and instead, opt to play like a Heavy Harasser, sticking to the hills. Why do they play like that? Because they can't go toe-to-toe with the other MBTs. That is what my OP was all about.

Why do more people play TR or NC? Those factions have superior equipment, that's why. Gamers tend to gravitate to whatever gives them the greatest advantage.

Demigan please post a video of you using a magrider and 1v1 a prowler or a vanguard with equally skilled player, I bet you won't even win 1 out of 10 times , heck come to Miller and 1v1 me and let's post the results right here.

Your arguments have no logic and you are always running away from balance whether it be harrasers or anything else please enlighten me about how can magrider win a 1v1 stand-off against any other MBT .

It is harder to aim with the magrider and it has health is low as well.

Please cut the crap about climbing mountains it does not help whatsoever as we have an immovable turret we have to climb over cover and if we can hit the other vehicles they can hit back too.

Most of the vehicle fights or zerg fights happens on plane roads or pathways between bases .This is the place where our ****** magrider is instantly melted due to its low health. The only way a vs zerg can win against enemy zerg is if we outpop them 3:2. If this seems fair then something is wrong with you.

Stop please provoking Demigan boys. He already shared all of his 200iq with you telling you multiple times why mag is the best tank. Dont waste anymore of his precious time because as i heard somewhere he is working on new revolutionary theory why vanu galaxies are waay better than nc/tr counterparts. So look forward to this. Thank you.

So campagne just provided proof that the VS does not pull less vehicles per player, and you still try to claim VS pulls LESS vehicles because "their Magrider sucks"?

You are impossible.

Heh, every time I would win you would claim the opponent wasnt skilled or that it was a trick somehow.

Instead of a pissing contest why dont you PROVE the Magrider is worse? The best way to do that isnt a 1v1, but using the stats of every single player so that you get an idea of what the average player will achieve in the Magrider and the other tanks. If the Magrider truly is bad then it would score worse on average.

I already did. But Blackboemel did it better, here is his video:



This video incidentally goes over most of my points. Such as that a tank trying to get under the Magrider is an ADVANTAGE for the Magrider as it provides the best chance for the Maggy to score a rear hit while it provides relatively little chance for a bottom hit to the enemy.

Also could you care to explain for example how my argument that the Magrider has a smaller frontal surface area compared to the Vanguard&Prowler has "no logic"?, or that the Magrider is already better at peek-a-boo fighting around cover due to the Magriders strafing ability versus the way the Prowler&Vanguard need to expose more surface area and take longer to do attacks from cover? Because the claim of the VS was they needed more speed in order to "balance" how they "needed to expose 50% of their tank to fire at enemy tanks from cover". While yes the Magrider needs to expose 50% fhat % is the smaller and more resiliant frontal armor where Vanguards&Prowlers require to expose more than 50% and of their larger, less resiliant side armor. So... where is the ?no logic" there?

It has the same health as the Prowler. And if you try to judge a vehicle by saying "oh noes there's disadvantages" then you can make everything look bad! Example:
Vanguard has the lowest DPS, and its mameuverability is the worst! Its the worst tank!

While the first two points are true, the conclusion that the Vanguard is the worst cannot be determined this way, there is a lot more that makes up the Vanguard.
And your points are only half true, its harder to aim the Magrider yes, but it does not have low health and it has many more qualities that make it a Magrider. And if looking at the full picture of advantages, disadvantages and what performance the players get out of a tank holds "no logic" to you then the problem is with you, not me.

Ah so you want to have the ability to hit enemies without ever being hit back, and you think that's balance? You dont realize how you could use mountain climbing? Blackboemel shows a few prime examples of how its useful. Ofcourse there is more to it than mountain climbing. The way you can move and shoot over terrain the other tanks wouldnt dream about for example.

Really, so you have proof of this? And dont say "I seen it guv", PROVE IT. If the Magrider is really so bad you could prove that it scores worse on average.

Also please explain how the VS wins the most alerts if it loses the vehicle battle so much. Sunderers are kind of dependent on the users having vehicle superiority. And dont come with "VS are more skilled", because the VS does not score better with any NS or carbon copy weapon. From shotguns to snipers to Lightning guns, they score in all practicality equal to the NC and TR with all those weapons so the VS is just as skilled as the TR and NC.

Ah, when the bullcrap runs out the attempts at character assasination begins!

So could you quote me in this thread saying at any time the Magrider is the best tank? You'll find that I provide all the reasons why the Magrider keeps up with the Vanguard and Prowler.

Why don't you actually try to prove the Magrider is worse? Oh but you shouldn't have to bother, here is the calculations I did some time ago (click the arrow besides "Demigan said:"):

Magrider Statistics versus Vanguard Statistics. Hey what do you know... Based on the population, Magriders kill practically just as many MBT's as Vanguards? Well I'll be darned...

• I can't do the things I see in a video with that platform
• Is it easier to learn or just ask for the skill level to be brought down, hmmmm
• Quick to the forums!

Gaming today in a nutshell.

Myself I want to be beaten, I want to see people doing amazing things like that video, I want to scream in frustration having been beaten, then I want to learn from them and be able to do those things!

We've had the stats, we've seen the video. We've had little from the opposing view other than opinion.

Rewatch the video, look for others, badger these guys to let you gun for them, digest and strive to be as good, pass it on.

Advantage ? Lol ! Please post actual video 1-v-1 against Prowler and against Vanguard. Ask your friend to make this video, and show us.
The video posted above about 2 years old and Magrider parameters have changed since 2017. And as every nice montage video shows only wins.
Absolutely clear that Demigan plays words and posts some semi-facts to keep Magrider as weak as it is now.
I play PS2 since 2013 and I completely agree that VS prefer Lightning because of weak Magrider.

Campagne just proved that the VS does not use less MBT's per player than the TR and NC. You know, with statistics instead of "but I played since then and I've SEEN it I tells ya!" Arguments.

The video's of Blackboemel show that in normal, everyday fights the Magrider isnt underpowered. Damnit there's SEVERAL cases where the Magrider goes up alone or with support way back and still manages to score even or superior, and not because the enemies are dummies.

1v1's dont really happen in-game much. Theres always more to consider. Infantry support, potential enemies that may or may not appear during the fight, friendlies that might help or prevent you from retreating or bump you and mess your aim. All these facts are important. 1v1's arent good ways to judge this, and even then Magriders are well capable of going toe-to-toe with other tanks. Hell again look at that video where the Magrider takes on multiple enemies at the same time!

But since you brought it up, if I bring "semi-facts", what have you got for support so far? "I've seen it"?, "VS uses Lightnings more its obvious"? Even though VS doesnt use any less MBT's as proven by others than me?

Why is there an obsession with 1v1 Videos of tanks, directly?
When did Face-tanking shots become the end-all?

Magriders: If VS mystically couldn't kill things with these.. Nor survive engaging enemy Armor proper in straight fights

• They could never get a VS Sunderer to stay alive, thanks to No armor.
  They couldn't push a dedicated line either, to move the front line: Harassers do not really work well for slug-matches even with cover.
• And if you put Lightning Tanks into that aspect: You are not moving these light tanks into open fields, or against full-man MBTs, nor getting a reinforced line against equal-foes: Let alone if the enemy has MBTs, and you have worse-than-lightings.
• If the enemy actually has a fortified position, with only Lightning-tanks, You aren't pushing that back.
• Enemy PMBs: You certainly are not effectively taking out that.

It ain't logical.
No matter of skill would make a Lightning-tank, Let alone something called-worse, only capable of indirect-attacks, Let VS not be constantly locked-down to the warpgate.

As against Prowlers, You would not with a Lightning tank stop them from charging forward, or blowing apart the line.
Nor manage to defend Sunderers, which needed to actually take a base, Past raining men on it.
Which unless VS manages the most Amazing degree of Spawn-beacon spam each base, or Galaxy Spam, Means they need a Sunderer: Which without MBTs, only Lightings, Is bloody unlikely to happen.

The only way to prevent the enemy reaching a base with Sunderers are Tanks, when it comes to open-fields, past brutal Air usage.


When I was VS, Magriders were not rare.
When I was murdering VS, Magriders were also not rare.
Mostly given, that they are able to literally flow across a battlefield, without a damn given about terrain.
Open-Field? That's not as suicidal, as Infantry-grade AV is low-velocity, and not all enemy Operators are decent shots.

Health; Identical to prowler.
Reload Speed; Fastest, as that was switched to the Magrider, from the Prowler.
One of the few changes considering, that didn't affect all MBTs.

If VS lacked an Actual MBT, and were truly only with Lightings, which have identical weapons across all three sides..
VS could not reliably contest TR & NC, given how Zergs, are kinda a wave of Armor.. and one made of Lighting is far easier to kill.
Add to all NS data, of VS doing equal with the same weapons, including Lightings, and they aren't mystically Gods-of-war.

But sure, Let's try to focus on the Notion of Slamming two Tanks face-first, as a Balance-discussion.
It's not like each bloody tank, has different characteristics, that favor & disfavor manners of handling.
Perfect Example: Vanguard, excels at 1v1 Combat thanks to the Shield... Yet it isn't the God-slayer of tanks.
As 1v1, is a different beast entirely from practical PS2 Combat.

You've been baited Into a trap Demigan. They don't give a ** about Your arguments, it's all about flow, may this topic grow so a dev will scratch his head thinking 'I must look at the issue since there seem to be a hot discussion about maggie being up'.
Same as was for countless forum assassinating of Zoe, gatekeeper, NC max, Dalton... The thing is, those who cry about maggie being up, actually don't know how to use it properly. Maggie is absolutely fine as it is. It looks like u pull 0 certed maggie against the world and go crying on forums when you die.
Cert it, stealth maggie with saron is probably the scariest thing in a game for a tanker.

I kill noobs all day, every day in my mag (sub 1.5 kdr). Over and over, again and again. Taking chances, constant flanking, running with the zerg, it doesn't matter - they all die. It's as to be expected given they are the vast majority of the population.

But if I come across a decent prowler or a vanguard crew in close and I can't get at least one rear shot in, I'm dead. It doesn't matter if both my gunner and I land all our shots. It doesn't matter if we get the first volley in. We simply cannot win. Also, Magburn will not help you 9 times out of 10 when fighting in close against a competent crew. Best it can do is allow you to escape and repair. I have 57k FPC vehicle kills between accounts to backup my claim.

So yes, I can see why the stats may appear as they do, but it doesn't negate the fact that the prowler (with increased DPS) and vanguard (with DPS negation) are much more asymmetrically balanced than the mag in close - which is where most fights occur. If every map was like the north of Indar, there would be much less complaining (from Vanu at least).