rebalance infiltrators

Why not just say 1HK? It is easier to understand.

I was gonna post a mid-sized post, but most of it just turns into further BM indirectly.

The only thing I will post from it that if you are going to look at stats, you have to look at all the stats or none; you can't ignore or make excuses for KPM when every single one of your weapons is low. You can't ignore the stats of every single weapon and just focus on the single one that you have good stats on, especially when that one weapon is class restricted to the very class we are arguing is in need of nerfs. You can't ignore overall general stats or claim it is simply because it is an old account, when http://stats.binarycoder.info/playerinfo.php?playerName=Campagne&sampleSize=1000 shows it is very much the same level right now (compare that to http://stats.binarycoder.info/playerinfo.php?playerName=tobimk&sampleSize=1000 and see that while some of his old weapon stats are pretty mediocre, his stats for newer weapons and sessions match the better stats).

Hi, https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=campagne&show=weapons does that just fine. If you want I can PM you the reply I was going to post, but it mostly says the above just with more numbers. If you legitimately don't understand why almost every stat there is mediocre or worse, then I can help clear up some of the misunderstanding and maybe even help you improve them.

Despite all the posturing and character comparisons there is still no evidence for infiltrators over-performing in sight.

The Infiltrator does not win the battle. "Oh great. We need a sundy to start the battle." *gets to the battle* *parks sundy* *sundy starts getting destroyed by a tank* "Oh well. Nothing we can do about that. Let me just go pull another sundy." The Infiltrator can't repair or defend the respawn point, revive their team, or the big tank to take out every enemy in their way. Those things are most important to winning, so no. The Infiltrator is not the best tool in winning. If one side was only Infiltrators and the other side was only medics, the medics would most likely win.

Just as an anecdote, there was a fight at one of the bases on Esamir, and it was literally a squad of medics. We took 1 down, he got revived by the other medic. We took 2 down, they got revived by the other medics. It was insane. The only reason we took them down was because everyone decided to funnel in from the sides and front and gang up on them, and we almost lost that too.

If you want to win the battle and the continent, you wouldn't choose only Infiltrators.

Lets take Infiltrator combat part by part. Lets talk snipers first.

So, lets say I am sniping, which I usually am. If I am within 100 meters, I have a whole lot more targets I can kill, but a whole lot more targets that can kill me. If I am a good enough shot, theoretically I can end all engagements and be at the top every time, but I am not and I don't. I wouldn't call myself a skilled player really, because I am super laggy and make dumb decisions, but I can sometimes get that flick headshot, albeit usually accidentally, and I usually try to hit the head when I am super close. So within 100m, higher chance of kills, higher chance of death, decent contribution to the battle.

Out at 200m, its more of actually sniping. You can get a decent amount of kills if you can hit your shots and are less likely to die, and that is probably your optimal range for contributing to the battle. You can get good vantage points without being too close, but after you make a few kills, you need to have a good sidearm to keep you alive, and then if someone gets close, you have to change position, unless you are confident enough to take them on. Then you can just stay put. You have a lower chance to kill players because of the range, a lower chance of death, but optimal contribution to the battle. You are also "safer".

Now, out at 300 meters, you are getting less kills, it is harder to hit your shots, you are less likely to die to infantry, excluding enemy snipers, and you are relatively safe. You aren't contributing much to the battle. You are only contributing to your personal stats. When you get to 400 meters, AKA my Railjack territory, you are very safe, very low kills, very low deaths, and not contributing at all to the battle. You probably won't get 1 shot headshots from that range depending on what sniper you are using and you won't be getting 1 shotted unless the person shooting at you has a Railjack. It is pointless to go out that far unless you are just playing for stats. That is pretty much long range sniping.

Now, with CQC sniping, your likelihood of kills goes up, but your likelihood of dying increases as well. Say you have 50% headshot ratio with a 50% accuracy. You have a 25% chance to hit the head with your shots, a 25% chance to hit the body, and a 50% chance to miss all together. If all of their shots hit, you will die within a second. It takes 1.1 seconds for you to rechamber your rifle if you miss. Lets say they also have the same accuracy and headshot ratio. It will now take over a second for them to kill you, meaning that if you miss, you have another shot. If you miss the first shot, rechamber, and hit a headshot, they are dead. If you miss the first shot, rechamber, and miss the second shot, you are dead. If you hit the first shot, rechamber, hit the second shot, they are dead. Those are your options in that scenario. WE ARE EXCLUDING DODGING AND RUNNING!!! So basically, the weapon, in its most basic form, requires you to hit your shots and if you don't, you can't rechamber in time to kill them if they have greater than a 50%. Roughly. This ends the sniper section.

Lets talk Stalkers. As a stalker, you have to choose your targets wisely, usually when they are alone. Lets say you are using your default pistol. You already will jump out on an unsuspecting player, so that gets you 1 or 2 extra shots on them, getting rid of their extra health. They have already lost the advantage. Lets say you are within 10 meters. It takes 5 shots with the Mag-Shot to kill in that range. You have already shot them once or twice, meaning you need 3 or 4 more shots within that range. They are turning around to kill you. You now have a short window of time to kill them. You have 50% accuracy, and so do they. With that window of time, you can kill them. Now when they respawn, you have to watch out for them to come with a Darklight, so now you have to move. However, this time they are looking for you and are trying to face you straight on. They are going to be ready when you jump out, so you have to jump out from behind again, or else you are dead. Lets say you don't, because you are cornered and they are coming right for you. Within 10 meters, it will take you 10 shots to end them if you have 50% accuracy. Let me just state now that i know that isn't how accuracy works. You aren't guaranteed to hit a shot then miss the next. You could hit every shot of that mag and miss the whole next mag or miss at other parts in your mag, but this is just for the sake of argument. The Mag Shot has a firerate roughly 360 shots per minute, which is 6 shots per second. It will take you over a second to kill them. Lets say they are also using their faction default. You are already a shot down in this situation because of your health, so you are going to die in that situation. Again, no dodging. That concludes a basic Stalker rundown.

Now lets talk SMG Infiltrators. This will not include Battle Rifle or Scout Rifle Infiltrators, because nobody complains about those anyway. The SMG Infiltrator can easily close the ground between you and another person. Your downside, again, is being a shot down. Lets say you are using the faction higher damage SMG, such as the Cyclone. Theoretically, you will win every engagement because you can close the ground so quickly and end up behind them and ambush them. That is pretty much how it would work, but that doesn't always happen. In a head to head battle, however, you will most likely lose, so you avoid those. I don't really care to argue for SMG Infiltrators, because I don't want them in the game, but to win as an SMG Infiltrator, you have to play in their peripheral vision or behind them. You can only take on one target at a time, so you have to take on stragglers usually. At least that is what I have seen. You have to also cloak as little as possible so as to not give off your position. If you cloak too much, the enemy turns to face you and you are then in a head-on battle. You are most likely going to die in that situation. That is SMG Infiltrators in its most basic form.

I don't think Infiltrators are OP. I am not looking to be right for these points. I am looking to be proven wrong. If anyone cares about the Infiltrator cloaks and tools, I will post those later if you force me to mention those.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...ance-infiltrators.251728/page-15#post-3530372

I can name 2 other classes that can kill way more, far faster than the Infiltrator. The Infiltrator is just fine. Give it a rest... It is like you just look for things to have them mess up. Some of you spend way too much time on here to really be players of the game, but you know, I am going to give you the benefit of doubt. Practice will make even pure garbage seem like the best thing ever. It takes time and effort to red light, green light up to a crowd of people to get at them with the Light Dagger. People who get those kills earned them. The few that you see on Youtube that rush in headlong and get kill after kill, are a very small percent of a lucky few. Most die horribly. I know because I kill more than my fair share of new players thinking: "That B.R.A.S.P. 100 did it!" "So can I-- Aaaaaaaaaaw......." Infiltrators are an annoyance at times, but they are truly terrible fighting multiple people. Especially the ones that can truly stay hidden. You must hunt down and stalk your target, or be waaaaaaaaaay far away taking potshots at people hoping they stand there long enough to score that skull candy.

So to make this clear, the mere fact you sometimes see the Ghost/SAS-R/TSAR as a top 5 (sometimes not even in typ 20) in use weapon on these players means it is over-performing? Meanwhile, these players have kills in the several thousands more in many different LMGs + consistently get a higher KPH with their LMGs.

As for most used weapon. You see plenty of different weapons per class and then the Ghost (and the rest) hover around top 5 (sometimes not even that).

There's a big difference between being competitive/viable and over-performing. Meanwhile, there are plenty of weapons out there that performs similarly or outperforms it. The main issue players seem to have (much like with shotguns etc) is the OHK capability. I can actually sympathise with that and I would much rather had seen scout rifles has the main weapon class for infiltrators (especially fully automatic scout rifles).

Uh excuse me sir, heavies take skill and finesse.

https://imgur.com/gy9UUA6
At another hour these BASRs may be even at 1-3 places.

Ladies, ladies, please, you're both pretty! Joking aside, I would say that ALL infantry classes are viable and useful in their own correct situation. Infiltrators are wonderful at playing like a jerk, sneaking around, knifing guys in the back of the head who aren't looking, but after a certain amount of time, that stops being viable. You see those darklights come up, it's probably better to switch to harassing from a distance or swap to another class.

You're expecting a knock down smash mouth punch the enemy right in the face brawl with lots of fatalities? Heavy is your guy, or medic to cert grind from the heavies in front of you who haven't learned how to dodge yet. MAXs? Maybe, but if you don't have an engineer behind you, you're going to get nibbled to death. Any approach of a doorway means death by C4, so not that great in that setting. Infiltrators are RIGHT OUT, except for MAYBE if there is an exposed flank or some usefulness that can be gained from their motion tracker. But if all they manage to do is kill one guy in the back of the horde who wasn't even involved in the fight to begin with, they're not contributing enough dropped bodies to contribute to the battle, and they're not providing defense on the point. Heck, more often than not, a light assault is going to spot them creeping around and give them a buckshot butt massage because they often fail to look up. So, infils are annoying when they get in and knife you in two hits, but I don't see them as overpowered per se.

But I think we've lost sight of the real evil here: The concentrated HATRED that are Harasser drivers.

I like the way you worded that. Thank you for being relatable.

These are very small samples (from a limited time frame) and for some reason you are excluding NS weapons. There are also not much difference between the Ghost than the other weapons below it. The Bruiser almost at the same level and PA shotguns are not exactly described as the hottest weapons out there.

You got to look at the wider picture. Also, explain why it is suddenly not important to view top players stats when they, for the large majority, perform better with LMGs. We must also consider that top players or subscribers are testing out the waters by playing NSOs.

I fully acknowledge the low magnification BASRs are really good weapons but I think it is unfair to single them out when they're not exactly blowing any other weapon class out the water.

I don't agree, not all stats are relevant. For example I'm apparently very bad at landing headshots... with rocket launchers. That's not exactly important. But for my KPM, does it not make sense, given that almost every one of my weapons has a fairly low KPM, even ones which generally favour a more aggressive playstyle?

The claim of age was actually TMK's claim. I was simply stating my character is old too, older in fact. Yet the defense of age is only brought up for his character and not mine.

PM if you want to, I'll not say no but I don't particularly have an interest in it. I can't even play the game right now thanks to the mouse input problems the DX11 patch brought, so I doubt it would actually help me much at all if ever it could. Thanks for the willingness to help though, I suppose.

But why do you say this, when generally the worse grades I get according to the site are Cs for most weapons and Bs to As with most everything else? At worst I'm average in some stats and above average in others, with my favourite weapons being quite good and a few of my least favorite being what I would actually call fairly bad.

I especially hate the Gladius, Promise, and EM1 as much of my post history may indicate, and yet I actually do fairly well on the bell curve in most areas. I just don't feel like your claims are very fair.

Unfortunately being convinced of your own argument doesn't magically make it correct.

In the interest of comparison, why don't you make a new character then and snipe for a few sessions? I'm sure your other stats would stay the same if your KPM wasn't "deflated" by spending so much time AFKing.

You're making my point for me. Long-range sniping is a risk-free playstyle, and your stats reflect this perfectly. Sniping in close range and maintaining high KD and high accuracy is how you can evaluate an infiltrator's skill reliably.

What? The accuracy is so high precisely because long-range sniping inflates it. Being at no pressure or risk to quickly land a shot and having virtually unlimited time to line up and track your enemies will make your accuracy higher on paper than it would be under actual fighting conditions.

This is also my first character which I used when I was new to the game? I also played with bad FPS for the first years. Difference is that I've always been sniping under high-pressure CQC situations, no matter the type of sniper I'm using.

In addition to that, my snipers nowadays (for example Daimyo on TobiMK (60% acc) and Ghost on LuckstaaaVS (64% acc)) are better than your Longshot accuracy, all while being played under far more difficult conditions.

Looks like the stats are deceiving, as they so often are for people reading them incorrectly.

I'm fully aware that my accuracy on automatic guns is an outlier. I simply found a playstyle I enjoy (aiming slower than back in the day and playing with high trigger control).

I created my XCarapacePlease characters at the end of 2017, and played them as my main characters for most of 2018. During that time all my old characters (including TobiMK) became pretty much inactive. I started playing on TobiMK again in late 2018, when I joined a new outfit. That's why virtually none of the guns on TobiMK resemble my high accuracy from my 3 Miller characters. The GODSAW is the one closest to it, since I finished that aurax after coming back to the character. Similarly the Charger is also a gun I recently started.[/quote]

[/quote]
If you play a class to its strengths, it will perform well. IF YOU PLAY AN INFILTRATOR IN LONG RANGE SNIPING, YOU WILL MOST LIKELY DO WELL!!! The thing is, the farther you go out, sure, the safer you are, but the less impact on the battle you have. I have already said this, but Planetside 2 is not an arena shooter. You can't say a class is unbalanced just because it kills well. Planetside 2 is a combined arms game. Your goal is to lock the continent by capturing the most bases and winning alerts. Thats pretty much how you win. Lets take winning in a small part, say winning a battle. If the Infiltrator is truly unbalanced, it EASILY contributes THE MOST to the battle with very little detraction from the battle. In an optimal situation for the Infiltrator, you won't. You contribute very little to point holds, other than recon. Your optimal place is sniping, that is, taking out high priority targets from long range. In a 24-48 battle on both sides, you can't kill everyone. You have to prioritize your targets, which will help contribute to the battle. That is why most of these noob snipers do nothing for battle. They only contribute to their personal stats, which mean nothing.

Hey, that's what I said!

I would, but as I've said above: "I can't even play the game right now thanks to the mouse input problems the DX11 patch brought..." Here's a thread I made on the subject shortly after the patch in case you don't believe me.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...-looks-and-feels-like-complete-sh-now.251587/

No, you are making an assumption of a playstyle and building an argument upon that assumption. As you say further down, a player can be aggressive with any kind of rifle, but you just automatically assume that because I have an almost universally low KPH I must only be playing in this one specific style. I'd say ask "so and so" but I don't know of any common victims that still play this game. Dat player turnover rate.

Again, if anyone could achieve this level of accuracy over this numbers of shots, I would not be in the top 0.125% of all players. Play as carefully or not as one wishes, he isn't going to get the same level of accuracy automatically.

Yes, my point exactly:

Makes no difference.

If anything, it shows these close-range conditions are less difficult. Because a long-range rifle on average has a much lower accuracy, it suggests that firing at long ranges is more difficult. Your 60% and 64% are M+ and M++ respectively, though each have far fewer shots fired and in the case of the Ghost hasn't even reached 1000 kills yet. A higher accuracy is considered lower on the bell curve with short-ranged weapons over long-ranged ones, suggesting that many more people achieve a higher accuracy in "high-risk" situations than "low-risk" ones with range.

Debate the claim then.

This was actually just a side comment on the amusing nature of our unique mechanics. In any other game a 44% accuracy being considered one of the best accuracies with an automatic weapon would be met with laughter. Could you imagine if Finland's White Death only hit 44% of his shots?

Makin' me work for this one! That was four seconds of my life wasted with that copy-paste.

Again, this is not really indicative of anything. The more a weapon is used the more the stats tend to average out. A new weapon like your Charger has much higher stats because it has a much much lower usage. Once it goes on up into the thousands it'll be much less of an anomaly to the point of total uniformity, one would imagine.

Special for you. Another time, same picture:
https://imgur.com/oH0PWDF
https://imgur.com/8xIOYiP

Because to their kills numbers contribute all three factions. You can divide these number by 3 or even 4.
Or you can add all 3 types of close-range BASRs and then compare to NS weapons. I thought this is so clear to understand.

Multi-class weapon vs. single-class weapon. Still doesn't ring a bell?

Because top players have a little influence on my (and not only mine) perception of the game, short range BASRs PLAGUE in its turn do have.

I notice the lack of evidence but do go on and twist stats/cherry pick. It becomes me convincing every time. Promise.

Let's say the Bruiser is used by less than optimal classes buuuuuut it still performs on a similar level. I guess it needs to be nerfed because some of the classes over-perform. Do I have any evidence for this? Nope but apparently I don't need any of that. I'll just project my own feelings about the game because feelings > facts, right?

It's you, who ignore facts. It's all here
https://ps2.fisu.pw/activity/?world=10
at the end of the page. Feel free to look sometimes.