so the PTS stuff went live...

This is hardly the case though, that's the whole problem. Jibba isn't the only person making reasonable and valid claims on the status of the NC MAX. Not at all.

Also I don't ever use any MAXes, no matter what. I don't have a horse to back here, all I want is for them to be the same or removed.

though i invested certs into my VS max i still haven´t played much with any of them to realy have a say on what i think of them ..
however what i would want maxxes to be is a supportplattform that comes allong with infantry ..
they definetively should not be removed ... instead there needs to be synergy on infantry helping the max AND the max helping infantry and not only in firesupport ..

one thing i´m sure on is ... that regarding esfplay there is almost no point in running a2a lock ons unless you play against newbs or utter idiots ..
and there is absolutely no point in running coyotes ever ...
the wyrm even as a dumbfireweapon that requires aim is a much better secondary weapon than the afforementioned ..

the problem here? flightcontrols are still crap .. so good luck, have fun with any of that ...

sooo at least from VR my impression of the NC max is that the shotguns need at least more default ammo .. even with extended mags i feel you spend just way too much time reloading than firing .. mattocks at 30m require like half the mag to down infantry ..
the hacksaw is just simply inacurate to be used beyont 15m .. compare that to the range and sustained fire equivalent of the TR you can do dmg more reliably and at greater ranges for a good ammount of time ..
NC NEEDS more ammo at the very least .. or bring some of that lethality back .. the way it curently is with maybe the exception the scatter and grinder nc max shotguns feel underwhelming across the board .. heck even the afformentioned still could use more ammo ... i dare say to double the default ammount and extended mags bring + 4 or better + 6 to magcapacity ...

i also don´t realy get why remove slugs as an option? ... isn´t that like a defining NC trait as well .. hitting hard for a low RoF?
i would even say to have the mattock be a slugshotgun by default and buff its range ... seriously these changes are realy REALY questionable ..

Hate to break the news to you it's up and it's down on all servers due to the time period of when the stats are pulled. And NC Max has had the highest on some servers for periods of time and been the lowest, your showing nothing in those links. This is bias crying about stats that we can't even view properly.

It's prime time on Emerald right now (8pm EST) and this is what I see: (these are Emerald, not World, stats)

See, you'd think NC MAX is underpowered now. But what if this is just a classical 2on1 situation? if you are outnumbered 2on1 you make almost no kills and die a lot. That would as well explain why NC is low on all other numbers too.
Then it may be that one faction was running a MAX deathball while the others just had a MAX here and there. It wouldn't be too shocking if VS would pull more MAXes now as they got buffed and everyone wants to try them(happens always when something get buffed) while TR didn't get much of a buff but they profit from NC nerf...and NC players don't want to play MAX as it feels weak now(falling from godlike to normal hurts) and they have to adapt first(they may actually have to utilize the shield now instead of just treating it as a "win more"-gadget).
Last but not least we got a very odd gameplay going(kamikaze infils) right now due to event. Possible that players not cramped up around capture points hurts NC MAX gameplay more than VS and TR which actually can make better use of their range(which they normally can't if everything is just about capture point buildings).

If you want some stats that are worth mentioning then you need to wait a few weeks and you need a larger sample than that.

Or the reason nc max is doing less than half the performance of VS and TR in those stats is because it is working exactly as expected...

It has a fraction of the range of the other maxes, (pellet spread and monstrous damage drop off.)
It has a fraction of the sustained fire of the other maxes (vs can fire Cosmos for 21 damn seconds)
For the most part it even deals less cqc damage than the other maxes. (Hacksaws beaten by freaking Mercies)
It is worse in literally every way, and is performing worse, shocking right?
Well perhaps to you it really is! Since you were constantly saying "let's see how it does on live!"
Well there, we've seen how it does on live...VS KDR:3.45 TR KDR:2.05 NC KDR:1.16
Yes that means that NC maxes armed with their tickle guns on average are getting a single kill before dying...
Three times less than VS with their hitbox-hack ammo Cosmos and bullets for days.

It was gutted, entirely, and EXACTLY WHAT WE SAID WOULD HAPPEN has happened.
They've Wrelled it up completely.

So when I post its cherry-picking, but the one moment NC surpasses the others on one single server it isnt cherry-picking to show only that single server? And that one moment makes up for all the moments the NC was inferior?

I smell a cherry-picking rat.

Hold on, these are the exact live stats you've been glorifying and saying that I spin stories to justify them, and now they show that you were wrong what do you do...? You remain a Hypocrite to the bitter end right?

NOOOOO! But nice try. The sample was larger. It was not during an event and the meta had time to settle for like...ehm...3 years(!!!!). Not compareable at all. But as I said: Nice try. You never fail to amaze when it comes to misinterpreting and abusing statistics. ;-)

Time will show...not doomsayers.

One impact it definitely seems to have so far: You do not see 1-5(depending on the size of battle. 1 even got pulled on smallest of all fights.) NC MAXes running at the capture point whenever a fight gets close and no easy-win unstoppable MAX crashes anymore near the end of an alert.

So why would you react and spin stories when according to you its useless until its settled?

And maybe you missed it but I already said that we should keep an eye out to see what happens, but so far all those stats point to one thing: NC was overnerfed.

So far stats point to nothing, you mean. A stat that is not reliable is no stat. I learned that at university.

So far you've not been reliable. even ignoring the bad stats and interpretations you've offered, the fact that multiple times I could quote a post of you or me that proved that you were talking bullcrap, or even just lost what the hell you were trying to prove, shows that.

An example is that right here you say an unreliable stat isnt a stat, but that didnt stop you from using the amount of users stat wrongly even after I pointed out it was unreliable because it had different numbers on different pages of the same site and that the stat was misleading as a hell.

Also the point of checking periodically is to gather reliable stats. If you see a sudden spike once in a while but on average its lower you can make a solid assumption. Saying "these stats are unreliable because we have a small sample size" is reason to keep gathering. And that isnt putting words in your mouth unless you missed the rest of your university classes: right now the only reason these stats are "unreliable" is because we dont have a lot of samples yet so unless you are trying to push your agenda regardless of the truth your words mean exactly that.

Now we're live, here are some changes I'd make:

1) I would like to see tighter pellet spread (improve lethality in CQC through aiming and would extend the effective range through enabling more hits)
2) A slightly larger mag in conjunction with the above.

For me, it is simply a case of 'the boy who cried wolf.' So much denial over the NC MAX and how powerful it was DESPITE hard data backing it up. So yeah, watching NC players oppose the nerf (I thought it was poorly thought through too) complain didn't really have much of an effect.

The BG discussion is similar to the NC MAX discussion. We have a VS HA weapon which is clearly performing well beyond other LMGs. Much like NC players tend to claim the pre-nerfed MAX had no range and whatever else excuse we see VS players claiming "oh it is just a worse Orion" and the heat mechanic is only good against poor players.

No one likes to admit they're winning because they have better tools. It stings our ego. Then we start looking for excuses, stats, or data to cling to. Personally, I think a BG nerf is inevitable now that the dust has settled around the NC MAX.

I can't say I really agree. The NC MAX even prior to the changes did have more weakness with greater impacts. If it was doing well it was in the ideal situation where any MAX could have done just as well. There were situations where a TR or VS was flat out better.

I'm not so sure about the BG either. Not that I disagree, but literally the only difference is the rail attachment. The heat mechanic is mostly better than a grip for a gun like the Orion, but it's not an automatic upgrade as a replacement. At least, not necessarily. In my opinion any nerfs should aim towards the base weapon itself. (Looking at you 0.04 bloom.)

Regardless, I think at least most of the points in the defence of the NC MAX are fairly valid. Mostly. The 0.XY or 0.0Z TTK differences prior to the nerf weren't exactly the deciding factor in the majority of engagements.

LOL, I see what you did there.

You snuck in an illegitimate complaint next to a legitimate one then made it so that anyone that disagrees about the one gets the same treatment as the other.

It's not similar...unless apples and oranges are similar too. The stats we got for Betelgeuse are not compareable to "normal" weapons...cause only people with 6+ kills with LMGs can even use it. And those players do not only have a lot of Heavy experience but as well most likely certed that one out. So all the noobs and people with uncerted shields and no nanowave are not included in that KDR of the Betelgeuse. They possible already have friends, an outfit(play in groups, get revived), situational awareness...all the stuff that ups your KDR.
If I give a world class table tennis player a pan and then say the pan is better for table tennis than other rackets because he can beat everyone on schoolyard with it...well...it is a classical interpretation fail of what is responsible for his success.

I ain't saying that Betelgeuse ain't a very good gun(I don't have it). But compared to the Orion it can't be much better given the basic numbers and attachments etc.. And as much as you may hype the heat mechanic...it won't get you from 1KDR to 2 or 3KDR(I'm not sure if it has any influence at all...but definitely not beyond 0.1-0.2 increase...which would already be a lot)...so there got to be something else responsible for the great stats of that gun. Most likely the reason is what I explained above...

I guess you have another opinion on this. This is just how I see it. I'm all ears.

Everyone, more or less, pulls a MAX for the same reason and it just so happened to be the NC MAX (pre-nerf) was more ideal than the others for this role. All the while also having access to slugger MAX (my NC MAX of choice) which added quite a lot of range (and all those cute little C4 fairies who fall out of the sky with a surprised look on their faces. Priceless). The combination of sluggers/buckshot NC MAX units was utterly devastating. Slugs also had AMAZING synergy with the shield.

Sure, it had its advantages and disadvantages but even after that, it was very powerful in just the right places and with an infantry terminal easily adaptable to different scenarios.

You are bizarre and have issues... There was no cherry picking because I clearly stated. "Some of the factions are at the top and also at the bottom depending on when the data is pulled in the time periods there pulled." Proceeded to post the data to show my point. You posted a link to data that changes and that link is where I pulled my picture from fyi.

Stop trying to construe things I clearly didn't say. I said you jumped the gun and you did cuz we don't know the whole picture yet. You and your circle jerk crew can continue at it.

And i'd rather be a Rat than a Turd...

For me, the big thing with the heat mechanic on the BG is I can just keep going if I play smart. It is not ideal for massive point holds/pushes where you can't really choose not to fire (since you'd be rather dead) but yeah, I've gone on some absurd kill streaks with it simply because I've been able to keep going and also stay in ADS to be read rather than a reload. Before really getting into the weapon I was highly skeptical but it has made a big difference.