[Vehicle] Vanguard with the Soul of a Harasser

@WrelPlays: Soooooo, I wanted to see what would happen if I gave the Vanguard the physics of a Harasser. Worked out way better than I thought it would.
Well this would be a much needed changes to the Vanguard. It wouldn't hurt if they also made a similar change to the Lightning.

Vanguard definitely needs upgrades, but the Lightning is a better candidate for such abilities. It would fit with the style and purpose of the vehicle and make it stand out more against MBT's.

Vanguard doesn't need any upgrade whatsoever. It is perfectly balanced as it is. I agree about Lightning though.

Just like the NC MAX changes are perfectly balanced as long as they leave it weaker at just about every single range compared to the TR and VS?

The Vanguard's "strength" has always been tauted as MBT killer, yet it trades places with the Prowler often and the Magrider gets about the same MBT kills per life as the Vanguard, and since then the Vanguard has received nerfs to it's shield and health. In just about everything else the Vanguard is straight up inferior to the other two in terms of actual performance stats it achieves. Like it or not, the Vanguard needs upgrades to it's base chassis to make it as capable as the other two.

Level of ridiculousness is measured by the amount of juvenile approval.

I wouldn't mind if all ground vehicles across the board got a movement speed buff, tbh. It would certainly help make things more balanced compared to the overwhelming advantages aircraft have, without having to actually touch any weapon stats.

I can't talk about NC MAX changes yet because I don't know much about it. That's completely irrelevant anyway. I am not that type of guy to tell you everything about the faction I like is inferior compared to the others and any nerfs to other factions is fair. I have noticed some of you in the forums that do this on a constant basis but whatever.

The Vanguard is not exactly said to be a MBT killer. It always depends on the situation you are into. An NC Vanguard's strength is facing others on head on encounters and advancing through passages or roads with low maneuverability. Also one of its positive attributes is its survivability but always in certain situations. MBTs in PS2 demand different playstyles. You just can't have it all, you have to adapt and learn how to be effective with each faction's MBT. There are advantages and disadvantages. Stop asking for buffs because you don't have the upper hand in every single encounter. Deal with it and move on!

There is a limited amount of dealing with it you can do. If for example tomorrow the VS somehow had all their primary infantry weapons locked, they could try to deal with it by using pistols and vehicles. But no matter how much they deal with it, their weapons will simply be inferior in this scenario.

You can claim the Vanguard can advance through passages or roads with low maneuverability, but it can't really. The battle won't be between two sides slugging it out both out in the open, it'll be fought from cover to cover, and each time an enemy is damaged he'll return to his cover to repair. The TR have the highest DPS, giving them the highest chance of finishing off an enemy MBT that is returning. The VS have the highest maneuverability, giving them the best chance to avoid damage, have more people aiming at the same target as more people can make use of the same cover and the NC... They have extra health and a shield which helps them get back into cover but nothing to win the DPS race. Their slow and long tanks are badly designed for such slugmatches, and only their copious health allows them to just hang on and even the odds slightly.

This is reflected in the statistics, the Vanguards (before the health and shield nerf) lasted about 2 minutes longer than the VS and TR. Despite this extra time they barely keep up in MBT kills per life and score worse in everything else (unless you count aircraft kills but that has already been remedied). Again: They have more time to actually do something, but at best manage to score even. That indicates an inferior capability of the weapons and chassis compared to the VS and TR. The solution isn't to make the Vanguard a death-machine, the solution is to rebalance it. The shield should feel less like an Iwin shield (which it isn't, but it's how people experience it), at the same time the basic chassis of the Vanguard needs upgrades so that it can equal the VS and TR as vanilla tank. For all I care you change the current 1000 extra health into a regenerating shield and give the Vanguard some new ability and upgrades. The point is that the Vanguard is simply inferior and needs far too much "deal with it and move on" to be fair and balanced to the VS and TR.

Exaggerated...

While I do agree with some of your points, I believe you underestimate the power of the shield and general health Vanguard gets and how useful it can be. It is also something that will help you win the DPS race if you think about it.

The only way a Vanguard can win the DPS race is to pop the shield during a charge. The enemy tank takes damage, you don't, so when you finally do start taking hits, they're already in the red.

Exaggerated so the point comes across: "dealing with it" is no magic spell that makes things fair. You have to look at what can be achieved and if this is a reasonable achievement for the effort put in.

I dont underestimate it as I know exactly what it brings: longer life of sub-par performance compared to the other two tanks that allow you to just about break even in one category and be inferior in everything else.

I'm not saying the Vanguqrd cant be a powerhouse, but compared to the other two its got far less going for it. The biggest problem is that all the Vanguard's abilities only work when fired at. The TR can use it when they flank, attack or defend. VS can use it when they attack and defend by fielding more in the same area. A Vanguard that isnt being engaged? A glorified DPS machine that would be better as a Lightning as that has more DPS. The abilities it can activate and on its chassis are simply far less useful in PS2 multi-tank combat and it shows.

Yeah you might be a bit behind because the shield has been changed to a resist shield. You do get damage while it's active and cant use it to escape with a bit of health anymore. And the higher damage resistance has been changed into extra health, so that we have the same shots to kill but also double the repair time (it takes half a maximum certed repairgun overheat more to repair a Vanguard compared to the Magrider and Prowler).

Also considering the DPS of the Vanguard, even with the 8 seconds of shield you get you cant get your enemy in the red unless you rear-end them.

As I said, it's a matter of different playstyles and how you approach it. It's too simplistic to say that "Vanguard's abilities only work when fired at" when there is more into it. It helps in both defence and attack, you just need a different approach. Someone could also say "Prowler's abilities only work when it fires" but it doesn't work like this. A Vanguard can also flank, it just can't do it in the same way like the others depending on the situation.

You are arguing that I personally have to get better. You dont know how well I play, I could be the worst Vanguard player ever or the best, but that doesnt matter. What matters is that on average, every Magrider and Prowler user has an easier time achieving the same or better performance compared to the Vanguard. This means that despite all the playstyles, all the different skillsets and capabilities of the players and vehicle, the Vanguard simply lacks.

Your solution of "you need a different approach" would need to apply to every single Vanguard user, and basically ask them "you need to play on a higher skill level than your opponents just to score even". Thats not a solution.

I am sorry if you feel that way, but I did not imply in any way that you have to get better or you are bad. You say Vanguard is weak and needs upgrades, I say it's fine as it is. We are just in disagreement and for a second I thought I could have a healthy conversation/argument but...oh well.

In all honesty, I just believe you are biased and I wonder why do I even bother with some of you at times. I should not expect much from people that pop up in every thread to say how unfairly their beloved faction is treated and always rush to justify any nerfs to the others in every single scenario no matter what. You cannot even deny this because it is factual.

You think we can have a healthy conversation/argument with your attitude? Here's a list of what you've "argued" so far:

"Vanguard is fine".
"Vanguard's strength is facing people head-on"
"Vanguard just needs a different playstyle"
"You underestimate it's power"
"It's a matter of different playstyles"
"I say it's fine as it is".

In the meantime I use the old stats that showed that the Vanguard isn't fine. And since then it's shield and health have been nerfed (instead of resistance he got more health, meaning more repair time than before and no extra advantage in shots it can tank). The Vanguard is not fine, the Vanguard's problem cannot be solved with "a different playstyle". I have been making an argument, what you've done is closer to trolling.

Let's use an analogy here. Imagine if the TR got a gun that fired Orbital Strikes. No cost, no cooldown, just a Carbine or LMG firing Orbital Strikes. You could have used your "arguments" for the VS and NC saying "it's fine", "your strength is <something>", "Your weapons just need a different playstyle", "You underestimate it's power" etc but you know that it would be meaningless arguments (I hope). And it's the exact same here: They are meaningless.

Sure I'm biased. I point out that it's already been established that the Vanguard quite literally underperforms and the only stat it's supposed to be the king in it's barely keeping ahead of the other two, but that's all inconsequential when you say "nah it's fine". And therefore I'm biased! Since you've made no effort to prove that you are right and you are convinced that you are right anyway the only conclusion can be that you are biased.

Also you'll find that I'm always advocating buffs and additional mechanics over nerfs. But hey why not try to invent something to make your point right? Hey I can do that too! Ahem: "Crash Bandicoot doesn't really join many discussions, but when he does all he does is call for nerfs".
See how "effective" that was? It's a meaningless statement because you don't continuously call for nerfs, but since you made up the fact that I continuously applaude nerfs to anything not my faction I can call that out about you too right? And now it's true right?

I merely replied to you in the same way. You haven't really said anything the whole time or given details. I didn't give details either as I thought I didn't need to analyze things as you were doing the same. Your "analogy", for example, is another irrelevancy(like some other weird examples/arguments or however you call them) that has no point or place on the matter.

You know what I mean when I say you are biased...I guess. Furthermore, all you do is present your opinion as a fact and that's it. If this is an argument to you then you do you. Also, let me see those stats(a link maybe) because if they are those I think they are, there is no problem.

I did not invent anything and the forums is my proof. Sure, you might be advocating for buffs in some instances. You always defend NC in every way possible like some others do with VS and TR and it's all there for everyone to see. We are not the same in that aspect. If you were a fan of TR you would rush to the forums to say how unfair the changes made to Prowler were or how horribly it was nerfed. I didn't do that like some other fanboys and the changes were fine by me. So, even if you said that about me, it wouldn't be true.

The only thing I have said that needs change in the game is the NC MAX but when you tried to accuse me indirectly of being biased about the recent changes, I simply told you the truth. That I don't know if they are fair or not as I don't know much about it yet.

Look at this page for post #57. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/how-to-improve-the-magrider.245134/page-3

For convenience I've put the post below, but you can find the entire "discussion" in the thread linked above if you want. Unfortunately Oracle Of Death is inoperable nowadays, and Voidwell simply isn't up to the task of giving the appropriate stats. It only gives the daily stats in a graph rather than the monthly, and I did try to redo some of the math I did in the quote below but I quickly found that I could cherry-pick a day to make either the VS, the TR or the NC look awesome depending on population numbers of the day. Hence we need bulkstats for a month or so to have accurate data and I'm not going to add up and compile 30 days worth of stats for you to ignore, nitpick or just misinterpret them like they did with the math below. If you want to prove your point, you get to do that.

Ok..again i didn read all of ur posts guys, i just say my opinion. Yes, the vanguard was and still ist the MBT Killer. But hey, why??
We all want balanced weapons and vehicles, but NC hast the most OP weapons and vehicles. And then u still cry about if they try to fix that a little bit. Its a joke.

The vanguard still hast 1k more life as TR´s or VS´s MBT, ist still has a shield that eats up to 2k dmg. WTF u know!! Its way to Overpowered!!!
For example. You can just ride your Vanguard in and kill a Magrider easy. A magrider needs to outrun u, sneak u up from behind and then still needs to hope it can kill u fast enought before u start killing it. Thats a joke if u ask me.

Ok, now maybe some wirll say...hey, the vanguard ist a front battle tank, the magrider is a hunting tank to use on longer ranges. Aahahaha...what a joke again. That little bit of lower RoF the vanguard has is not to mention because its higher dps makes it equal, it has way less bulletdrop and the projectiles fly much faster, so what?

Again here i just can say. Dev´s, pls play your game yourself, longer then just 10 mins to test your new features. Play every faction and u will find the things that are unbalanced.

The grass always looks greener on the other side.