I might be wrong.. but are NC weapons better than TR?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by ConcernedPlanetsider, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Rydenan

    That is provably false. The damage differential based on a pause, if graphed, would be a wave, where either gun may come out ahead in damage, depending on the length of the pause and when the pause was taken. With the average necessarily being the DPS differential between the two guns.

    Meaning that if both guns did the same DPS, then both guns would have equal chance to come out ahead in damage after a pause, on average.

    But, since the CARV does more DPS than the SAW, that means that - after any given pause - the CARV will come out ahead, on average, in damage.

    It's simple math.
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  2. Rydenan

    That 0.01 is a 20% difference, mate.
    The Orion blooms twenty percent less than every other 143-damage gun.

    The fact that "0.01 is a tiny number lol" means nothing.
  3. csvfr

    I would actually believe the opposite held true. A high RoF gun (750RPM) has a refire time of 0.08 seconds, a low RoF gun has a refire of 0.12 seconds. Imagine the bursting pause is taken at the worst possible time, being right before a next shot. The high RoF gun will not lose more than 0.08 seconds worth of damage, while the low RoF gun might lose up to 0.12 seconds worth of damage. On average, if taking a pause at a random time whilst shooting, the high RoF gun only loses 0.04 seconds worth of damage compared to 0.06 on the other.
  4. pnkdth


    That is true but...

    0.01 is a tiny number which you, and others, try and make it sound like a bigger deal than it is by saying "oh wow, 20% difference!" It is a numbers game. In plain numbers, we're talking 0.04 vs 0.05 in bloom per shot. There are other factors which determine the accuracy of a weapon. For example, having 0.5 less recoil on a 750RPM weapon helps the MSW-R and the SPA gives it an edge in certain ranges the Orion cannot (no matter the skill of the user) overcome.

    Does this make MSW-R the clear winner? Nope, but why should it? They're different weapons. Very similar but slightly different.
  5. Rydenan

    If 20% is no big deal, then I want 20% more damage on my Gauss SAW, please.
    After all, that's just 0.0003 more damage per microsecond, so it's really not that much.
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  6. AlcyoneSerene

    You're both correct, but now we need to consider the actual interval taken between pauses, when one takes the pause, and the TTK on an average encounter. A low RoF gun makes it easier to pause following a shot than a high RoF gun where the pause may take place at the worst moment. That pause interval might also happen to coincide better to match the refire time on a low RoF gun - I'm not sure it does, but highly suspect it does based on how low RoF guns feel.

    So in other words, the length of the pause to allow the CoF to shrink (bloom) I believe better matches low RoF guns since it can squeeze in between refire rate, not actually degrading DPS due to impacting RPM: "For vast majority of weapons, Cone of Fire recovers at a rate of 20 degrees per second"-http://iridar.net
  7. csvfr

    Lol no I don't try to make it sound bigger just trying to put it into perspective. None of us chose the units or system for bloom/accuracy. It seems like this is common:
    • .04 - Orion, Pulsar, (+ other VS weapons?)
    • .05 - most 143 dmg guns
    • .06 - 167 dmg guns
    • .07 - 200 dmg guns
    Take e.g. the SAW or A-Tross assault rifle with NC. They have .07 bloom which is - only - 0.02 difference from the 143 dmg tier, but the bloom is much, much more pronounced with these guns.
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  8. pnkdth

    I think it is odd there's such a singular focus on the cone of fire. The rate of fire/recoil/angle/tolerance plays a large part in what separates a close-range weapon to long-range weapon. The A-Tross may have a 0.07 bloom per shot but its recoil pattern and low rate of fire afford a lot of control thus making sure you keep landing hits. The CME is another weapon which despite its 0.05 bloom per shot is a laser pointer.

    Going back to the MSW-R, its slightly lower recoil makes it easier to keep bouncing back to the target and therefore make sure the cone of fire is on target. Like I said in the post you quoted, they go about their business in a similar yet slightly different way.
  9. Lee Weldon

    I have no doubt for me on paper Orion/Gaus saw and carv sound all good and fine until you need to hipfire. But to manage the gaus at a range it works well at needs that advanced forward grip whereas I hipfire all way too much for these guns. But let's talk bloom and mathematics since I have studied at university and your logic seems flawed. Let's take area as pie r squared, 20% the way you put it seems big but it's really your shot has (4,4.07,4.14... so forth and that sounds negligible). But that's no way to look at it either, far too simple, at x distance there's y area hitbox. X shrinks as distance increases but y doesn't. But so n chooses c y/x. Does having two shots bursts at a far (4.0, 4.04) 4x or (4.0, 4.07) hit more reliably 3x in the head. I think the whole damn argument at this point sounds so damn arbitrary at this point even because msw and anchor at this point already seem more suited to the heavy at respected ranges and hva brings other guns effectiveness out to 30m (always better than the gaus up until like 43m), pull out your sas-r or default snipe at these ranges.
  10. Demigan

    People I see a lot of stats of the weapons thrown around, but instead of theorizing about what each weapon MIGHT achieve you should be looking at what the weapon is achieving RIGHT NOW.

    Can anyone just look at these weapons objectively and say "Hey, the TR/VS/NC is overall performing better/worse/neutral compared to the others? Because this "I've got some stats about weapons" is very cute but means jack crap. Case in point are some of the NS weapons that are statistically worse in most ways (DPS, damage per magazine, alpha damage etc) but because they are easy to use and dependable they'll easily keep up with other "superior" weapons in the actual performance.
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  11. csvfr

    According to dasanfall, the Betelgeuse (auraxium variant of Orion) is the best performing LMG by far. It also has the peculiar 0.04 bloom, heat based ammo, but is otherwise identical to the standard Orion.

    Betelguse A.KDR ~= 2.5
    NS-15MP A.KDR ~= 2.0
    GODSAW A.KDR ~= 2.0
    Butcher A.KDR ~= 1.8
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  12. Nenarch

    NC weapons have been best since start of the game.

    But in the end players matter more, VS guns have been nerfed so many times and Still we do well..

    Not sure how the dev's are split between factions, but at somepoint there was only 1 VS weapon dev and we Felt it.
  13. csvfr

    Well on the Orion its slightly lower bloom makes it possible to actively place the CoF at the target (head) when it drifts and still score a headshot with greater probability than the MSWR. So as you say it comes down to playstyle differences. Orion is more suited to pro-style high DPI mouse + twitch aim etc. instead of center of mass aiming.
  14. pnkdth


    That doesn't make sense since the same pro-style gamers actively chose TR over the VS the second the Orion lost its ADS movement modifier. Why would these players make it harder for themselves? Doesn't seem to be in character of such players.

    Yes, if a player does not know how to compensate for recoil then COF can become a deciding factor with headshot placement. In this case, having 0.35 recoil (instead of .4) on a 750RPM weapon makes it easier to remain on target and minimize the impact of an increased COF. This statement is actually supported by how high precision weapons are made to be accurate in PS2 rather than personal bias. In other words, with better recoil patterns and behavior you can directly affect crosshair placement which in turn means you can minimize/mitigate the effects of the COF more efficiently.

    All the stats work together to make a whole weapon. It simply doesn't make any sense fixating on a single stat.
  15. Demigan

    Ah yes! And this VS superiority is especially visible when using NS weapons and carbon-copy weapons like snipers, shotguns and Lightning canons where the VS... Score the same or worse than the other two factions?!? So VS superiority is only there when using VS faction specific weapons? Meaning it's the weapons, not the VS skill that makes them good? Or is that too much truth to handle these days?
  16. pnkdth


    20% of something can be a big deal, or it might not be if we're talking difference between two very similar values. That's the point.

    In your example here you've simply done a raw 20% damage increase which creates an entirely different damage model. It could certainly be balanced out with reducing rate of fire (just like how weapons have lots of other stats and attachments to determine their role). Just because you reduce the numbers down to milliseconds does not change the fact where you added that 20%.
  17. Demigan

    It's a start but KD doesnt say everything. You need to add the KPH to see which weapons have a lot of KD ****** and perhaps also add the average damage dealt. If damage dealt is high but KD is lower then it's a weapon that cant really finish an opponent for example.

    Then theres the problem that saying "ah but there's one weapon that's good" means nothing much for the faction as a whole. You need to look at the most used weapons, then look at the total picture it creates: which faction is superior to the others with the most weapons will win the most.
  18. csvfr

    Vertical recoil translates to the constant speed at which you pull the mouse downwards to compensate. It also becomes the fixed distance the crosshair flies up should you choose not to compensate for it. This can work in one's favor, if for instance one is aiming at the body but want to go for the head, the gun with the higher vertical recoil will put the crosshair there faster. Of course this pro-technique works best with straight recoil guns such as Orion and not biased ones like MSW-R.
  19. csvfr

    Betelgeuse KPH ~61
    NS-15MP KPH ~62
    GODSAW ~55
    Butcher ~53

    These are all high values compared to 30 - 40 which is normal, but it is also prime weapons. Could not find damage dealt statistics. So it might not say much about the faction as a whole other than the heavy LMG category, that VS is best there with their Orion/Betelgeuse, which might just be because of the unique 20% reduction in bloom.

    In other threads it has been discussed that TR has the best Tank with the Prowler outperforming. Also NC is claimed to have the best MAX with the shotguns. So each faction has their strengths and weaknesses I guess.
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  20. BigG

    Yeah they are the best and anything else you have heard is propaganda. NC weapons have to be OP for the game to be balanced because the average NC player is ********. Dont believe me? Just ask Higby.