Can we finally level NC to TR and VS standards?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Armatrax, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. Campagne

    I've not seen any actually evidence for why this would ever be the case, across all factions and servers throughout the world. It just doesn't seem likely. And we know the players are roughly the same skill levels based on the performance stats for NS weapons and equipment.

    Theoretically at least each factions skill if there is a difference would likely even out as more players joined because the larger the size of a population is the closer to comes to the average. Even by some strange reason only skilled players chose and stuck with VS the more randos that join as the fodder we all know and love will drag the overall average skill down to the NC where apparently few good players exist. And that's assuming players only ever play a single faction.

    If you stuffed a bunch of white kids in an Asian school and vise versa the average grades would even out as well.

    I don't really agree with much in these two posts, but this one I can't help myself.

    Here are the three factions' weapons according to damage models:

    LMGs:

    NC............................................................TR............................................................VS
    MGR-L1 Promise...... -- 143/698..............MG-H1 Watchman. -- 125/857.................Orion VS54... -- 143/750
    EM1........................... -- 143/659..............T9 CARV............... -- 143/750.................SVA-88......... -- 143/698
    LA1 Anchor................ -- 167/600..............MSW-R................. -- 143/750.................Pulsar LSW... -- 143/698
    EM6........................... -- 167/600..............T9 CARV-S........... -- 143/698.................VX29 Polaris. -- 143/659
    GD-22S..................... -- 167/577...............T16 Rhino............. -- 143/659..................VE-H Maw.... -- 167/600
    NC6S Gauss SAW S. -- 167/577..............T32 Bull................. -- 143/652..................Flare VE6..... -- 167/577
    NC6 Gauss SAW....... -- 200/500..............TMG-50................. -- 167/577..................Ursa.............. -- 167/550

    ARs:

    NC............................................................TR............................................................VS
    GR-22.................. -- 143/800....................TORQ-9....... -- 125/857..........................H-V45.................... -- 143/800
    Carnage AR......... -- 143/750....................Cycler TRV.. -- 143/845..........................Terminus................ -- 143/769
    NC1 Gauss Rifle.. -- 167/600....................TAR............. -- 143/800..........................Pulsar VS1............. -- 143/698
    Gauss Rifle Burst. -- 167/600....................T1 Cycler..... -- 143/750..........................Equinox VE2 Burst. -- 143/698
    Gauss Rifle S....... -- 167/577....................T1B Cycler... -- 143/750..........................Equinox VE2.......... -- 143/652
    Reaper DMR........ -- 200/500....................T1S Cycler... -- 143/698..........................CME....................... -- 143/652
    NC-9 A-Tross....... -- 200/469....................SABR-13...... -- 167/600..........................Corvus VA55.......... -- 167/550

    Carbines:

    NC............................................................TR............................................................VS
    GD-7F......................... -- 143/845.............LC2 Lynx........ -- 125/909........................Serpent VE92. -- 143/845
    AF-4A Bandit.............. -- 167/632.............TRAC-5.......... -- 143/750........................VX6-7............. -- 143/800
    AF-19 Mercenary........ -- 167/600.............TRAC-5 Burst. -- 143/750........................Zenith VX-5.... -- 143/723
    Gauss Compact Burst. -- 167/600............LC3 Jaguar..... -- 143/750........................Solstice VE3... -- 143/698
    Gauss Compact S....... -- 167/577............TRAC-5 S....... -- 143/698........................Solstice Burst.. -- 143/698
    Razor GD-23............... -- 167/550............T5 AMC.......... -- 143/652........................Solstice SF...... -- 143/652
    AC-X11........................ -- 200/500............HC1 Cougar... -- 167/577.........................Pulsar C.......... -- 167/577

    SMGs:

    NC............................................................TR............................................................VS
    Blitz GD-10.... -- 125/845..........................SMG-46 Armistice. -- 125/896.................Sirius SX12. -- 125/845
    AF-4 Cyclone. -- 167/652.........................PDW-16 Hailstrom. -- 125/800.................Eridani SX5. -- 143/750
    MGR-S1......... -- 200/522.........................MG-S1 Jackal........ -- 167/600.................VE-S Canis.. -- 167/550-667

    Sidearms:

    NC............................................................TR............................................................VS
    LA3 Desperado...... -- 167/500.................T4 AMP.......... -- 100/937.........................Spiker................ -- 167/480
    NC4 Mag-Shot....... -- 200/351.................TX1 Repeater. -- 112/845.........................Beamer VS3...... -- 167/451
    LA8 Rebel.............. -- 250/261.................TS2 Inquisitor. -- 143/531.........................Manticore SX40. -- 200/351
    NC08 Mag-Scatter. -- 100x6/133..............TX2 Emperor.. -- 167/400.........................Cerberus............ -- 250/300

    Source: http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons[

    The NC do not have any special or additional high RoF guns and in fact the NC's weapons' RoFs are always the same as the VS or lower. The doesn't have any magical high RoF guns which just blow the competition away. Please don't perpetuate the myth any further. :confused:
    • Up x 3
  2. adamts01

    I think we can agree that VS gear isn't OP. The fact that they win more alerts with less population, historically across all servers, does say a lot.


    I admit I haven't played with many of the VS guns. But I do go back and forth quite frequently between NC and TR infantry, and I'd trade TR's guns for NC's any day. I admit it may be personal preference, and also partly due to my frame rate sitting around 50-60, but NC guns are that sweet spot with fire rate and damage. VS guns do seem pretty great, but those stupid projectile effects with my settings always blind me and cover up my target. I just can't stand most VS guns that aren't hip fire.
  3. LordKrelas

    Well, that's kinda the point.
    VS complains about their Magrider, and does get the "Your entire faction just needs to get good"
    It gets statements, of how to best the qualities the Magrider has; Not that at Ace levels, it outshines other tanks.
    The Reaver is being said, that if the faction on average can't use it to the level it's capable of, at Ace level, it's on the faction's average skill, not the aircraft's capabilities being only viable at higher levels.

    Simple:
    Rebuild the Reaver, as unlike the Saw, it's not an option, it's the entire air-power outside of Liberators for the Faction.
    For the Magrider; Similar issue. Mind you, not as extreme, since on average, that vehicle is actually doing well.

    It's not a 'Asymmetrical' to have one side's entire vehicle, be inferior expect at Ace levels.
    That concept, is incredibly stupid.
    As it means the other side's, if opposite, caps at, and is screwed, against skilled opponents.
    Or is entirely superior, by the higher number of operators available to use the vehicle at full-power.

    Basically, I have an issue with the notion being seen, that "your entire faction just needs better skill" to used, when the average user is unable to get even average results with their vehicle.
    Magriders have an average result, that is favorable at least.

    The Reaver itself, wasn't my goal.
    Though, when one side's entire ability to engage Air, with the most cost-effective aircraft, with entire configurations for anti-air work, is basically negated until Ace levels..
    Due to Aces being able to obliterate opponents to specks, when at that level of skill... I think the thing needs a bit of a rebuild.
    I don't fly, That's something I state.
    I don't want it to be an Ace at all things;
    I'm after the notion of "Average user skill" being a valid counter-balance or balance for a faction's entire & sole option for anything.
    We have multiple guns, but one ESF, one MBT.
    If one gun is like the SAW, greatly rewarding for the experienced, near useless in novices, and middling in average-users;
    You can switch guns to something that is actually viable in your hands.
    With MBTs & ESF's, that ain't a thing.

    TR & VS Tankers, that are used to notions incompatible with their entire tank; They can't switch tanks.
    Tasks the vehicle fails at hard: They don't have the option, that lets them actually do anything about it.
    If the average user, can't use something to even average results, and that is the only tool for that task;
    If the other sides, don't have this issue, as their version allows average skill to reap average results...
    You can put together what kind of issue that is.

    And it's not specific to anything, nor any specific side.

    [IMG]



    IE this is what sparked the entire original reply.
    From the start of the Game's life, at equal qualities, NC lost, and has kept losing.
    So NC's entire loss rate, is blamed on the Average skill of NC, not being high enough to use their weapons...
    Past average skill levels of this game.

    As the next bit, quite literally show-cases.
    The average pilot in an Non-NC ESF has the easiest time hitting the NC ESF.
    The average pilot in an NC-ESF, has to hit smaller air targets.
    When the two are equal, the NC comes out on top:
    All three have different ease of use, with the mossie being said as the easiest.
    The average Mossie user, will have the easiest time, while the Scythe has the easiest time in A2A.
    The average pilot from this, will not be the NC on top, it will NC on the bottom, with the least effective A2A ESF, except in Ace hands.
    As the ESF Pilot for NC HAS to be good, to use it:
    If the average population was "Good", the NC Reaver would be OP as ****.
    It's not (Average population skill), so it's basically taken-out commonly.

    As the entire ability to dominate or be dominated, for the average pilot, against or in, an NC reaver...
    Is their Skill in said NC Reaver, dependent on the aircraft.
    That is what I've gotten from this;
    If Equally skilled, on the "Good" Side of the spectrum, the Reaver is superior.
    If on the average, The reaver is easily dead & demolished.
    That's the entire A2A Flagship for every faction, is their ESF, and is the most common aircraft spawned in the game:
    With Only NC's, apparently needing higher-than-average-skill to properly operate.

    That notion, seems a bit stupid.
    As would thinking every single Magrider, is somehow Ace-operated, which is how the Magrider's average is.. bloody high.
  4. adamts01

    I stand by that comment. NC loses because of piss poor teamwork and leadership. It's the same reason VS does better with fewer numbers and arguably no OP toys.
  5. Campagne

    I think at least most VS gear isn't OP. Things like the Scythe are simply too easy to use for their effectiveness I think, which allows average players to do better than other average players from TR and NC.

    I think it is just personal preference mostly. I've played a bit of TR here and there and I really like some of their guns more. I have the same sort of issue with VS though. I find all their super wide reflex sights to be super distracting for some reason and I always lose sight of the dot. :confused:
    • Up x 1
  6. adamts01

    The Scythe really is easy mode for most players. I do get the argument for normalizing ESF, I just hate losing faction flavor.


    What TR guns do you like more? I can't think of a single one where I'd not rather have NC's counterpart.

    And yeah, I hate VS sights as well. The lack of a frame really screws up my sight alignment speed. I kind of blame that on my lack of use of those guns though. Maybe a Recursion overlay would solve that. Optics plus the lack of those blinding projectile graphics make me prefer NC's guns as well, even though the stats are similar.
  7. frozen north

    Again, I know exactly what you mean. However, I figure I should refer back to something adamts said a while ago.

    Quote from adamts:
    " Here's what's important. Most pilots can't shoot. Not through fault of their own, this game just has terrible mechanics. This means that the larger hit box of the Reaver and the smaller front hit box of the Scythe turns in to a massive difference for the average player. But, once you get to the level where you can consistently hit your targets, the Reaver goes from worst to best very quickly."

    I think what was being gotten at here was him noting about the nature of air controls. The flight controls in this game have always been my major complaint. Admittedly, I came to this game from war thunder, so perhaps I had an unrealistic expectation, but I fully believe that the greatest difference between a bad pilot and a good pilot is merely in how well they know the flight controls. Right now, it's less that the reavers stats create it's average player displaced behavior, but rather the games flight mechanics interacting with it's stats.

    The reavers hit box and DPS do interact negatively with the flight control system, this is true, since it amplifies the difference in skill between players far more then it should. If people really want to balance ESF's I think the reaver is not the place to do it. The flight controls are. For me, and I suspect many other players, the controls often feel clunky, out of place, and generally hard to use, so any minor edge in survivability will get blown out of proportion, while a DPS edge sufficient to compensate would be game breaking in all other aspects of combat.

    And understand, I have flown the mosquito more then any other ESF, and I am a terrible pilot. Believe me, any pilot who knows the controls better then I do ( which is to say at least 90% of the playerbase) will demolish me, regardless of what aircraft I am in.

    At the point where the controls stop being a hindrance, the NC dominate beyond any shadow of doubt. But until you get used to the controls ( which I never have), you will struggle, and any minor difference in power becomes massively noticeable.
  8. Campagne

    I like the Carv, quite a fun gun. But I really like the Cycler, really lives up to the hype. Wish I had a copy as NC! The TRAC-5 really is rather meh though, disappointed with that one. MCG is kinda fun too, so is the AMP. Repeater is overrated in my opinion. Wanted to try the TRAP, but I guess it just never really happened.

    Yeah, it's probably just because we're not used to them. Hard to though, when I can't hit or even see what I'm point at. I don't think I've had the same issues with the projectiles though, maybe only in extreme CQC.

    I like NC guns the most as well, but largely because I prefer high damage low RoF guns in general. But I do think the TR and VS are very much on par although in different ways, at least for infantry weapons.
  9. grazr


    NC MBT HEAT http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/3700
    TR MBT HEAT http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/4000

    NC MBT AP http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/3730
    TR MBT AP http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/4008

    NC MBT HESH http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/3731
    TR MBT HESH http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/4009

    Note the KDR despite the Vanguard's shield "advantage". The obvious DPS advantage is shown rather obviously also in the KPH.

    Though you are correct about the ESF noseguns, i overlooked the M30 when making that statement, the M30 pulls ahead of it's peers by 10%, but the M20 pulls behind in survivability, would be interesting to know what that pathetic KDR of 1.4 is about.
  10. frozen north

    Check tank secondaries as well. NC pull ahead almost universally there. Only place it doesn't with the halberd is KDR X.

    NC MBT Halberd: http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/3709
    TR MBT Halberd: http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/4015

    I always like to make sure to also track the performance of tank secondaries, since an MBT without a full crew is arguably worse off then a lightning. And since the Halberd is by far the most common secondary I have seen on either tank, it's a good bench mark.

    It's also worth noting the stat's don't track MBT versus MBT engagements.
    • Up x 1
  11. adamts01

    Lockdown HESH Prowlers and hill-camping Mags are known infantry farmers. Comparing those KDRs to an anti-armor tank is just silly.
  12. OneShadowWarrior

    As a long term standing member from the original Planetside and a Beta Tester for Planetside 2. I have to honestly say that the TR should be just dissolved from the game and their weapons absorbed into VS and NC.

    TR has always been a odd fit since the beginning of Planetside. The NC has always been the workhorse with similar projectiles with better stopping power, where Vanu had finese and mobility.

    The rift has shown more in recent developments with Empire specific weapons where the SMGs such as the Canis and Gladius reign supreme. While in LMG’s the Promise you can just hold down the trigger, I never auraxed in a weapon so fast and the MAW requires little to no aim. Both the Watchman and Jackal pale in comparison, just mere shadows.

    Even the Prowler is a flaming heap and I rather take a Lightning.

    In terms of assault weapons, I took ASP with Engineer with Assault Weapons for NC only, the Reaper, Carnage, Tross, GR-22, having a blast, I didn’t do this for my VS or TR toons.

    LASTLY, I’ll take a Lasher or Jackhamner any day of the week as a backup as Heavy Assault with ASP. The mini-chaingun sounds like a lawn mower and granted you can get kills, but frankly looks god awful and in my opinion is not fun to use.

    I have given up on TR. Never liked their weapons from original PS when they nerfed them to death, always faced ammo issues with higher rates of fire but small ammo boxes and the nerfs continue.

    I can go on, but I am tired now.
  13. Orakel

    I remember NC&TR crying so hard about old PPA shooting the whole mag exactly on the point w/o any loss => Guess what it got nerfed to an useless weapon ..
  14. Demigan

    ok just a few points:

    1: While Phoenix is annoying when fired from a spawnroom, it's almost only effective from a spawnroom. Rather than complain about it, why don't you try and come up with a solution that disallows the Phoenix from being fired from the Spawn, but makes the Phoenix actually useable outside it? Because currently if you cut off the ability to shoot from spawn it'll become virtually useless outside of high-teamplay.

    2: the "yargh you can shoot one base from another" rethoric is just plain wrong. A single hex is a bit less than 300m, and on Indar for example a quick look revealed not a single spawnroom close enough to shoot another base. Those few bases where it's possible it's not really effective as you'll be at the maximum range and the enemy usually does this thing called "approach from their base", meaning they won't be held up on the side that's attackable with Phoenixes until the base is as good as toast anyway.

    3: Vanguards aren't half as good as claimed, and they zerg just as much as Magriders and Prowlers. The actual performance stats have also always revealed that the Vanguard barely stays ahead in MBT kills per life, while even the Magrider manages to get almost the same amount of MBT kills per life but more kills on other vehicles and infantry. Prowler also outperforms the Vanguard in terms of infantry and vehicle kills and has always traded crowns of best MBT killer with the Vanguard between months. The Vanguard is crap, it's only saving grace is the shield. But that means the shield is mandatory and the moment it goes on cooldown your tank is the worst of the three. I'd rather have the shield removed for some low hardly used ability, but make the base Vanguard actually good enough to go toe-to-toe with the Magrider and Prowler in all aspects. At least that would shut up all the "Iwin shield" whiners.

    4: The NC MAX is probably better, but also highly padded. The TR and VS MAX are used outside of their ideal scenario's because they can, which means their performance stats are "worse" as more die and they get less kills in those not-ideal scenario's. The NC MAX is only useful in very specific scenario's, and spammed to death in those. I say: Give the NC MAX something ranged like the TR and VS have, and give the TR and VS MAX's a shotgun variant. This should shut up everyone as they'll realize how absolutely narrow the usage of the shotguns actually is while giving all MAX's better variability at the cost of faction-specificness.
    • Up x 2
  15. Thardus

    Why do I get the feeling that everyone complaining about the Vanguard's shield sees tank engagements as head on charges, firing straight at each-other the whole time?
    Find a Vanguard, fire a shot or two, then duck out of sight as soon as it pops its shield.
    • Up x 1
  16. pnkdth

    NC wins the most important aspect of PS2 though.

    [IMG]
    • Up x 1
  17. CplRDaWiggy

    Horns OP as ****, please nerf.
  18. grazr


    I thought i mentioned it earlier, but maybe it was just in another thread, but it stands to reason that the Prowler secondary would perform worse if the main cannon performed so well. The Halberd is universal in stats across all factions so there's no real reason for it to perform worse on a Vangaurd than a Prowler or vice versa unless something was preventing it from killing as much and since the main cannon has no issues killing, it can't be that the Prowler isn't just "not performing" as a vehicle overall, but that the over performance of the main cannon prevents the halberd from getting kills. Your point supports my argument.
    • Up x 1
  19. frozen north

    Not necessarily. It certainly signifies which weapon is last hitting in vehicle combat. On the prowler, it's usually the main cannon that scores the victories, though this does depend somewhat on target type.

    But in an AP halberd combo on a vanguard, it's a bit of a different story. Three AP shells, and four halberd rockets will leave any 5K HP vehicle on 50 HP and on fire. That burn is most likely to give the final hit to the halberd rather then the AP cannon. The AP cannon tends to pick up the win against lower HP vehicles, but higher HP ground vehicles tend to be scored by the Halberd, just because of how the reloads work out.

    So while the halberds stats are identical across factions, it's vital to log it's performance, because with most MBT's being run with two man crews, the average between the two weapons becomes the best measure.

    And that averaged out value, at least on AP halberd combos for KDR, is nearly identical for both tanks.
    Prowler AP halberd average KDR: 5.465
    Vanguard AP halberd average KDR: 5.455

    That is a minuscule difference in average KDR. Sadly, that KDR gives no indication as to what targets accounted for the majority of victories.
  20. Demigan

    if it was, then the NS weapons would logically score better on VS and TR than on the NC. If anything, color theory would be more likely. This one for example: http://www.open.edu/openlearn/healt...ess-can-uniform-colour-impact-on-team-success

    Red usually generates a higher win-rate in sports, even "equal" sports, than blue (http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2015/02/red-vs-blue-which-should-you-choose/). This is because it inspires aggression in the wearer, and the one fighting him will feel the aggression towards him. Blue inspires more tactical thinking, which is why in Leage of Legends type of games the blue team has a higher win-rate, as the color blue inspires a more long-term planning tactical gameplay.
    Which would mean that NC would have teamwork/skill up the whazoo compared to the TR and VS. Yet it's the aggressiveness that wins the game almost every time.

    Since NC does not have a lower score with NS/carbon copy weapons, it cannot be the problem of skill or lack of teamwork (or those scores would be lower). It can only be a problem with the NC faction-specific arsenal lacking.