Barrage is opening new prowler's play-style possibilities.

I like some aspects of the new prowler utility: barrage, one of them is the possibility to increase the reload speed while moving, anyways i can argue that it is not enough, 30% reload speed for 15s, a better approach could be 55% during 15s with 40% armor increase to give the opportunity to survive a vanguard with shields up.

It took me some time to learn how to fight 1vs1, distance is our ally, but we are a tank, and we also have to be able to fight at close range, barrage could give us that by increasing our armor.

If you could survive a Shielded Vanguard, you would have the firepower & durability advantage, at the Vanguard's best moment.
Without the Shield; The Faster Prowler, able to charge in, with higher DPS, would be able to overwhelm it in seconds, and if armored, give it better survival than even the Vanguard has.
And the Magrider would then be facing a Prowler that reloads 50% faster, and has 40% more armor than it.


IE, you'd basically have a superior Vanguard shield, with the perks of firepower as well.
Aka, you'd basically create a worse 'I-win' situation.

But is not that what the vanguard use when having the shields up, a "I WIN" button, all tanks are useless for 8s, enough time to get killed, all we can do is try to run and get some cover behind some rocks(if we can), i think it is the way to go, developers can make a better estimate of reload and armor values but it would be a good addition.

Well, having enough armor to survive the entire Vanguard's shield, while also raising your reload speed by 50%;
You have now, raised your Prowler's direct ability to deal damage, and with your armor Boost; Survive everything the Vanguard throw, while dealing more damage to them.

As well, quite literally the Vanguard's shield needs to be changed,
Not make the Prowler able to withstand it, while doubling the prowler's firepower.
As then, the Prowler not only directly counters the NC's tank, it has the same durability, and then it has the 50% reload speed on top.
Imagine if the Vanguard shot twice as fast while shielded.
Now imagine the Prowler who gets an offense boost, getting a defense boost on top; That is what you suggested.

It’s a mixed bag, Main Battle Tanks were meant to originally be a spearhead thrust in ground fighting as exhibited in World War 2 with the Blitzkreig.

The essence has been lost in Planetside 2 of what role a tank should play, because of inadequately designed bases, lack of engineer defenses, putting down 3-5 mines is nothing compared to the original version where you could carpet areas with 20 mines and use jammer grenades to disable vehicles and you had physical doors of the bases that had to be hacked and the spawn rooms could not be camped from a vehicle and you even have infiltrators that could hack vehicles even when occupied. Daybreak is trying to figure out how to use base construction, the reality of it is if the engineers can do their jobs, like upgrade bases turrets and enforce inadequate defenses at pre-existing bases, it could possibly reduce the camping in the big fights.

To be honest one light tank and one MBT is a mere fraction as to the tank choices they could have made with far more optic choices, advanced equipment like TOW missles for air, smoked grenades launchers and even more. Rather than embracing good tanks battles, they nerfed the hell out of them, then made infantry be able to dish the damage, especially from behind. Then to add insult to injury, nerfed the cannons to death where splash damage didn’t matter anymore, but it’s ok, I can aim and hit direct, better than a sniper rifle in many instances.

When the battles are small the only tank that truly shines is the Vanguard, because it can take the most damage and last a few more seconds than the other tanks. Once the battles get big and movement becomes restricted, your tank is generally worthless.

The Prowler is a medium tank that excels at nothing, but it’s better than a Magrider.

#1 choice is Vanguard
#2 Prowler
#3 Magrider

Would you like be the people who get nuked by a tank shell fired at a hundred meters+, since it landed the shot on the ground 20 meters away?
Or be the tanker hit by a one-shot kill long range TOW missile by an ESF that was visible for a second?

Or deal with the literal cloud of tank mines a single squad could lay, thrown out by a Valk over every single road?

Or try to use a MBT, with enemy stalkers in the field, ejecting you from your vehicle, or just straight hacking the AMS Buses?
There also is a lot of smoke available.
Would you like to be any of the things that would be hit by these weapons?

As, 'good tank battles', if that means Infantry are removed of their IRL ability to be a threat with AT-Weapons, while you splatter across the walls entire squads with a single shot..
Then thank ****.
If not, then you'll likely get better results, if you explained it, since implications are "TOW missiles, Instant-kill-splash" and the like.

I am not a planetside developer and they can do better at balancing the prowler armor and reload speed but definitely we need an armor increase when barrage is active to survive the vanguard i win utility.

I don't think they can balance Having both Firepower & Defensive Armor Bonuses on the tank with the highest DPS..
When everyone complains about a tank with the lowest fire-rate, and lowest DPS, having a short-lived armor bonus.

Given the Prowler would then have no reason to fear charging in, with the highest possible DPS boosted by an ability, that also reduces the entire risk involved in charging.
NC gets flak for the Vanguard just getting the armor effect; And you want to give both Armor & DPS boosts to the Prowler's ability.

As well, You do not need to Survive a slug-fest with the Vanguard with their Active Shield.
You already win when the Shield is absent\On-Recharge.
The entire point of the Vanguard is the endurance trait caused by the Shield.
If the Prowler can quite literally power-through the shield, by itself.. The Shield is completely useless in any regard to TR.
VS itself, would also be facing a Tank that raises its own armor value while boosting their Reload speed & DPS by 50%

What tank is meant to survive the Prowler, if it can boost every stat by speed on demand?
You have an issue with the Vanguard's shield, not being bested by a straight DPS booster..
And you want to basically have the Shield yourself, and still keep the straight DPS Booster.

You don't want the shield changed, You want to quite literally make Barrage, A better shield while keeping everything it originally brought.
Barrage gives TR's Prowler, a massive increase to their DPS, on the tank with the highest DPS.
If your change happens, the Prowler will also have the highest Armor while having the game's highest DPS for a tank cannon.
The Vanguard only can take more hits for a short period with the shield: Your Prowler can do that, and out-DPS everything with your change.

The Vanguard Shield would be a paperweight if TR's Barrage would armor the tank & boost the reload speed.
As that is literally ensuring the Prowler kills anything, and survives everything.
The Vanguard's Shield is OP given it allows survival over all, while available; It doesn't let them out-DPS everything let alone at the same bloody time.


Aka:
Barrage does not need to make the Prowler, a damn super-tank whenever active.

Prowler barrage is more powerful than Vanguard shield.

If a prowler and vanguard meet front-to-front and activate their utilities, the Vanguard will take 67% less damage for 8 secs while the prowler dishes out about 27%* more damage for 15 secs. 27% more damage over 15 secs is about the same as 50% more damage over 8 secs, giving the Vanguard an advantage of just 17% damage reduction.

But that's the maths - in the game the weaker, more long lasting buff is advantageous by reducing reliance on alpha. You don't need to time utility activation with the firing of the opponent but your own. If the prowler was to hide when the vanguard activated its shield it could resurface 8 seconds later and enjoy the remaining 7 sec of the buff. In other words it has more tactical possibilities.

Furthermore that's just the front-to-front scenario, and with side-to-side or back-to-back positioning the prowler has the numeric advantage.

*3% is subtracted since barrage gives a reload buff and prowler takes 0.5 sec to fire both of its barrels

I have run the calculation before, and unfortunately, the prowler can never win a head to head clash if a vanguard pops it's shield. This is made more true by an error in your assumptions. 27% more DPS over 15 seconds also means only 27% more DPS over 8 seconds. Changing the time frame does not adjust the percent DPS buff.

Look, I ran the math with the prowler running anchored mode at one time. Anchored mode combined with a maxed out reload buff gave just short of a 60% net reload buff ( 58% to be precise). Head to head, vanguard had the advantage. An AP halberd prowler with maxed reload buffs and anchored mode, the required TTK was 12 seconds against a vanguard that popped it's shield, since you could only ever squeeze about 2k damage through the shield during the 8 seconds. Current time, with barrage, is about 15 seconds if the shield is deployed.

The vanguard, running AP halberd, and if it packs reload buffs, can guaranteed defeat any enemy tank in 10.8 seconds.

Cool story.

So what does the Magrider get since you get additional reload and armour? Just curious, cause, y'know, balance and all that annoying stuff...

The total extra damage of a 27% buff over 15 secs is the same as a 50% buff over 8 secs. It was mainly to compare the shield vs the barrage strength.

Also that the prowler can never win is complete BS. The stock Vanguard has a TTK of 18.75 secs against a prowler or 16.25 with maxed out reload speed. Front-to-front, the prowler is superior in scenarios without a gunner:

Scenario 1: Stock Prowler AP (0.5 secs to fire, 3.5 secs to reload)

• 0.5 sec - 2 rounds fired
• 4.5 sec - 4 rounds fired
• 8.5 sec - 6 rounds fired
• 12.5 sec - 8 rounds fired
• 16.5 sec - 10 rounds fired -> dead stock Vanguard
• 20.5 sec - 12 rounds fired -> dead shielded Vanguard

Scenario 2: Stock Prowler AP Barrage (0.5 secs to fire, 2.45 secs to reload)

• 0.5 sec - 2 rounds fired
• 3.45 sec - 4 rounds fired
• 6.4 sec - 6 rounds fired
• 9.35 sec - 8 rounds fired
• 12.3 sec - 10 rounds fired -> dead stock Vanguard
• 15.25 sec - 12 rounds fired -> dead shielded Vanguard

In scenario 1 we can see that a stock prowler wins against a stock vanguard at 16.5 secs. In fact the Vanguard is totally dependent on either a maxed out reload or shield in order to have a chance. In scenario 2 the vanguard has no chance at all even with a maxed out reload and shield. The prowler doesn't even need to have upgrade reload speed, which would only decrease the TTK further:

Scenario 3: Certed Prowler AP Barrage (0.5 secs to fire, 2.1 secs to reload)

• 0.5 sec - 2 rounds fired
• 3.1 sec - 4 rounds fired
• 5.7 sec - 6 rounds fired
• 8.3 sec - 8 rounds fired
• 10.9 sec - 10 rounds fired -> dead stock Vanguard
• 13.5 sec - 12 rounds fired -> dead shielded Vanguard

It should be noted that in scenario 3 the prowler should allow a small pause of < 0.5 secs against a perfectly timed shield activation. If the shield takes 7 hits, the total number of rounds needed to kill the vanguard is increased to 13 which would necessitate another reload (TTK: 15.6 secs).

IOW the days of the "I win" button are long gone and stolen by TR

Check with secondary weapons included for both sides. Given that single manning an MBT is not exactly efficient ( your better off with a lightning at that point), comparing the math when secondaries are factored in is critical. Since the halberd is the most common for AT purposes, it's the one I used in my original calculations. It's single shot nature and lack of falloff also make it a reliable comparison source.

Then the Vanguard has a leeway of < 1 sec.

Scenario 4: Certed Vanguard AP w. Certed Halberd

• 0 sec - 1 AP + 1 Halberd
• 2.75 sec - 2 Halberd
• 3.25 sec - 2 AP
• 5.5 sec - 3 Halberd
• 6.5 sec - 3 AP
• 8.75 sec - 4 Halberd
• 9.75 sec - 4 AP = 3400 + 2400 = 5800 DMG total

Scenario 5: Certed Prowler AP Barrage w. Certed Halberd

• 0 sec - 1 Halberd
• 0.5 sec - 2 AP
• 2.75 sec - 2 Halberd
• 3.1 sec - 4 AP
• 5.5 sec - 3 Halberd
• 5.7 sec - 6 AP
• 8.3-8.5 sec - 8 AP
• 8.75 sec - 4 Halberd
• 10.4-10.6 sec - 9 AP

At 8 secs the shield has reduced the DMG of 9 rounds to the equivalent of 6, so the Prowler may take a 0.2 sec break against a perfectly timed shield. That's why the remaining secs are shown as 8.3-8.5. At 8.75 secs the prowler has done more than 5000 DMG - enough to kill a "shielded" magrider. So if there is any form of attrition involved such that the Vanguard does not benefit from its increased health pool it is dead then.

3 rounds equivalent. The damage reduction provided by the shield is 67% of all frontal damage. Running off your timing numbers for reloads, and assuming proper shield timing, the total damage possible to get through the shield is 1200 for the AP cannon, and 600 from the halberd. 1800 damage, over the course of eight seconds ( if we are on the assumption that the delay of 0.2 seconds was used).

Which actually means based on your scenario 5, that vanguard is still kicking. After 10.6 seconds, it's still got 1800 HP left. Even if the prowler fires that tenth shell, it's still got another 1200 left to go through of it's opponent. That adds an extra 2.6 seconds to the prowlers TTK time, since it needs a tenth and eleventh AP shell to accompany it's fifth halberd.

That puts the optimum TTK at 13.2 seconds. If you don't take the 0.2 second delay, then the the total is 13.5 seconds since you would need the twelfth AP shell.

That gives the Vanguard an advantage of between 3.45, and 3.75 seconds if the delay is taken advantage of and if it isn't respectively.

You're right **facepalm**. That also pushes the 1 on 1 TTKs upwards to 19+ secs.

Scenario 5: Certed Prowler AP Barrage w. Certed Halberd
10.9-11.1 sec - 10 AP
11.5 sec - 5 Halberd
13-13.2 sec 11 AP -> done (9*0.33 + 7)*600=5982 DMG, rest done by burning

Scenario 1: Stock Prowler AP (0.5 secs to fire, 3.5 secs to reload)
24 sec - 13 rounds fired -> dead shielded Vanguard

Scenario 2: Stock Prowler AP Barrage (0.5 secs to fire, 2.45 secs to reload)
18.2 sec - 14 rounds fired -> slow reload begins?
22.7 sec - 15 rounds fired -> dead shielded Vanguard

Scenario 3: Certed Prowler AP Barrage (0.5 secs to fire, 2.1 secs to reload)
16.1 sec - 14 rounds fired -> slow reload begins
19.1 sec - 15 rounds fired -> dead shielded Vanguard

Yeah. There's a reason I consider the Vanguard to have the better buff. In scenario 1, a shielded AP Vanguard beats an AP Prowler ( assuming perfect accuracy for both parties), and a HESH Vanguard matches. Scenario 2 is again in favor of the shielded AP Vanguard. Scenario 3, if we assume the AP Vanguard is equivalently certed, wins again, since its TTK at that point is only 16.25 seconds.

Heck, in the good old Scenario 5, the Vanguard wins without reload buffs. It just doesn't have room for error now.

The only time a prowler can go into a head to head brawl and expect to win against an equivalently equipped vanguard is when the vanguards shield is on cool down for the entire engagement.

A vanguard always needs 6 shots to kill a prowler even from the side. A prowler needs just 9 side hits: 600*1.15*9=6210 and so has faster TTK stock.

If both vehicles are certed and deploys utilities, the prowler wins a side-to-side scenario too. 6 rounds will have reduced damage from the shield, and the prowler needs 11 rounds total: 600*(1.15 - 0.33)*6 + 600*1.15*5 = 6402 DMG. Some skilled prowler drivers will drive up to the Vanguard's side in order to prevent it from turning before decimating it.

With gunners its a different story again. Then the Vanguard needs 6.5 secs to fire three AP rounds and 3 Halberds (850*1.15*3 + 600*1.15*3 = 5002.5 DMG), while the prowler needs 12 rounds total if 9 are reduced by the shield, taking at least 8.75 secs.

All of these

I think part of the problem you're having here is in assuming all the shots hit. The Prowler has better DPS, it also sacrifices less DPS when range firing since A) it has two shots and B) has a shorter reload. A missed Vangaurd shot is significant because it isn't A) dealing that massive damage and B) is reloading for longer.

The Vangaurd shield is situational and reactionary and often times made redundant by an enemy player simply choosing not to engage the shield. Barrage is a decisive alpha attack.

I don't think anyone would honestly argue the Vangaurd wasn't, if only marginally, the superior MBT on paper. But practically speaking the Prowler and Magriders perform beyond their stats as a result of their passive perks that cannot be reasonably measured. Mitigating damage 100% through 2 dimensional movement or mitigating human error through superior DPS and number of shots available... The Vangaurd was designed to flank and brawl and yet on 2 of the 4 continents the terrain prevents this being taken advantage of in any meaningful way; additionally, brawling is made hazardous by several orders of magnitude since buffing the AV capability of infantry, especially LA.

This is pretty consistent across all NC weapons to be honest. The high damage looks really amazing on paper, but the reality is your DPS sucks because your RoF sucks and that really high damage probably wont actually connect because of the horrific recoil. Probably why NC has such a high player turnover, the guns are cumbersome and actually more nuanced than most people care to consider.

But to be honest, whilst the NC have the worst ESF i think it can be afforded "the best" MBT.