[Vehicle] The vanguard question(s)

why do i give a rats rectum what you believe vs what im putting up with in game every day since they were released? I should have recorded the game today, absolutely unbelieveable.

It is beyond a joke. the closeness of all the bases in this game, the speed of the flash, and the fact you can pull a flash without even running to a termina (dont forget that part) means that if you somehow manage to survive, they will be back shooting you again, just as you have gotten to a position to repair. and they can do this FOREVER. absolutely horrendous balancing.

So you mean you used your FANTASTICALLY superior maneuverability against the slowest tank in the game to position yourself directly in front of it?

Stupid thing to do, but ok.... Magburn past it.

You'll both be facing away from each other and need to maneuver again. By that time the shield will be down and will remain down for the remainder of the engagement.


My point in all this: I'm constantly baffled by this helpless attitude about the shield. It lasts for seconds then is done with. It is so simple to defeat...simply pause the battle. All you gotta do is shuck and jive. Most tank battles I see are a trade off where people are vying to be the one stationary with their upcoming shots already bracketed in. Dodging is fairly easy but the maneuvers make it difficult to make a shot. Welll.... if the other guy has a shield, who cares if you make your shot? Just move so you BOTH miss until the shield is over.

At long range: move so you both miss until the shield is over.
At medium range where moving might not be enough to cause a miss: break LOS.
At short range: Again... slowest tank in game, you did what??

You have to pull this off for a whopping 8 seconds. This is assuming a 1v1. In group action it's even easier. Just train fire to an unshielded tank for a moment, come back and focus fire the shield guy the moment it goes down. It's even a self-focusing target, "hey guys, focus fire on shield tank when it goes down".

All 3 Tanks are balanced now... Vanguard have a Nerf™ gun... Magrider is a slow crab... and Prowler is a paper cannon...
Works nice... Untill they are surrounded by 3 Harassers...

"I still think Harassers should be OHK by AP shells... but... It's an alien world... who knows"

That's great. You end up right in front(which is like 30 meters...not 3. I mean, let's be realistic.). The guys in the tank can aim(it's odd how in case of magriders all NC and TR suddenly pretend that they can't hit a house...so there is no chance to hit the magrider). And let's say the vanguard crew actually manages to hit the magrider on 30m(I know, borderline impossible for vanguard crews. But let's say they get darn lucky. Like winning the lottery lucky, you know.). Now the magrider can turn around...slow as it is...and magburn away, hoping the vanguard crew will not hit the rear with their second round(they would need to get twice as lucky as winning the lottery after all)...or they magburn past the vanguard. The later one helps the magrider a lot, since we all know that the vanguards primary can't rotate, unlike the magrider(which has a highly mobile primary cannon that can shoot in all directions without even having to move!). So the magrider got that option. Now imagine the vanguard would have the rotating turret and could just follow the magrider and shoot it in the rear without of even moving. That would be unfair(okay, the vanguard crew would still have to be twice as lucky as winning the lottery to line up two shots, a fact we established before already). Fortunately it ain't like that.

Now let's say in your zerg example not just the magriders would have some communication going but the NC too(unlikely, I know. It's always just the others with the perfect behaviour and performance). Let's say they would all pop their shields at the same time. Before the shield is done you lost several magriders(you know, those that didn't make it behind the magical mountains that ALWAYS appear from nowhere right next to magriders whenever they have a tank fight against ANY other faction), how shall the VS overcome that numerical disadvantage?

This text might have some sarcasm in it...let's see if you can find it. ;-)

Regardless of how it is being used now, it is potentially gamebreaking. I'll spare you the details, but the DPS per fire and reload cycle of an unupgraded starfall is comparable to a fully upgraded (including reload speed) AP Prowler. That is not including the relatively easy time a flash has to get flanking/rear damage. The flash is killing a lightning in 1 reload cycle, killing it under 5 seconds. You know what else kills under 5 seconds? Well not one of the MBT, unless its a Prowler fully upgraded with a barrage.

A simgle user can dish out so much damage for low cert cost. You might say it's balanced around it's low health, but I didagree. The moment teamwork is used, these things can combat zergs. Take 6 of them and you can go through 4 MBT or 6 lightnings of choice under 5 seconds. Each killed with one salvo of respectively 3 and 2 flashes. It is for most people not enough to effectively react in the momentary confusion, if noticed at all by tunnel visioned drivers. If the reaction time is slow, they could eat through more tanks without the need of cloacking and repositioning.

Would 6 2/2 MBT give you the same option? Not at all. They can be spotted, depending on load out auto detected, harassed easily beforehand, quickly be forced to engage before they arrive at optimum positions and more, all the while representing a higher cert cost and nanite cost.

The starfall is now active sparingly as there aren't many flash drivers, not everyone has the gun and people seem uncomfortable on a potentially one hit ko vehicle, but tgat can change when the potential is seen.

Hell I was roaming with another VS lightning in some fields around Eisa tech battling tanks and one starfall flash was using our distraction to flank, doing more damage and raking up much more kills than either of us lightnings. That isn't what I call balanced.

Would it break the game to give empire-specific abilities to each of the MBT's as just a given like they did the prowler?
Just give Vanguards the shield, just give Magriders the boost. Then have another form of faction-specific utility they could equip?

Oh, potentially game breaking like lasher and lancer, you mean? I still wonder where all those killer squads are...I never see them. Potential alone means nothing as it seems.

Yeah great save. Referencing things I neither care about nor ever said. You know, a discussion is often about a topic and then rhetoric on the same topic. Not ignoring all arguments and trying to show your right by referencing something unrelated.

If you don't come with counter arguments, I have no inclination to think of you as remotely worth listening to.

Oh right. If you complain about something that has the potential to become a problem if used in groups some day(according to you), then it is no counter argument to list other things that may have the potential to become a problem if used in groups for like 3 years already...and never really turned out to be a problem.

Keep complaining and calling for nerfs for things that may become a problem some day...and distract from op stuff that you encounter in about every fight in the game today. Like striker, like scatmax, like vanguard shield, like harassers(they actually hunt down tanks all over the place)...

Clearly I don't share your sentiment about lashers and lancer, yet you keep hammering on it. If you want to make that an argument to me, you clearly have to explain the parallels and of course why it mitigates my concerns. I mean I've lived through the killer squads of lancers when they were still incredibly powerful and long range. After adjustments I've only seen large goups of it using it to great effectiveness once or twice. The potential for game breaking has gone down so much it's not really game breaking anymire, but a possible effective tool in the hands of organised squads. That's it for me. You see? Arguments supporting an opinion. Done.

But no, you don't give any explanation. It isn't even clear if you think lasher and lancer are gamebreaking or not! On the other hand, I've voiced my concerns on the time invested for certs, time invested for nanites, amount of people needed to be effective and the effectiveness and more for the starfall flash. If you truly have arguments against it, lets have it! Show it to me! I'm willing to change my opinion if I see well rounded arguments! But none of this distracting people by saying I'm distracting them. It is a lazy tactic without substance if you haven't backed anything up with arguments.

Let's get it as straight as I can: Flash IS not a problem as of now. We can discuss about it when it really turns out that there are more flashes hunting MBTs than Harassers. We are far from that.
If you see a flash once in a while then fine...cause it was completely useless before and got only used as quick transportation unit for infils.

Ah now we're getting more to the point! Still not a good argument though. Even though I didn't explicitly state it, I should hope my concerns for a single user were clear. And again, I gave lots of arguments (cert costs, nanite costs, amount of damage it can dish out with relative ease) while you just state "I don't think so". So again, if you don't think so, give the arguments. If the thing isn't too powerful, surely there are good arguments for that. And even if they might not convince me, I can still respect your different opinion. Sonething which is 0 for now.

Besides that, I see a fundamental thought difference. Something that is potentially OP but not at the moment should always be considered for change. The Striker when it first came out wasn't gamebreaking when 2 or 3 people had it, but within a day it was locking down amy vehicle fight in an insane radius. If it was exclusive the first few weeks or months, makimgbit rare, should we do nothing to tame it before sh*t hits the fan? From my profession I say no. You watch for problems and solve them as quickly as possible. Otherwise 2 warring factions will emerge, one wanting it gone and others not wanting to give up their toy and lots of people will be disappointed whatever you do. In addition, you don't have to focus everything on one thing at a time. You can try to solve harassers at the same time as well. And what I don't understand is rhat you mention a harasser as a problem, while it requires 2 people for good effectiveness, costs 3 times as much and is often doing worse in TTK and DPS than the flash! If anything, the parallels with the harassers are quite big, being increased to ridiculous in damage output, flanking capabilities, stealth, nanite cost and amount of people used, while the smaller cross section is only killed off quicker on a direct hit and the gun has lesser turn ratio.

So now that I've repeated enough arguments, please show me why you think the blasted starfall flash is no biggie and we shouldn't act before it gets out of hand.

To not to forget to comment on the main thread, here it is:

I think the shield has to go. Regardless of how it only barely keeps the tank in combat shape or you think it's OP as hell, it keeps any discussion stale and won't move the tank in a better direction. Replace it with something completely different so people won't feel cheated out of a victory. Depending on the replacing ability you can improve the base tank, making it better rounded in comparison with the rest.

Things you can consider are temporary boosts to the bullets, like one or a combination of higher velocity, punching through tanks or higher damage, to things like a extra damage dealer, like a rocket barrage, to temporarily phasing parts of the tank, effectively reducing the hitbox to suggest something outlandish.

So shield gone, increase base tank, different ability. You can also consider multiple abilities like the prowler by deploying as well and giving some boost or gimmick.

Could just skip the abiltities and make it the most tank tank, no gimmicks, straight great HP, good damage, good traction.
No floaty crap, no rapid fire memes, no shields, just tank.

I did hear some talk about simply giving the vanguard a regenerating shield or giving back its frontal armor.

I pretty much stopped pulling Vanguard entirely after they nerfed its health, resistance, repair rate, DPS, and shield, when it was already the worst-performing of the 3 MBTs, statistically.

That kind of "balance" decision making makes zero sense to me.

2 noteable threads on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/9084d9/starfall_fury_basilisk_prowler_version/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/907m5x/starfall_fury_basilisk_side_by_side_comparison/

Basicly they are about whether fury or starfall is better(and fury has been around for a darn long time without of seeing much use). This includes which gun has shorter TTK(vs the Prowler from the side it's the fury, for example). That people need to take fire supression into account(which means you need another reload for starfall. I mean, about every tanker has it these days.)....or that you can not kill passengers if they leave the vehicle with a starfall while a fury can take care of that. Check it out...

You just said all vanguards take shields, everyone else in this thread said you need to take the shield to even be considered viable, but you wanna tell me that suddenly vanguards FS instead?

Starfall in those clips still had the better deal out of all of them. You can drop all your damage and then come about for the second salvo to kill a tank without them being none the wiser because you aren't using a fury and have to maintain damage on them.

Why the **** would I care about the crew? I just killed their 450 nanite tank with their tank supporting engie builds, they are effectively out of the fight.

The Vanguard Excels at nothing, but makes a great smoldering wreck when you play Vanu or Terran.

Once in a blue moon I’ll get a Vanguard own me if they are point blank at me with AP cannon and I am running a Hesh for main cannon or if they get the jump on me with a gunner but it’s rare.

The tank is clunky, chunky and the least desirable vehicle in the game in my opinion.

I take your word for it you magrider hero. Now show us a clip of a decent vanguard pilot getting owned by you if you are not on the other end of the map...;-)

@Laughingdead: If the crew jumps out they can STILL kill you before the second salvo...but you can't kill them. It's odd how your side is always full of idiots(blind, do not jump out, always have all their cannons in the wrong direction) while the enemies play it perfectly(100% accuracy. Always attacking the rear. Never showing up in front of any of your cannons.). Pro vs noob...and you call for a nerf cause the noob doesn't win. Congrats.

Then pull another ******* flash with the 50 resources you just regenerated.

You're telling me that the crew, jumped out, 180d and then headshot you to death before you could cloak and move?
I'd ******* clap for that crew. They were actually good at the gunplay, almost like people should be rewarded for that or something.
Instead of being rewarded for a 50 nanite vehicle that can come out of cloak and remove 50% of the toughest MBTs HP bar whenever it feels like.