Spammable crouching has to go!

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Naskoni, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. DrPapaPenguin

    Its when you rapidly hit A and D keys in succession, to dash side to side.
  2. DemonicTreerat

    Its less about the "dodging" but that all that movement, especially when coupled with lag, often makes it impossible to consistently land hits on the spammer due to their warping all over as your client tries to figure out where they actually are. All the while client side hit detection means the spammer has no problem hitting you.

    Oh and those who say "but everyone can do it". People said Surgile was fine in PS1 because "everyone can do it" too. Except they forgot it really only worked when coupled with a connection that could be severely throttled on demand to induce warping. In the end the developers agreed with the majority who lacked the ability to selective throttle a connection and the lack of scruples to say "hey this probably isn't intended so I better not use it" and put the screws to Surgile by removing the ability to have weapons out when that implant was in use. The developers here might just say screw you guys driving away paying customers and put some serious inertia (aka a cool down) on the ability to use strafing and crouching.

    Not that I mind. Good planning should always come out over mental midgets who have to abuse a limitation of the game to make themselves feel successful.
    • Up x 2
  3. Tankalishious

    the problem isnt the manual ADAD spammers(except for really laugh situatuons/servers), the problem REALLY is the ****heads that has a Adadadcrouchadadcrouchupcrouchupadad macro-**** on one button and just facerolls it non stop. the lag,server and client goes completely WTFWHEREISTHISCHARACTER-mode and craps on you as you die to ghost-hitboxes....
    there has to be done something about it, the plague is spreading slow but gaining speed...
    • Up x 1
  4. Rydenan

    Agreeing with your last statement, lagswitching and/or intentionally throttling a connection can also be used to make bullet damage register late on the victim's side. Does that mean we should remove bullets and guns? It allows you to shoot from behind cover without popping out on the victim's side. Remove cover?
    Well obviously, no. Balancing around edge-case abusers is never a good strategy, because everything that exists in the game likely can be abused one way or another if the person is motivated enough to do so.

    Contrary to popular belief, pressing ADAD reallllllly fast is not that effective. If you press ADAD super-duper fast, even if the opponent's client has trouble keeping up, you're only deviating in position by very small amounts. In other words, you stay mostly stationary in your opponent's eyes.
    The ideal speed is a medium and random one; something which is easily achievable with fingers. Not to mention that dodging manually allows you the freedom of adaptation to adjust your moves to the engagement. Many times I've won engagements by specifically reading and countering the opponent's movements. Something you cannot do with a pre-written macro.
    • Up x 1
  5. Sade707

    I'm very new but the only times I crouch would be running cover to cover. Only crouching when I actually reach cover.
  6. Pelojian

    the issue isn't with using crouch as it is intended the issue is when people crouch spam to avoid getting shot in the head, while they get headshots on their opponent, esp those that use macros to do so.
  7. adamts01

    Macro has nothing to do with "reallllllly fast" regarding dodging. Once you find the perfect timing and combination then just set the macro to that. That way the player can dodge for days while all his attention is on shooting, with a net positive bloom thanks to crouching.
    • Up x 2
  8. Rydenan

    So the problem is that some players are using macros for.. convenience?
    Players can also use a click macro to fire their semiauto weapon for them, so they can 'focus their attention on aiming', if that's their cup o' tea.
    Players can use a throttle/turn macro while flying so that they can do things like reverse turns while keeping their focus on aiming.
    Players can use a macro to switch to medpak, use medpak, and switch back to primary weapon with one click so that they can keep their focus on the game.

    TL;DR: this sounds like a 100% non-issue to me.
    • Up x 1
  9. FateJH

    What if irregular timing of a normal user behavior was a factor in the design of a weapon? I mean, why else would you, in the case of semi-automatics, as your example, design a weapon that people have to carefully time button presses to achieve the on-the-box DPS unless that was an aspect of the weapon's skill factor?
    • Up x 4
  10. Rydenan

    The fire rate of semiautomatic weapons is not subject to irregularity, but almost every other aspect of the game is.
    Why not remove flanking, too, since that's a feature of the game that is based on irregular user behavior, and strongly affects the outcome of engagements?
  11. DemonicTreerat


    He's one of those guys whining about how "OP" the Phoenix was when the NC were pulling in enmasse. Anything he says can be safely discarded as a very biased idiot trying to keep his "skill" (aka macro's/ cheats) intact while removing things that require the ability to think beyond "which target do I shoot at next".
  12. FateJH

    If you re-press the fire button before the refire time for a semi-automatic, it will not shoot the next bullet until re-pressed again after the refire time is up. This typically causes the weapon to fire slower than the listed RPM and thus lowers the DPS. If you wait longer than the refire time to make certain you can shoot when you press, your DPS lowers all the same. Unless you're a machine, keeping this meticulous pace is part of the difficulty of using semi-automatic weapons.

    While the timing has been more lenient compared to the earlier game, the consideration still remains.
    You mistake. I am condemning the machine (the marco) not the mechanic (semi-automatic).
    • Up x 2
  13. adamts01

    There's inherent skill to any button pressing we do, and things are balanced around a human controlling those buttons, as FateJH put so well. Macros bypass that skill, can do what humans can't, and can essentially break the game. As for ADADcrouch or whatever, there's often a perfect speed at which the game/server can't handle things, and maintaining that rate is only possible with a macro. The Division has been plagued with this problem since launch, which is a considerable reason for its PvP failing so terribly, that and it's an RPG shooter. Anyway, I don't argue against macros because there's no real way to combat their use, so instead I argue against the end result of what they can do. If the server can't keep up with ADADADcrouch spam, then limit the ability to do that, macro or not. And you do see this problem in game quite often, people sidestepping at a much faster rate than should be possible. That's not necessarily due to a macro, but ADADAD spam combined with this game's latency does cause problems. Anyway, another way to look at it is similar to how we look at bunny hopping. Bunny hopping leads to pretty cheesy and silly gameplay. Is it skillful? Sure, but cheesy and silly no less. So jumping is tied to a stamina system in PS2, and I argue that so should ADADADcrouch spam.
    • Up x 3
  14. Rydenan

    That's completely inaccurate. Pressing fire at any time after a shot is fired will 'queue up' the next shot to be fired, and the gun will automatically fire once the next round is chambered.
    Try it for yourself in-game. Grab the slowest-firing semi-auto you can find, and press the trigger twice in rapid succession. The gun will fire twice.

    But even if what you said were true, what would your solution be? You can't remove macros. Remove semi-automatic weapons?
    This brings us to my point about why balancing around what can and cannot be macro'd is a poor strategy.

    Sure, using macros is essentially a crutch. But it's a pretty benign one, like using an on-screen overlay. It's not allowing players to do something they couldn't otherwise feasibly do (provided they had the skill to do so).
  15. Rydenan

    As I replied to FateJH, I won't argue that using macros isn't lamentable. But removing gameplay because it can be macro'd is a terrible design move. In order to be consistent, you'd have to remove 80% of the game.

    You suggested putting ADAD on a stamina system. So there are only two logical results: either stamina isn't enough to have an adverse effect on ADADing during 1v1s, or it is, and ADADing is effectively 'deleted' as the OP wanted.
    What's next? You said you want to combat macros by restricting the aspects of the game they can be applied to. Nerf semi-auto weapons? Nerf ability slots? Nerf vehicles?
    All because a small percentage of the playerbase may be gaining a tiny advantage (and most certainly not the same advantage as someone who has genuinely developed the mechanical skill) by using some macros?
  16. LordKrelas

    They are keen to limit the spammability, not remove it.
    Recall what happens if you jump excessively in-game presently.
    • Up x 1
  17. Rydenan

    Sorry, I posted my reply before it was finished. See my previous point about how it will either be made non-viable, or left viable.
    Many viable strategies that can be learned legitimately will need to be 'limited' (nerfed) because they can be macro'd. Leaving those strategies non-viable for the legitimate players because of an unknown, but undoubtedly extremely small, percentage of players who allegedly use macros.
  18. LordKrelas

    When the ADAD macro is faster than the latency system can handle, it becomes a problem.
    Macros for firing weapons, aren't as abusable as the ADAD problem.

    And you seem to be panicking hard over ADAD being macro'ed, or similar being insanely fast past practical, being limited...
    as "Nerf vehicles" over macro's? Jesus.
    What part of macro'ed ADAD spam is all that tactical?
    It's more likely to be restricted so manually doing it, achieves the wanted, while the macro's run the risk of hitting the limit.
    Which also means latency is less helpful to the ADAD spam tactic to dodge bullets like the matrix.
  19. adamts01

    It's all personal preference for the most part. I personally hate bunny hopping and ADAD spam, but I acknowledge the skill it takes and that many people love it. I think PS2 should move away from CoD and towards being more of a simulator, but that's just my opinion. Where I draw the line is using a tactic to exploit server latency. For example, setting your ping to a limit where you know you'll be warping on your enemy's screen when you ADAD.
    • Up x 1
  20. Rydenan

    As discussed earlier in this thread, the general consensus is that macroing ADAD does not give better latency-abuse potential than ADADing manually.

    ADAD is no more difficult for the "latency system" (whatever that is, hah) to handle than normal movement or other gameplay events. Unless you have some enlightening footage of ADAD breaking the movement and/or hitbox system?